a month into being EM owners and we picked up a 2nd one :D

[WalnutCrest]

<snip>

I met someone that has the male pictured "hugos" daughter on a fb group that female according to them is 230@ 2 yrs old. My chin hit the keyboard.

Is there a "BS" emoticon? A 230lb bitch Mastiff would be phenomenally rare. I can think of three or four and I've been in Mastiffs nearly 20yrs.

So when I asked Gayle parent weights of this pups that im getting thats what she told me. Out of the 8 females she had the female picture d is double the size and her male hugo is literally the size of a lion. I cant argue weights bc I didnt see proof but bone/muscle weighs much more then fat.

The male has fine bone, no depth of chest, no width of chest, no depth of flank. He is a small Mastiff ... even if he's tall ... and even if he's bigger than most every other dog you've seen. He is not a substantial Mastiff.

While closer to being substantial, the dam is also fine-boned and her chest is not particularly wide or deep.

Again, you're not alone in relying on a breeders' assessment of a bitch or stud and their weight ... I did it when I bought my first Mastiff. You're not alone.

So not knowing heights of animals widenths ect I find it really hard to judge from a picture. Meeting these guys in person..promise you biggest dogs ive ever seen. I never even knew they got that big!

Yup ... even poorer specimens (phenotypically) are huge! And, even if they're poor phenotypes, they can be (and often are) wonderful companion pets....

...but I picked him out from 3 litters she has.

WHAT?!?!?!

She has three litters on the ground at the same time?!

...a huge red flag on the breeders' motives...

He just called my name.

The first pup (a sheltie) I ever had just did the same thing to me...I picked the runt out of a litter when I was five years old and could NOT be talked out of him.

Weve had a few hiccups in this transaction. Plus she extremely hard to reach so Im deffinitly weary and beginning to feel like I will be more selective when it comes to breeders 10 yrs down the road when shopping is near

Please be picky about your breeder. If you find the right breeder, you will eventually have the right dog.

After my first Mastiff pup, which I purchased from a back-yard-breeder with very questionable morals/ethics (but, I didn't know any better as I hadn't really done much more than a few weeks of research), I took my time when it was time to get another one. In fact, I took about two years of research before getting another pup. I wanted to do it 'right'.

Well, I got a great male ... but, even then, he wasn't what I was hoping for as he matured (his pelvis tilts forward, resulting in a croup that is too steep ... and he has too much dewlap, among a few other things). So, despite that I've been asked by others to allow them to breed to him several times, I've turned them all down. He doesn't have the phenotype I want.

Fast forward another two years ... and that's when we got our lovely Jade...she's a winner in the show ring, a winner in the home, a winner with the family and our other animals. And, she's a good mama (the two pups from her first litter just turned 1yr old two days ago).

If you don't know what I'm talking about, re: too much dewlap, steep croup, etc., then know you probably shouldn't get any more Mastiffs until you learn about it. It'll make you a better Mastiff lover -- the more you know about them (proper structure, etc.), the more you can care for (and love) them.

Welcome to the addiction! HA!!

 

[DonnieH]

Yes, in general a bigger dog is going to have more issues. Not always, but in general. And if they have issues, they're probably harder to deal with because of the weight.

Things I've done to try to avoid health issues:

• Not neuter before two years
• Feed a good quality kibble (or raw would probably be better)
• Don't overfeed, keep them lean and fit
• Try to get them to grow at a slow steady pace
• Don't feed too much calcium (< 1.6%, and keep calcium to phosporus ratio at 1.2%
• For the first year or so try to keep jumping, stair climbing and other jarring movements to a minimum
• Get them a moderate amount of excercise

Those are all of the things I'm doing specifically for the betterment of my boy's health.

As for weights, yes it's difficult to judge weight by a pic, but that male looks way too healthy, fit and trim to be 270. He could have a huge frame, but even then he looks too thin (a very healthy looking thin) to weigh that much. Now if the pic is old, he certainly could have filled out from then and could weigh 270 now, but I don't think he'd look like he does in that pic.

Here's the father of my next pup. I really like the look of his head and I do like that he's a "thicker looking" mastiff, but I also think he's overweight and would have no intention of letting my pup get this big. He's 35.5 at the withers, which is very tall.

http://www.stonehavenmastiff.com/judah.htm

Thanks for he tips!! Im very active with my dogs, we go hiking, swimming, lakes, dog park. I finding she cant go with us on most of it but as she matures I plan on taking her and him because I do see a lot of obese mastiffs around that cant be healthy at all :/ Judah is gorgeous! and I wouldn't really consider him chunky like. Im now looking through their webpage what beautiful dogs! Ill post another picture of hugo, he has too much skin around his neck..not good for show but I like the look personally.

Is there a "BS" emoticon? A 230lb bitch Mastiff would be phenomenally rare. I can think of three or four and I've been in Mastiffs nearly 20yrs.



The male has fine bone, no depth of chest, no width of chest, no depth of flank. He is a small Mastiff ... even if he's tall ... and even if he's bigger than most every other dog you've seen. He is not a substantial Mastiff.

While closer to being substantial, the dam is also fine-boned and her chest is not particularly wide or deep.

Again, you're not alone in relying on a breeders' $#@!essment of a bitch or stud and their weight ... I did it when I bought my first Mastiff. You're not alone.



Yup ... even poorer specimens (phenotypically) are huge! And, even if they're poor phenotypes, they can be (and often are) wonderful companion pets....




WHAT?!?!?!

She has three litters on the ground at the same time?!

...a huge red flag on the breeders' motives...



The first pup (a sheltie) I ever had just did the same thing to me...I picked the runt out of a litter when I was five years old and could NOT be talked out of him.



Please be picky about your breeder. If you find the right breeder, you will eventually have the right dog.

After my first Mastiff pup, which I purchased from a back-yard-breeder with very questionable morals/ethics (but, I didn't know any better as I hadn't really done much more than a few weeks of research), I took my time when it was time to get another one. In fact, I took about two years of research before getting another pup. I wanted to do it 'right'.

Well, I got a great male ... but, even then, he wasn't what I was hoping for as he matured (his pelvis tilts forward, resulting in a croup that is too steep ... and he has too much dewlap, among a few other things). So, despite that I've been asked by others to allow them to breed to him several times, I've turned them all down. He doesn't have the phenotype I want.

Fast forward another two years ... and that's when we got our lovely Jade...she's a winner in the show ring, a winner in the home, a winner with the family and our other animals. And, she's a good mama (the two pups from her first litter just turned 1yr old two days ago).

If you don't know what I'm talking about, re: too much dewlap, steep croup, etc., then know you probably shouldn't get any more Mastiffs until you learn about it. It'll make you a better Mastiff lover -- the more you know about them (proper structure, etc.), the more you can care for (and love) them.

Welcome to the addiction! HA!!

I've learned a lot in the past month and even in the past 3 weeks since Ive been paying for the next pup. If I didn't fall I n love with him I probably would be backing out. There are way too many things wrong at this point. But its a done deal. As long as I get the pup I paid for Im happy she has sent me updated pictures of a different pup lol that was interesting but we got it worked out .My main concern now tho is looking through pedigrees of her dogs my pup mom was a daughter f his dads?? I know in reptiles things like this is ok its considered "line breeding" is that ok with dogs?

 

[voidecho]

I think Hugo is a very pretty dog, but I can't tell you how well he fits the breed standard. I just don't have the eye or experience for that. He's definitely thicker in that second pic. Good looking guy. I'd just want to squish his face.

 

[TWW]

Ok if I am reading that right, your pups parents have the same dad? making them, half brother and half sister.

If so, no. It is still inbreeding.

 

[DonnieH]

Yes my pups have the same father. They are getting fixed..Im not into risking my babes like that. I bred my chiuahua chloe once and she almost died twice sooo not worth it. But what I ment was. The male pup in this thread that I just paid off is the son of Darcy..who is hugos daughter...hugo was bred to his daughter making the pup I bought. Which I just discovered yesterday. Ive never researched family pets before. I research about the breed as far as care and needs but not about the market. Im just hoping that he wont suffer long term problems from his too close genetics The breeder is sweet as can be and loves her pups to pieces her place is immaculate. She retired..I dont want to feel like Im bashing her Im super excited to get my pup and I will love him to pieces regardless!!

 

[voidecho]

So the pup you're getting is the son of Darcy and Hugo, and Darcy is Hugo's daughter?

I don't know much about breeding, but that sure doesn't seem right to me.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Donnie,

Generally, this sort of tight breeding (father / daughter) is STRONGLY frowned upon. There are some very seasoned breeders who have done this sort of thing before, but it should only be done by someone who really knows what they're doing and has done all the genetic tests available to them to try to minimize the possibility that something awful would befall the pups. It is a common thing to see someone do this without all the available information at their fingertips (i.e., no testing), and the pups are a quick way to pay for a family vacation for your favorite vet ... caveat emptor.

That said, we also raise beef cattle. One of my nicest looking heifers is bred the same way (her father is also her maternal grandfather). If the genes are the right sort of genes, it can work marvelously well. This sort of thing happens all the time in nature ... where the cruelty of 'eat what you kill' will weed out any poor-performing offspring --- we don't have the same dynamic in the world of family pets (unless you call puppy millers who PTS their stock if it won't breed for them).

 

[joshuagough]

Judah is not over weight whatsoever, he just has a very large frame. When you get your pup the genetic make up will determine his weight/size and he will follow the sire/dame.. that entire line is large framed EMs.

Just like folks trying to get their EM to 200lbs, that shouldn't be the goal.. a healthy pup that fits his/her frame should be the goal.

With that said.. cheers to at least 8 males in that litter so you have a good pick!

Yes, in general a bigger dog is going to have more issues. Not always, but in general. And if they have issues, they're probably harder to deal with because of the weight.

Things I've done to try to avoid health issues:

• Not neuter before two years
• Feed a good quality kibble (or raw would probably be better)
• Don't overfeed, keep them lean and fit
• Try to get them to grow at a slow steady pace
• Don't feed too much calcium (< 1.6%, and keep calcium to phosporus ratio at 1.2%
• For the first year or so try to keep jumping, stair climbing and other jarring movements to a minimum
• Get them a moderate amount of excercise

Those are all of the things I'm doing specifically for the betterment of my boy's health.

As for weights, yes it's difficult to judge weight by a pic, but that male looks way too healthy, fit and trim to be 270. He could have a huge frame, but even then he looks too thin (a very healthy looking thin) to weigh that much. Now if the pic is old, he certainly could have filled out from then and could weigh 270 now, but I don't think he'd look like he does in that pic.

Here's the father of my next pup. I really like the look of his head and I do like that he's a "thicker looking" mastiff, but I also think he's overweight and would have no intention of letting my pup get this big. He's 35.5 at the withers, which is very tall.

http://www.stonehavenmastiff.com/judah.htm

 

[voidecho]

Judah is not over weight whatsoever, he just has a very large frame. When you get your pup the genetic make up will determine his weight/size and he will follow the sire/dame.. that entire line is large framed EMs.

Just like folks trying to get their EM to 200lbs, that shouldn't be the goal.. a healthy pup that fits his/her frame should be the goal.

With that said.. cheers to at least 8 males in that litter so you have a good pick!

You're probably right. The problem is that there isn't a single pic of Judah standing...they're all laying down or sitting so it's hard to tell how trim he is around the waist.

I certainly won't starve my pup just to keep him thin. If he ends up being huge, then it's just genetics. Fingers crossed for a bunch of males!!

 

[VentiandMe]

I've been FIGHTING the urge so bad to not get another EM!! It's very hard. lol
FYI, My mastiff on the left is around 165-170 in that pic...the Mastiff on the right is 250+...huge difference.

 

[voidecho]

...and...you can even see some rib outline on the one on the right which is awesome. Just a huge dog. If it's head was up you could see how much it towers over the one on the left. My boy Lincoln looks like the one on the left.

 

[joshuagough]

Your pup will be big, there ain't no second guessing it.

Attached you will find pictures of Judah, as you can tell he is of good proportion. The show picture was from 2011 so he has matured but is still fair from what I'd say is overweight. The pup pic of him is adorable.

You're probably right. The problem is that there isn't a single pic of Judah standing...they're all laying down or sitting so it's hard to tell how trim he is around the waist.

I certainly won't starve my pup just to keep him thin. If he ends up being huge, then it's just genetics. Fingers crossed for a bunch of males!!

 

[taraann81]

Here's the father of my next pup. I really like the look of his head and I do like that he's a "thicker looking" mastiff, but I also think he's overweight and would have no intention of letting my pup get this big. He's 35.5 at the withers, which is very tall.

http://www.stonehavenmastiff.com/judah.htm

Do you believe that void? That is half an inch taller than Zorba.... , id like to see him measured officially with a wicket.

 

[voidecho]

Not sure taraann. Haven't had a chance to meet him. My current boy is 32.5 and he's only 160. I didn't think a three inch difference was that unbelievable. I think Ruger here on this site is somewhere close to 36 inches, but I could be wrong.

 

[taraann81]

Not sure taraann. Haven't had a chance to meet him. My current boy is 32.5 and he's only 160. I didn't think a three inch difference was that unbelievable. I think Ruger here on this site is somewhere close to 36 inches, but I could be wrong.

sully weighs 195 lbs, and when measured properly is only 30.5... I had been marking his height on the wall and measuring up... I thought he was close to 33, and then when I made a crude wicket, a yard stick on the wall and used a level to measure from his withers too the yard stick, I got the heigth of 30.5. Ive.done quite a bit of research on heigth... And oddly... When these 35 inch dogs are measured officially with a wicket, the average hwigth for dogs in the ring is betwen 30-32 inches.... I ve now become a sceptic.... If that is the average of most of the big dogs in the ring, id be really surprised.to see SO many that are so far above these heigths.

 

[voidecho]

Well crap, now I've got to "officially" check Lincoln.

 

[voidecho]

And.....he's scared to death of the level and the yard stick on the wall. Awesome. Won't even come for cheese. Drag him over there and he cowers down. Grrrrrr........

 

[TWW]

There are several I have seen with the mid and 1 or 2 in the upper 30's posted for height to withers. Weight is where I'm a lot more skeptical. Keep seeing sites with 250 -280+lbs. When you have a total of 3 300+ known English mastiffs Zorba 343, Cromwell 308, Moose 300.

Do you believe that void? That is half an inch taller than Zorba.... , id like to see him measured officially with a wicket.

There may be others, but only 3 I found which where creditable or proven.

 

[taraann81]

There are several I have seen with the mid and 1 or 2 in the upper 30's posted for height to withers. Weight is where I'm a lot more skeptical. Keep seeing sites with 250 -280+lbs. When you have a total of 3 300+ known English mastiffs Zorba 343, Cromwell 308, Moose 300.

There may be others, but only 3 I found which where creditable or proven.

I invite everyone to join a new FB group, "honest weights and wickets" according to these breeders, 30 is probably closer to average heigth with 32 being quite huge in comparison.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Zorba was tall, but it was his length of body that really allowed him to tilt the scale.

I'm with taraann81 ... a 220lb Mastiff is a REALLY heavy dog. A male Mastiff over 32-33" is a REALLY tall dog.

While size is greatly desired (or it should be), size without structure, breed type and a general level of fitness is not.

IOW, simply having some super-tall, Great-Dane-Looking Mastiff isn't what any Mastiff fancier should seek. Similarly, having some uber-thick (i.e., fat, or marginally fat) Mastiff is probably unhealthy for the dog, and therefore should be avoided, too.

Balance ... balance ... balance.