Feeling guilty

[Kujo]

*sigh*

For those of you who didn't read my other thread about Kujo getting his first battlewound, here's a quick recap:

My sister owns a 10 year intact Pitbull (Nibbles), sweetest boy, but still a boy. He and Kujo had a little spat about 2 months ago and Kujo ended up with a couple punctures in his jowels, nothing major, but blood was spilled. They were too close to one another when Nibbles was receiving his dinner, enough said. NOTE: This happened on neutral territory.

(Little precursor to last night: we were gathering to honor the passing of a friend one year ago, people were drinking, I was not.)

Since then I've been wary about these two spending time together, but we plan on many camping trips with them this summer and want them to at least tolerate one another. So I brought Kujo to their house for a memorial bbq. They ignored each other for the most part, they played the marking game (wherever one marks the other promptly marks over), but no real issues to start. First spat was when a friend (drunk) kind of pulled them together for a group hug (first mistake), Kujo was directly in front of me and Nibbles was directly in front of this friend. They both snarled at each other, clearly uncomfortable with the closeness and this friend stuck his hand in between them to separate them and got bit. My view on this was Kujo was being protective of me and Nibbles was responding in kind. We kept them separated til there was calm and then allowed some free reign again (second mistake). An hour went by with no issues, I was making sure to keep calm so Kujo woudln't feed off of me, they just continued their game of marking everything (I was watching closely). Next thing that happened is a little blurry for me, everyone was changing positions and I was distracted. What I think happened is Kujo was standing by the stairs that lead to the porch and Nibbles ran down the stairs, I think Kujo may have took this as an attack, or maybe it was an attack, I don't know. But next thing we know is Kujo has his mouth locked around Nibbles Head, the sound from both dogs was incredibly vicious (I've never really witnessed a dog fight). It took three LARGE men to pull them apart. Kujo is completely unharmed. Nibbles has a large gash in his lip and a couple minor punctures above his eye. The whole thing lasted maybe 8 seconds.

I feel really bad, I feel like I could have prevented this from happening, I think I know the mistakes I made. Short of keeping Kujo leashed the entire time and/or keeping Nibbles inside the entire time, was there something else we could have done to prevent this? NOTE: Kujo has met Nibbles when he was a pup without any issues, even meeting on Nibbles home turf, no issues. Is there any hope of these two being able to be around each other without fear of this happening? I know it's unlikely due to them both being intact males, but I'm not going to leave Kujo hom for camping trips and they are not going to leave Nibbles home either. We must find some sort of peace, even if it's just tolerance, I'll take it.

Side Note: After seeing Kujo's response after the first mistake, I have a newfound respect for the loyalty he has to me. He didn't leave my side and several times put himself directly in front of me and just posted at attention until he felt the "threat" was gone. Not saying I'm happy that he did what he did, but I am impressed.

 

[Hector]

After the initial scuffle (incident before this) I would have kept the dog tethered to me. Hector had a playmate when he was about 9 months and then one day he pinned the dog aggressively and it took my big bf to pull him off in a headlock. After that incident we knew he was done with non-family dogs. For sure the next time we met, I had Hector on the leash and the dog was happy hyper as usual and Hector wanted none of it and postured towards him and that was the end of it. It's sad, but that's the way it goes. If my dog won't accept other dogs, then I will respect that.

 

[CeeCee]

That's a hard one - there are so many nuances.

I don't think it's hopeless. If I wanted these two dogs to be able to be in the same space, I would:
1) Bring them together without any distractions - at times when you can focus solely on them.

2) Pay particular attention to the energy. Is one or both both of them stiff and tense?
If one is stiff and tense, I would redirect that dog and focus them on something else - like a down stay facing you. When they are relaxed, then they can choose to do their own thing.

3) Is one giving hard stares and the other averting their eyes or turning their head away from the other?
The one who is giving hard stares, needs to be redirected, given more space, or removed. Find the distance that they can be with one another without the tension.

4) Don't allow the "pissing contest" - interrupt that behavior and redirect back to you.

5) Keep them both on leash.

6) Neither dog is allowed to "own" any human i,e., sitting or standing in front of a human preventing access to that human.

Work toward them being in the same space without the tension.

I think both need to know that the humans are in charge at all times. To me, this means I control the resources and their activities at all times until they are looking to me for direction.

I'm not a professional trainer, but I do volunteer at our local shelter where I run play groups twice a week. We have intact males and females (most of whom are 'pit bull' type dogs) in the same play yard all the time. (A neutered or spayed dog is a rarity.) [Not a brag; just an explanation of my experience.]

I'm sure others will have advice beyond this.

 

[DennasMom]

I agree with the above recommendations.

I totally see what you did, and probably would have done the same thing, so no need to feel guilty.

I agree with keeping him leashed and near you after the first scuffle.

Also the emotions of the group were probably not the best... the dogs were probably picking up on some grief signals, and that the humans were in a weak state (drunk/grief/etc.) Even if you weren't, there probably were some of those signals going around.

For camping - once you get to the spot, make it a point to go for a hike or walk together, side by side to start, then have one dog/human go first and switch it up. Always keeping them inline, calm and able to "leave it" if they decide to get in a "pissing match" (love that label! ha!).

I think in a neutral location, where people are more relaxed and happy... and maybe not as drunk? (if you camp like we do, that's not necessarily true).
If nothing else, you can keep them tied to trees (or posts) on opposite sides of the camp, so they can see each other, but can't touch. They should eventually relax in each other's presence, as long as the humans are enforcing the camp rules (calm, no staring contests, etc.)

Who knows, maybe next time they meet, they'll be best buds! Dogs are really good at forgetting past indiscretions and living in the moment.

 

[tojvan]

Oh god this was a disaster right from the get go. The dogs already had issues, taking them to a party where alcohol, loud noises, close proximity is detrimental to what your trying to achieve. Before you build something you have to make sure the foundation is strong meaning the dogs must know your incharge and what you expect of them. Pissing contest is a no no, any kind of dominant behavior is a no no. Any kind of unwanted behavior has to be corrected. I agree with most of what CeeCee said, it's great advice. Muzzle can be a great training tool aswell depending on how you use it.
I don't think Kujo was the problem, he was pretty well behaved even after the fact that, that dog had already attacked him before. I haven't owned DDB'S before but from what Ive read they are gentle toward animals that they know are weaker than them. He probably thought that the pit was going to charge so he attacked first this time.

 

[mcarrel]

While many here with good experience have given good advice and i hope you are able to work it out.
From my own personal experience with 2 different male ddb I found neither to be trustworthy around other male dogs even with training and redirecting towards dog they knew their entire lives I would say my personal success was not that good. I had to keep both my males seperate and constantly leashed to me from the other dogs on family outings that included other males. both were extensively socialed with dogs growing up as well

 

[whit72]

I'm sorry to be negative but you put two dogs that had a history, in the middle of a party. with people hanging, grabbing and hugging them for pictures. Did you expect a different result? Dogs don't rationalize behavior, you put them in a situation where failure was the only option and well they failed..

I would assume the possibility of future outings together is unrealistic. These are both powerful breeds and next time they may not be so lucky to escape with minor injuries.

Some advice,, and intact male will defend his property especially when he perceives the other as a threat.




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[musicdeb]

IMO, most male DDB's do not like other male dogs. I do my best to keep Titan away from male dogs. He gets along well with female dogs but does not like male dogs.

 

[KimT]

They do tend to be same sex aggressive when the become mature, males and females. But if you can get them to get along great or like you said,tolerate each other

 

[ruthcatrin]

I think everyone's already said what I'd say.

I'll double or triple the comment on leashing though. For both dogs. Anytime both dogs are in proximity: long lead when out camping if you want, but leashed, and anytime he's not RIGHT THERE WITH YOU, someone has to be watching him, not participating in anything, not drinking, not "cooking dinner while keeping an eye on the dog". Either he's (BOTH DOGS) tethered close to his minder, or he's got someone who's only job is to watch and make sure that they don't set on each other. We recently found a very heavy 50ft leash to use with Apollo if you want the link.

 

[CeeCee]

One other thought on leashes - use them definitely, but make sure there is no tension on them. This means that you guys (the dog handlers) are going to need to be up and moving around with the dogs. The feeling of being restrained can trigger something that was initially there.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I hate to say it but I cannot imagine that they will ever get along. Not only is there history but you are dealing with, what I believe, are two dominant dogs. After thier first "issue" would have been the only opportunity to make it possible and IMO that would have meant nearly daily contact with each other without distraction and lots of training to try to make it work. It may or may not have at that point but I believe it isn't going to happen for you now. I would leash them both when you are out together and not allow any free play at all. I would think if you are careful, you will be able to walk them together (leashed) and still be able to enjoy the camping trips. Maybe you can take Kujo off on his own to get exercize and "fun" assuming he can be trusted off leash. I am sorry to hear about this and I understand how badly you want this to work. My boys are a part of my everyday life...and I know how happy it makes you when you can take them with you everywhere. I, too, hae had to make adjustments because of Ruger who doesn't like strangers and WILL bite. On the occasion that I have people in my home that are strangers or anywhere for that matter, Ruger is leashed to me. He is very controlled and probably the best behaved dog you will ever meet as we have been working on this since I realized his temperment. Having said that, I know his limits and adjust the circumstances accordingly. I am able to take him to work everyday, to parks, to friends homes, hotels, crowded areas, etc. without issue. He knows the rules, I know his limits. We go away from the "crowd" so that I can make sure he gets his playtime or whatever he needs and otherwise he is happy to be by my side...Sitting if I sit, standing if I stand , walking if I walk, etc. .......BUT he is an independent mind and a confident and capable dog so I have learned his boundaries (No strangers within 4 feet or so) inside a social situation, no attempts to reach out to me.....Basically, I look at all situations from his point of view and make sure that he is not put into a situation that he feels he needs to protect me.We worked really hard to get here.

Ruger is my very best friend and without a doubt, my protector and I couldn't be happier and I would never consider leaving him home if I can avoid it so I do what I have to in order for both of to enjoy life. Ruger loves other dogs (for the most part) but will NOT tolerate a pushy, dominant dog so I watch closely and introduce appropriately in those situations but as a rule he loves to play with other dogs.

I guess I babbled on quite a bit and I apologize. I understand how important this is to you and it is something I feel very strongly about, too and although I don't think that things can be worked out between these two, I DO believe you can make it work in such a way that both dogs can still enjoy the outings and you can have your buddy with you.

Also, the reason there was no mention of Magnum in this is because he LOVES people and other dogs so no issues there.

I wish you the best with this and look forward to hearing updates.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Also, you have already gotten some fantastic advice BUT I just want to say that I totally disagree with #6 on Ceecee's list. I know for Ruger.....Keeping me safe is the most important thing in his world...all of the other things are secondary to him and by trying to force him not to "own" (I prefer to term protect) me would be asking for added chaos as well as effecting the bond and the trust we share. Personally, I don't think this is a good idea. At a shelter this may work well but you and your dog are bonded and he has a "job" and that must be respected. IMO, of course.

 

[CeeCee]

Kris has some very good points and it's all going to come down to knowing your dog - what motivates them and pushes them over the edge. You also have to know what you're comfortable handling and what you're not. If you're not comfortable, the dogs will know it and that will only exacerbate the situation.

Kris, Zeek is with Ruger - he takes exception to pushy "cock of the walk" dogs.

Also, you have already gotten some fantastic advice BUT I just want to say that I totally disagree with #6 on Ceecee's list. I know for Ruger.....Keeping me safe is the most important thing in his world...all of the other things are secondary to him and by trying to force him not to "own" (I prefer to term protect) me would be asking for added chaos as well as effecting the bond and the trust we share. Personally, I don't think this is a good idea. At a shelter this may work well but you and your dog are bonded and he has a "job" and that must be respected. IMO, of course.

 

[whit72]

I think protecting keeping you safe, and owning are all relative terms to a dog. They won't protect, keep safe or guard anything they don't consider theirs or own.


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[Kujo]

Thank you everyone for all the great advice! I have known for some time now that Kujo doesn't respond well to other dominant male dogs. I do know that this was essentially my fault just by bringing Kujo into that situation; my brother has been pushing for me to bring Kujo over so they can be around each other and prepare for camping trips. This particular gathering was a very poor choice on my part. I guess I caved even when I knew I shouldn't, that won't happen again. Perhaps when camping on neutral ground their won't be so much testosterone in the air, but I won't count on that.

Kujo is extremely bonded to me, like Kris said, I don't think he could handle being told to stay away from me in most situations, he would be stressed and still focus on me. So I plan on keeping him tethered to me for the most part on our camping trips, he does extremely well off leash, he will not wonder off, so we'll just have to do our own thing when we're not in camp.

I do think I'll try a group walk though (on a camping trip), might help, might not. Worth a shot.

Daily interaction between these two is never going to happen, we have two very different schedules. So I accept that they'll probably never even really tolerate each other, but if kept separated I think they will just ignore each other, which is what I'm after at this point.

Again, I really appreciate all the replies and honest advice given. You guys brought me back to the reality of being a mastiff mommy.

Luckily this seems to be Kujo's only downfall, other male dogs. I don't think this applies to ALL male dogs as he has a male (fixed) pitmix buddy that he loves to play with. Our house, their house, it doesn't matter, they just love to play. But I'm not about to go test this theory, he met this dog when he was 4-5 months old, which is a big factor I think.

If the other dog is a bitch, forget about it, big or small he'll flirt and wrestle and submit to any bitch.

He has no issues with people, I have yet to find someone he really dislikes. When this incident happened he even went into protective mode for someone else. So if this is the only thing I need to be cautious about, fine by me! I know I am lucky compared to some, so I won't be bitching about this

 

[God of Peace]

It has been 20 years since I have owned an Intact DDB so I am reading with interest. 20 years ago my guy was intact as the breeder asked me to not neuter him after she found out he was 110lbs at 7 months. He topped out at 175Lbs at 28 months. I was obligated under contract to neuter him at 6 months but I was away on business at the time. I never did have a problem with him and he was never aggressive to any other dog unless he was provoked and only once he did pick up a large Dobe my the neck and then hold him down on the ground. The Dobe attacked or attempted to and my guy as defending himself. He let go when I told him to and came and sat down at my side.

Our last dog as intact as he had a bad heart and the vet did not want to put him under for the procedure ad said he would be fine. Never once did I have an issue with him either in spraying or being aggressive towards people or other dogs again unless he was attacked. I guess I have been lucky over the years with this issue.

 

[NYDDB]

I would have to agree with most of what's been said, especially regarding DDBs around other male dogs.

Mateo has been socialized like crazy since I brought him home, and has a high tolerance for all kinds of situations, people, most other dogs...except if they are large and intact. If we are out walking and happen to pass one on the street, giving a WIDE BERTH is the best option. Both dogs have usually smelled each other before the humans have a clue (although I have become super sensitive to Mateo's body language, tension on the leash, etc.) so I can respond accordingly. But giving them space is key, I believe. Do not allow them to push into each other's personal space (or the space of their owner, whom they will protect), and things will be cool. Not butterflies and rainbows, but tolerable.

While researching the breed before I brought him home, I knew what to expect as he matured-- that most male DDBs will not tolerate other intact males. Even though he played great with everyone as a pup...I was anticipating that eventually the hormonal thing would kick in and "playing nice with all the dogs, all the time" was just not going to happen.

He does have his buddies- some neutered males, and all the females, LOL..that he is best buddies with. He even is fine hanging around one or two intact (but VERY calm) dogs that we run across occasionally. But beyond that, it's too stressful, for me and him.

Kujo- do not see this as your dog's "downfall." No judgement! They are a powerful breed, they think and act independently at times, as they were bred to do.

Live and learn. I am doing that every single day, LOL.

I hope the camping trips will be fun, without too much stress involving the dogs.

Just remember to give them space...

 

[Kujo]

Kujo- do not see this as your dog's "downfall." No judgement! They are a powerful breed, they think and act independently at times, as they were bred to do.

Live and learn. I am doing that every single day, LOL.

I hope the camping trips will be fun, without too much stress involving the dogs.

Just remember to give them space...

You are absolutely right, I didn't even realize the negativity of what I said until you pointed it out. It's not a downfall, it's just part of owning an intact dominant breed. I accept this. The guilty feelings I have are for knowing there was an issue, and going ahead and testing the water anyway. I know better and wont be making that mistake again.

Fact is, these guys are big and powerful, if you aren't 100% sure there won't be an issue, keep them leashed so you can control the situation.