Cage problems recommendation

[Steven C]

We are returning a large steel cage that was torn apart by our Corso on Tuesday night. She ripped the far wall down inward and bent the front door so much that its unrepairable. We came home to an absolute mess in the room including but not limited to fecies on the carpet (the wife was done) where the cage is and 2 ruined door knobs that were matte black now chewed. Among everything on any counter down and so on.

This dog has been the absolute toughest dog we have ever owned. Not sure if we just got lucky or they are all like this but mann....

In any event after cooling down and the wife cleaning the total wreck left in the room. A nice glass of Cabernet and some Peruvian Ceviche was needed.

I contacted Petco and set up a return. I am thinking to use a smaller travel crate for the times we leave her home which is once or twice a week for a few hours. The cage from Petco was the extra large cage that gives her space to rip the walls backwards. I was also thinking about getting the same cage again but using commercial zip ties to further reinforce the walls of the crappy made cage.

I give her a frozen Kong ball with peanut butter to keep her busy in the cage but as soon as she hears us leave, she is gung ho on escaping. Our Bordeaux was the same way but he did not ruin the house while left out with the 2 poodles. The Corso is a born destroyer and cannot be left out yet anyway. She is 8 months.

Any ideas?

 

[marke]

it's pretty easy fix for a puppy that doesn't have the behavior yet , not so much for an 8 month old dog that's already there ...... you need to desensitize that dog to being left alone .......... that takes time , needing to continually lock the dog up which will almost surely continue to elicit the behavior makes it even harder .......... you need to find some information on desensitizing , or counter conditioning ............... best scenario would be if you could safely leave the dog out with your other dog ....... they do make crates your dog cannot get out of .............

 

[Steven C]

it's pretty easy fix for a puppy that doesn't have the behavior yet , not so much for an 8 month old dog that's already there ...... you need to desensitize that dog to being left alone .......... that takes time , needing to continually lock the dog up which will almost surely continue to elicit the behavior makes it even harder .......... you need to find some information on desensitizing , or counter conditioning ............... best scenario would be if you could safely leave the dog out with your other dog ....... they do make crates your dog cannot get out of .............

I think what she needs is Lenny to put her in check lol. I do plan on leaving her out eventually with the 2 poodles, the problem right now is she is still in the destruction stage which I expect to go away at a year to 1 1/2 yo. Clearing off counters, tables and anything she can reach. This dog has 10x the drive the Bordeaux had and while its nice for training, it is a PITA the rest of the day. Am searching for a better crate at a reasonable price.

 

[Boxergirl]

Sounds like you're dealing with separation anxiety. He knows he can escape a wire crate now, so I wouldn't buy another one if it were me. I would go with the largest plastic airline crate you can find. Some dogs with SA do better in a more enclosed crate like this. Some dogs do best in a safe room. My daughter's boxer has very severe SA. I have a wire crate for him here and while he loves to nap in it with the door closed, he can't be confined in it. I made my dining room a safe room with the open crate and it works for me. She finds that he does better in an airline crate with a blanket over the sides. Do you have access to a camera so you can watch him and see how long he makes a fuss for after you leave? Sometimes it's helpful to know how long the dog is freaking out for.

I would suggest the book Don't Leave My by Nicole Wilde.
Here's a link or two that might help too.
https://clickertraining.com/node/1556
https://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/...n-training-fido-that-calm-behavior-makes-you/

 

[DennasMom]

Wow. That's a dog with some drive and perseverance!

Denna destroyed stuff IN her wire crate between 8 and 14 months... but never did try to destroy the crate itself, thank goodness... I was also VERY glad when she finally graduated from the crate. She never counter-surfed, though, or destroyed more than pillows and dog beds.

Do you have a camera on the dog in the crate while you're gone? Something you can review later to see how long it takes for her to start plucking at the cage to get out?
Does the kong lose it's luster as soon as you walk out the door, or does she clean it out first?

How does she act when you get home? Do you make coming home as LOW key as possible, so it's just "no big deal" that you left or that you came home?
Do you practice crate time when you're home? We always had specific treats that were ONLY to be consumed while in the crate. Denna was HAPPY to see us leave, because she knew she'd get to spend time with a very tasty treat.

Would she do better in a safe/secure room versus another crate? One preferably with easily replaceable doorknobs, doors and trim, of course... oh, and an easy-to-wash floor covering.

Other thoughts - knock her out with CBD oil and/or treats before you leave and/or Bach Flower remedies (Rescue Remedy), and/or add aromatherapy, music or TV left on...

Where are the other dogs when she's in the crate? Is that driving her nuts, knowing the other dogs are out there, free, having fun or just doing "stuff" she can't see?? (that bothered our rescue dog... he would do ANYTHING to escape and be with our older dog).

Good luck with the new crate. I agree with getting something totally different than the last one - and see if you can make it a happy space before you have to leave her alone for long in it. It's a process for sure. But, if every evening there's "treat time" in the crate - with you home and the crate door open - that might help get her off to a good start...

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

We don't use wire crates, because they are too much of a pain and too easy for the dogs to destroy. We have de-sentizied the dogs to crates as soon as they are old enough to be separated from mom and siblings (8-10 weeks) with little to no issues, even with our drivy ones. I am not sure hard plastic airport ones will work either, but they are cheaper than the impact resistant ones that are usually needed for extreme cases.

Good luck!

 

[Steven C]

Thank you all for the replies, I wish I would have desensitized her early but I did not thinking leaving her out with the Poodles for the few short hours per week would not be an issue. I was wrong.

Tuesday night had come around again and we still had the old crate that I did not return yet. I searched for new crates and the only crates that seemed good for her were crazy money, in the 1800 range so I said let me try the commercial zip ties all around first. I went to Home depot and purchased some of the bigger zip ties they had and put them on every separation all around the cage and I put them loosely in the lock areas.

I made a deal with the wife that I didn't want her to go in that room when we returned and that I would clean any mess if she destroyed the room again. The wife said she didn't feel I could clean it as well as her and she promised not to get angry and stress me out. lol So we went for it, we left and put the frozen kong in with her, loaded with peanut butter. Funny thing is that I don't have to drag her in the crate, she goes right in when I tell her to which I find strange as she acts like she hates it once in there. We could hear the barking as we left.

We came back expecting the worst and amazingly the zip ties worked like a charm. She was in the cage, no defecation, no pee no damage at all. The bottom part of the crate was slid all the way out and the cage was moved several feet away. I opened the door and happily gave her a hug and rewarded her for 5 minutes before taking her out. She is still only 85% potty trained. lol

So for any of you out there that don't want to spend a grand on a break proof cage, think about commercial zip ties they really worked for me. If they had not worked, I would have went to a woodworker to see if I could make a solid custom cage for a couple hundred.

 

[Steven C]

Wow. That's a dog with some drive and perseverance!

Denna destroyed stuff IN her wire crate between 8 and 14 months... but never did try to destroy the crate itself, thank goodness... I was also VERY glad when she finally graduated from the crate. She never counter-surfed, though, or destroyed more than pillows and dog beds.

Do you have a camera on the dog in the crate while you're gone? Something you can review later to see how long it takes for her to start plucking at the cage to get out?
Does the kong lose it's luster as soon as you walk out the door, or does she clean it out first?

How does she act when you get home? Do you make coming home as LOW key as possible, so it's just "no big deal" that you left or that you came home?
Do you practice crate time when you're home? We always had specific treats that were ONLY to be consumed while in the crate. Denna was HAPPY to see us leave, because she knew she'd get to spend time with a very tasty treat.

Would she do better in a safe/secure room versus another crate? One preferably with easily replaceable doorknobs, doors and trim, of course... oh, and an easy-to-wash floor covering.

Other thoughts - knock her out with CBD oil and/or treats before you leave and/or Bach Flower remedies (Rescue Remedy), and/or add aromatherapy, music or TV left on...

Where are the other dogs when she's in the crate? Is that driving her nuts, knowing the other dogs are out there, free, having fun or just doing "stuff" she can't see?? (that bothered our rescue dog... he would do ANYTHING to escape and be with our older dog).

Good luck with the new crate. I agree with getting something totally different than the last one - and see if you can make it a happy space before you have to leave her alone for long in it. It's a process for sure. But, if every evening there's "treat time" in the crate - with you home and the crate door open - that might help get her off to a good start...

I never thought about the low key coming home. Also some great ideas here. One Poodle, the oldest 5 yo is out in the house sitting by a window, she is the Alpha. The other Poodle stays in my office room in a small cubby hole under the desk, he loves it there. So its like they are all kind of separate. I don't like to leave the Corso with them alone yet as she plays a little strong for my taste around the little ones and with them which I often have to stop.

I know she would not attack them, I'm afraid of an accident while she is still puppy playful. Her zoomies are scary and unlike anything I have ever seen. Full speed rounding corners on tile, slamming into walls while turning around, flying at full speed after a 7 foot jump off the couch directly under the coffee table. I mean agile is an understatement. I am not exaggerating when I say this dog is 10x on steroids in comparison to my Bordeaux. We have been in a state of shock since she came home but luckily she really is loving and obedient with commands.

She barks at children which I am working on now, she wont even stop with a strong correction. Not happy about that but working on it.

 

[Steven C]

We don't use wire crates, because they are too much of a pain and too easy for the dogs to destroy. We have de-sentizied the dogs to crates as soon as they are old enough to be separated from mom and siblings (8-10 weeks) with little to no issues, even with our drivy ones. I am not sure hard plastic airport ones will work either, but they are cheaper than the impact resistant ones that are usually needed for extreme cases.

Good luck!

In Amazon reviews on the plastic ones, even GSDs are tearing them up, just imagine one bite from one of these. I am amazed how hard it is to find great crates at reasonable prices but it is hard. We worry as we need a crate to take her from FL to Morocco with us as the Poodles go right on the plane in small bags. I have read horror stories of dogs getting loose at airports and ultimately getting shot.

 

[Boxergirl]

Sometimes it's the type of crate that makes all the difference. Do you know anyone with an airline crate that you could try? Just to see? I know the wire crate is keeping her contained with the zip ties, but it may be worth it to see if she would do better with a more enclosed space like an airline crate. Do you have access to a camera to see how long she freaks out for after you leave?

Have you tried desensitizing and counter conditioning to children? What kind of corrections are you using? It's really important to create a good association there, so I would suggest being cautious about harsh corrections. It can backfire and make the dog react even more to them. Most reactions are fear based and corrections can often create a negative association. You definitely don't want that. The goal is not just to stop the barking, but to change how she feels about kids. I can find you some training articles if you're interested. On separation anxiety as well as desensitization and counter conditioning training. Or did I give links for SA already? I'm getting old, lol. I don't remember.

 

[Steven C]

Sometimes it's the type of crate that makes all the difference. Do you know anyone with an airline crate that you could try? Just to see? I know the wire crate is keeping her contained with the zip ties, but it may be worth it to see if she would do better with a more enclosed space like an airline crate. Do you have access to a camera to see how long she freaks out for after you leave?

Have you tried desensitizing and counter conditioning to children? What kind of corrections are you using? It's really important to create a good association there, so I would suggest being cautious about harsh corrections. It can backfire and make the dog react even more to them. Most reactions are fear based and corrections can often create a negative association. You definitely don't want that. The goal is not just to stop the barking, but to change how she feels about kids. I can find you some training articles if you're interested. On separation anxiety as well as desensitization and counter conditioning training. Or did I give links for SA already? I'm getting old, lol. I don't remember.

As far as the crate goes, I am going to live with this for now for the house crate. I will search for an airline crate soon as we are moving to Morocco very soon and I would like to acclimate her to the crate before hand. And it would be imperative that she cannot escape the airline crate. We are arriving in Casablanca and have a van picking us for another 4 hour or so drive to Tangier so it will be a long trip for all the dogs.

Yes, if you find anything on the kids I would appreciate it. I am basically correcting her with pretty much the only correction that works with her with the Sprenger prong collar. I know many people think this is harsh, but they don't know the type of dog we are dealing with. She barks at the kids and if its a kid I know, I approach them and ask them to pet her and upon getting close, she immediately shakes her tail and is happy. There are other kids running around that I do not know and cannot ask them to meet the dog. The whole thing started when several kids in the neighborhood were screaming undisciplined dragging a bicycle up the stairs making a racket, from that moment on she has barked and I haven't been able to stop it.

One time, I drove up to the dog park, I would never go in, but since its close I drove up and 2 chow dogs rushed the fence and it was the first time I heard a deeply aggressive defensive type bark inside the car, since then she has barked at other dogs, but I have been able to fix that through the prong collar correction in only a couple of no's and quick tugs strong enough that she knew it was wrong. Also sometimes with people she would bark but its hit and miss, if she likes them or they seem weird. I am ok with that, just don't feel comfortable with the kids, not that she would attack, but that they can claim she is aggressive which I do not need those problems. Enough issues in the states now to have to deal with that nonsense.

 

[Boxergirl]

Desensitization and counter conditioning to kids really isn't any different than any other reactivity issue - except that I think it's super important to make sure that no negative associations are made. If your prong corrections haven't solved the problem then I, personally, would look more toward changing how she feels about children. You definitely don't want her to associate having kids around with something unpleasant. I like LAT and BAT training. These techniques work to change how the dog feels about whatever they're reacting to, which I feel is really important because punishment may stop a behavior at the time but if you don't change the mindset then chances are really strong that the behavior you're trying to change with show up again in the right circumstances. Neither LAT or BAT are quick fixes. They take time and patience, but really pay off in the end if done correctly.

https://clickertraining.com/look-at-that-making-the-trigger-the-target
http://grishastewart.com/other-sites-with-info-on-bat/

 

[Smokeycat]

My Mastiff developed a severe distrust of school aged children after some negative associations with neighbourhood children. The sight of kids about 6 to where they look more like adults than kids would instantly start him barking and growling. I don't think he will ever completely like kids again but by doing lots of training, lots and lots of treats, where he could see kids (without letting them approach) and desensitizating him to the sight/presence of kids he no longer growls/barks. At home, where the problem occurred, he watches but wants no interaction with kids. Away from home he soaks up attention wherever he can get it but I don't let kids near his face just for my peace of mind.
It takes a lot of time and work but it can be done. Good luck.

 

[Steven C]

My Mastiff developed a severe distrust of school aged children after some negative associations with neighbourhood children. The sight of kids about 6 to where they look more like adults than kids would instantly start him barking and growling. I don't think he will ever completely like kids again but by doing lots of training, lots and lots of treats, where he could see kids (without letting them approach) and desensitizating him to the sight/presence of kids he no longer growls/barks. At home, where the problem occurred, he watches but wants no interaction with kids. Away from home he soaks up attention wherever he can get it but I don't let kids near his face just for my peace of mind.
It takes a lot of time and work but it can be done. Good luck.

Treats have been a blessing for all the dogs in the house. I had a problem with the white toy poodle barking at everything and anything and I can't really discipline the poodles, I just feel bad to even yell at them too small. lol So if she started barking at the birds or the lawn people, I would keep a bag of treats with me and recall all of them which completely stopped the barking in the house.

Perhaps I need to carry a bag of treats outside and in the car, so when she sees a kid and starts barking I can recall her to not pay attention. I have to be careful not to reward the barking though, fine line there.

 

[Steven C]

Made it a third time in the cage for 3 hours, no problems. What is happening now is when she is outside of the cage and has access to that room she goes in and starts to chew off the zip ties. Luckily I bought a huge bag of them and some of them she is chewing are not actually breaking off but just trimming the ends.

Making excellent strides with her lately, I think the worst is over. I have also realized this week as she has been out a lot around people and she only barks at kids that torment or make sudden moves or move around her slowly as if they are scared. I had to yell at the maintence guy for tormenting her trying to get her roweled up on purpose, making quick moves and trying to get her to freak. All I need is some idiot tormenting a dog that has trust issues to begin with.

Otherwise she has been 100% better and I'm feeling relieved she is growing out of that nonsense. Still loaded with energy, you can just see the angelic look in her eyes. lol

 

[Jarena]

My girl was an escape artist but she grew out of it, we used clips like these to secure her crate.

 

[Boxergirl]

I would still suggest the CC and DS training with kids. At a distance where she doesn't react. I'd also strongly suggest impulse control and focus training. She's most likely reacting to the loud and unruly kids because she's scared. She's going to go through more fear periods and you really want to get a handle on it now. You don't need her to interact with kids she doesn't know. You need her to ignore them. That's where the focus training will really come in handy, and it needs to be a very positive thing.

 

[Boxergirl]

I wasn't going to post this, but I came back because I think it's important. I'm not a fan of prongs as I feel that everything that the prong is used for can be achieved without one, but that is my opinion only. That being said, I'm a crossover trainer and I have used them in the past. If you (generic you) choose to use one, it's very important to have it fit properly and yours is much too loose and low on her neck. Even though I don't embrace all of his philosophies, Ed Frawley from Leerburg Dog Training does have a good article and videos on properly fitting and using a prong.

http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

 

[Steven C]

Actually I am very familiar with prongs and Leerburg. I have trained besides two noted IPO trainers with Police dogs several years, my DDB actually trained beside GSD's and BM's as I needed to take him with me to Colombia for 6 years. He was amazing in his youth although not a working breed and didn't train the best.

I know this collar may appear loose but I assure its the position she is in now (its actually not loose at all) her neck is long and in that sitting position it appears to sag when standing it is on the upper neck area where it belongs, plus she is growing and we are adding pieces as necessary. This is a working dog that no one could handle without a prong. I needed 2 working CC's for my open air Riad in Tangier. We will buy the second once over there from Portugal or Spain. This is the reason we are having issues at all, if she was a non working line breed she would be a piece of cake as my friends CC.

By the way, another note is that this is a Sprenger prong collar which is extremely gentle in comparison to the garbage out there.

 

[Boxergirl]

Actually I am very familiar with prongs and Leerburg. I have trained besides two noted IPO trainers with Police dogs several years, my DDB actually trained beside GSD's and BM's as I needed to take him with me to Colombia for 6 years. He was amazing in his youth although not a working breed and didn't train the best.

I know this collar may appear loose but I assure its the position she is in now (its actually not loose at all) her neck is long and in that sitting position it appears to sag when standing it is on the upper neck area where it belongs, plus she is growing and we are adding pieces as necessary. This is a working dog that no one could handle without a prong. I needed 2 working CC's for my open air Riad in Tangier. We will buy the second once over there from Portugal or Spain. This is the reason we are having issues at all, if she was a non working line breed she would be a piece of cake as my friends CC.

By the way, another note is that this is a Sprenger prong collar which is extremely gentle in comparison to the garbage out there.

Yes, I know that a Sprenger is the way to go with a prong. Please don't be offended at my post. We have many lurkers and the collar appears very loose in that picture, which many who did not know better would think is the proper way to use the tool. Clearly you know that positioning the collar that low would be incorrect. Lurkers would not know that, which is why I shared the video.

As for being a working dog that no one could handle without a prong ... I guess we'll agree to disagree. Your training tool is your choice and I'm glad it's working for you. I have yet to find a puppy that needed a prong, working dog or not, but perhaps that's just my experience. Clearly you and I have very different training styles that work for us. I do wish you the best of luck.