My pup Molly biting

[Mollys dad]

OK...let me go through what is happening and what we have done with our new bullmastiff:
- Molly is now 11 weeks old (bought her at almost 8 weeks)
- crate training was already started when we picked her up - so we have continued and she is really good - no poop or pee overnight (11pm - 6am) and no eliminating in the house for almost a week during the day - she will go to the door when she is ready to potty
- we take her out first thing and she eliminates and we bring her in and its great
- after breakfast though - she becomes a biting terror! no amount of saying OW or OUCH will help - she becomes more aggressive and will bark or yelp in response - when you turn to walk away she will clamp down on your ankle or pant's leg, or skirt and pull hard or break the skin. My wife has a couple pair of shoes with blood stains now and so do I. I have ruined dress slacks and long sleeve shirts she has bitten through and either torn or left bloody or both. Popping her nose resulted in a bark and lunging towards you. She will practice her sit and stay etc, but as soon as the treats stop it's on again.
- put her back in the crate and she calms down. the rest of the morning and early afternoon she is much calmer. By about 6PM she is back crazy again.
- I'm home from work between 5 and 6 to give the wife a break and the pup will usually pull the hem out of my pants or bite through my sock and bring blood - so far everyday this week. Using the off command or leave it will work, but after she gets a treat we're back at it. With other breeds I have raised, a loud reprimand or strong hand would curve the behavior immediately (lab, german shepherd).
- back in the crate she goes until dinner time.
- after dinner she is a little angel again - following us around the house - interacting with the cat (they paw at each other and sometimes will sleep together), chewing the kong or nylabone etc., wanting her belly rubbed, giving out puppy kisses etc
- before bedtime we take her out to potty and then back in to the crate for the night - no whining or yelping - she settles down and goes to sleep.

Diversion toys do not work - she'll drop em and go back to skin or clothes. Off and leave it commands do work but will wain after the treats stop - I'm beginning to think she bites to get a treat.

We are feeding her what the breeder was using - nothing else except a training treat. She has a dozen chew toys of different texture and hardness from stuffed animals to a nylabone. Outside on a leash she is good not to pull and will respond to stop and heel - turning away from her when she pulls has been effective. She responds well to sit, stay, come, leave it, off, and we are working on shake.

I am typing this at work after a phone call from my wife who is in tears that we are failing and in fear of Molly when she "goes crazy".

The breeder has been little help - "oh she'll grow out of it" and the vet - "bullmastiffs are a weird breed - good luck with that." I guess I need a trainer to come to my house and see whats up with us - unless the pup is bipolar I know we control the outcome here.

This is the first pup I have considered putting up for adoption.

 

[Iymala]

She has too much energy. It sounds like she is not getting near enough play to wear her out. I would suggest using her outside when she gets energetic and playing games. Get her moving and tired. When she gets nippy tell her no and put a toy in her mouth to redirect...but interact with them. Have her chase the toy, play tug with a tug toy.

A tired puppy is a good puppy, and puppies are a lot of work. So far after going through your day I did not see one instance of her getting any exercise with either your wife or you. She will likely need a play period in the morning and evening.

 

[ruthcatrin]

How much exercise is she getting? Not just "well she has toys to play with" time, but actual interaction with humans play time?

 

[AKBull]

She has too much energy. It sounds like she is not getting near enough play to wear her out. I would suggest using her outside when she gets energetic and playing games. Get her moving and tired. When she gets nippy tell her no and put a toy in her mouth to redirect...but interact with them. Have her chase the toy, play tug with a tug toy.

A tired puppy is a good puppy, and puppies are a lot of work. So far after going through your day I did not see one instance of her getting any exercise with either your wife or you. She will likely need a play period in the morning and evening.

This is the first thing that came to my mind. Pup needs to get some energy out.
Not to use the same line as your breeder, but she's not wrong. Pups need a lot of work and training. And understanding. Careful with the "strong hand" though.

 

[Kfmulley]

We had this problem with our Neo/EM mix, it went on or about a week or two, we punished her but it didnt work for long, we have a friend who grew up with dog and he said when the dog bites to hard you respond with a welp and bite the puppys ear until it welps, this will show the dog that this is not allowed, the biting it to hard and is hurting you. That is what the mother does to its puppys when they bite to hard. This worked for us and our pup doesnt nip anymore. I wouldnt use the crate for punishment.

 

[M & M]

Ok this made me smile because now I can smile after my hell on heels Lily used me as her personal chew toy for months...... I had scratches & chew marks all over me..... She even pulled my sleepy pants off, that was embarrassing for both of us LOL...... Ok all the above is correct, too much energy...... Lily's crazy shark attacks always happened around bed time, gotta love an EM.... Any who, got Lily at 9 weeks & from day one I was just another litter mate.... From what the breeder told me, Miss laid back Lily became the bully of the litter...... I did everything you are doing but keep shoving the toy in Molly's mouth... I have toy arm from throwing them so much, no seriously my arm was sore but she finally got it that biting is NO NO NO......Also when she went into late night crazy mode, I grabbed her & pinned her like her Mom would with her paw say NO BITE, throw the leash on & I would run her around the house 5 or 6 times...... I also did the peanut butter all over my hands, if she licked she got praised, if she bite well it was a loud scary NO & I walked away....... Gave her lots of ice to chew on, her teething was off the charts...... Put her in her crate once when she was really out of control, she did not like that & neither did I because I don't believe the crate should be associated with punishment but she would not stop..... So I feel your pain but it does get better...... Oh don't sit on the floor, that just means game on at this age......

 

[ruthcatrin]

We had this problem with our Neo/EM mix, it went on or about a week or two, we punished her but it didnt work for long, we have a friend who grew up with dog and he said when the dog bites to hard you respond with a welp and bite the puppys ear until it welps, this will show the dog that this is not allowed, the biting it to hard and is hurting you. That is what the mother does to its puppys when they bite to hard. This worked for us and our pup doesnt nip anymore. I wouldnt use the crate for punishment.

please tell me where you witnessed a mother dog biting a pups ear in retaliation for being nipped??

BTW, please don't "bite" your pup, smack your pup, or otherwise cause them pain in retaliation for them nipping, they have no idea what they're doing is wrong, all that does is show them you're a bigger bully and to be feared, and although it may "fix" your biting problem it causes larger issues later....

 

[M & M]

Thank you Ruthcatrin, didn't want to mention that cuz it reminds me of a person I don't like..... That is what he tried to do with M&M remember.... I was disgusted when he tried that & got in trouble for telling him off, it only makes things worse...... M&M turned out to be amazing EM's without being bite, hit or bullied....... Lily is no different just she has some crazy late night antics, a mastiff is a special breed, that the most you should ever have to do is raise your voice..... Well at least that is my experience......

 

[Iymala]

Please head Ruth's advice. Retaliation is not normal, and instills fear and aversion not trust or respect.

I have two puppies only separated by two months in age. It took them some time to learn eachother's boundaries, and at the beginning both of them bit each other too hard. Their reaction was not retaliation, but a yelp and move. They, just like people, would get their feelings hurt and walk away from the aggressor or stop playing. This happened on both ends with the bigger more dominant male and the more submissive female. They did not bite each other harder in return to "teach them a lesson".

You can do leashed walks in the back yard, games of chase (this also teaches the puppy self control. If they nip at your while you run... the game stops. They want to keep playing and catch on quickly that just running and playing keeps the game going. We used this a lot with Claymore before we got Betty to wear him out), puzzle mind games (take a muffin tin and fill some of the cups with treats and cover them with balls. The puppy has to work to get the treats by moving the balls), fetch of a favorite toy if she will fetch, and I am sure others have some great ways to tire out puppies.

 

[M & M]

Ohhhhh Molly likes belly rubs...... So does Lily & when she was in terror mode, I could calm her down by grabbing her collar hold her down & roll her over & start rubbing her belly..... She would zone out, at least for a little while... If she started biting I would put a toy in her mouth..... Lily is 4 months, still nips occassionally when excited, this has been a process....... She is one stubborn girl..... But when she is good which is most of the time, it is all worth it...... Every day I see her changing, spreading her wings per se, trying my patience to see what she can get away with..... But I laugh a lot, praise her & try to be consistent with our training/exercise..... All great suggestions above.... luv this site....

 

[Kfmulley]

please tell me where you witnessed a mother dog biting a pups ear in retaliation for being nipped??

BTW, please don't "bite" your pup, smack your pup, or otherwise cause them pain in retaliation for them nipping, they have no idea what they're doing is wrong, all that does is show them you're a bigger bully and to be feared, and although it may "fix" your biting problem it causes larger issues later....

Oh, okay. We were just taking advise from someone and it seemed to have worked after a couple of times. I wont do that again!

 

[musicdeb]

I agree, the pup needs more exercise. Is it hot where you live? If yes, be aware that mastiffs do not tolerate heat very well.


Puppies bite because that is how they played with their siblings.

When they bite, tell them “OW” in a high-pitched voice and “NO” in a stern, calm voice. NEVER HIT OR YELL AT A MASTIFF. They will shut down on you and ignore you.
When they stop biting, tell them to sit and reward.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Some pups take the high pitched yelped "ow!" as an indicator to play further, if yours is one of those just say OW! in a normal but loud tone of voice, either way you need to then GET UP AND MOVE AWAY from the pup. In some case you may need to move completely out of the room. If the pup still won't calm down then a time out is in order, and though in general I agree that the crate shouldn't be used as punishment it CAN work for "time out" as long as you're carefull to do so without anger. Just pick up the pup, put them in their crate, and close the door and walk away.

Ideally avoid the problem by making sure the pup is getting enough exercise to wear them out, and ALSO trying to avoid over-exciting the pup as over excitement in play can also cause nipping and biting.

Also I suggest hand feeding the pup. ADULTS ONLY, place a small amount of kibble on the palm of your hand, fingers flat like you're giving a treat to a horse. If the pup comes in roughly, grabbing your hand by mistake, close your fingers around the kibble. At this point the pup WILL chew on your hand. Keep your hand closed till the pup either stops, or licks at, your hand, at which point you offer them the food again. This should be repeated for at least part of the meal for every meal. Once the pup has the concept down and is being gentle then EVERY member of the family should assist in hand feeding the pup, children should obviously be supervised, and small children should be "assisted" by adults by having the child's hand put ontop of the adults, just to be safe.

Also, in addition to making sure the pup is getting enough exercise, sometimes some pups will become "crazy" acting because they're hungry. Small pups should be getting 3 meals a day, and you may want to re-evaulate how much food they're getting to make sure they're getting enough.

 

[ruthcatrin]

The other thing to remember is that the nipping/biting isn't going to dissappear overnight. Pups this young have basically NO attention span at all. Everything goes in one ear and out the other. Its going to take time for it to slowly work through their brains what you're trying to get across. It can litterally take weeks to see serious improvement. You've got to remain consistant in the mean time in order for it to sink in.

 

[musicdeb]

Patience and consistency is key.

 

[DennasMom]

My first thought, was... when you say "ow", do you pull your hand away really fast -i.e. make it look like prey? That would just encourage the game... walking away then turns ankles into prey, since she never understood that you stopped the game in the first place. You need to find a way to communicate with her that she understands... as a puppy, she'll just keep trying to get your attention, anyway she can.

I agree with more exercise - mental and physical. Start working on commands, like "leave it", "wait", "sit" and work on focus, where she will look at you when you say her name... all for treats and praise. You might also make or buy a "flirt pole"... just be careful to use it on soft surfaces to minimize repetitive joint impacts.

Search on youtube for a video called "it's yer choice" - it helps teach puppies impulse control (i.e. "leave it"), which will also help with "wait" and everything else, too.

And, while I do agree she'll "grow out of it" - she'll need guidance with patience and consistency to make sure she "gets it" as soon as possible!

Denna was nippy until she was about 4 or 5 months old - but she learned very quick that when we said "ow", we meant it... All fun would stop (all movement would stop) immediately. We'd then grab a toy - normally a rope toy - and wiggle that around until she grabbed it - then lots of praise, and a game of tug as a reward for grabbing the right thing. When she wants our attention now, she'll "go get a toy" and bring it to us to play a game of tug with her.

Denna now has a VERY soft mouth. When strangers give her treats, they're always amazed at how gently she takes them from their hands. So... keep at it, it's worth it!!

For chew toys, you might also look into bully sticks. Denna would take about 2 weeks to go through a 12" stick at that age. (they now last about 6 minutes) Being a real meat product, they might be more interesting than a rope or nylabone.

One other thought - moving from lab to shepherd to mastiff is moving right out the line for "independent thinking" breeds (i.e. strong willed or "stubborn"). For me, that meant changing my training philosophy from "you will do as I say, because you want to and I told you so"... to "you will do as I say, because you love me and I pay well (i.e. treats)!"

 

[Mollys dad]

Well...The ow or yelp only has limited results. Completely ignoring her has some benefit - but combining the two never works but we keep doing it. Diversion works for a few seconds. Treats are always an effective attention getter.

We do exercise her - especially in the AM. We live in Georgia so the heat/humidity is tough this time of year. So exercising in the AM and early afternoon seems the best. She will play until she wants to lay down in the grass, but as soon as she comes back in, the shark comes to life (the shark describes her so well!!!).

I guess we will just keep treats in our pockets all the time and hope she grows out of it. We do want to enlist the help of a trainer for us and the dog - anyone know of a good BM familiar trainer in NW Georgia?

 

[musicdeb]

Patience and consistency is the key. She's very young so just keep at it, it will happen.

After she's had her second round of shots, you can start her at a Petsmart OB class which is great socialization.

Ask the breeder to recommend a trainer. Post a separate post in training sub forum for recommendations for GA trainer.

 

[Mollys dad]

I Have posted in the training forum for a recommendation for a trainer. She has had her second round of shots but the vet has recommended we wait until the third round of shots becuase parvo is unusually bad where we live - a fair number of strays from immigrant population. We had the highest number of deaths in the state for the last two years - I didn't know that!

I spoke with a trainer by phone in Atlanta, and he recommended adding a little more quanity of food at each feeding - not much to see if it helps. It did! She still goes into shark mode in the morning after breakfast and night after dinner. We have changed the yelping to a higher pitch and that seems to work. I do feel that boredom is a problem. My wife is home with her all day and they play outside everytime they go out - especially hard in the AM and early afternoon. The flirt pole was a good idea - Molly gets bored with fetch easy.

We still can't walk away without her biting your pant leg or ankle. She just will not be ignored. So my wife wears jeans all day and heavy shoes and I change out of my suit as soon as I walk in the door to the same thing. Just hoping that patience and consistency will pay off.