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A Very Controversial Topic....

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
she appears to be a physical wreck as well , imo , that dog would do best and recover better acclimated to and then kept in a large secure yard ....she looks like she's spent her entire life in a crate , sad to see ...... one of the biggest reasons I don't use crates for my pups and dogs is I want them moving ......... ddb as a breed have a pretty high incidence of hip dysplasia , being confined to a small area for excessive amounts of time leads to dogs in the physical condition of this german shepherd , that type of physical condition in a large heavy breed with hd is a death sentence ............ have you tried putting the crate in the outside kennel for her ? you could just do it while your home for short periods of time , just like teaching a pup to be alone ......

I didn't think she looked like she'd spent her entire life in a crate necessarily, but there's no way to really tell I guess. Neglected and a physical wreck for sure. I've seen dogs that have spent their entire lives on a short chain that looked very similar. Judging by her physical condition that would have been my guess. I do think that a crate out in a fenced area might not be a bad idea. She definitely could benefit from moving around more.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
I've seen some pretty wrecked dogs on chains also . I assumed this one to be an indoor dog as he was described as unsettled outside and comfortable in a crate in a small room ........... I also have friend who keep their dogs on chains , some well cared for and valuable dogs ..... a dog on an 8 foot chain has about 50 square feet of room
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
I've seen some pretty wrecked dogs on chains also . I assumed this one to be an indoor dog as he was described as unsettled outside and comfortable in a crate in a small room ........... I also have friend who keep their dogs on chains , some well cared for and valuable dogs ..... a dog on an 8 foot chain has about 50 square feet of room

I was thinking with how she looks and flea infested she looked more like the dogs that I've worked with that were short chain and dog house dogs, but that's definitely a good point you make. I also know people that have outside dogs that are cared for and valued. Usually hunting dogs.
 

kingmark

Well-Known Member
I had thought to have a constructive discussion. I'm unsure why you chose to ask a passive aggressive and rude question. Perhaps that wasn't your intent. "Sadly, accidental rudeness occurs alarmingly often." - Professor Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Half Blood-Prince

And you asked if I understood you now.

"Yes ... blessed as I am with extraordinary brainpower, I understood everything you told me. I think you might even consider the possibility that I understood more than you did." - Professor Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince

This was supposed to be amusing, btw. I'm listening to a HP audiobook while I sew a service dog bandana and vest. Anyway, thank you for expanding upon your original answer. I do think we can all learn from other perspectives as long as we all remain respectful and polite.
Ofcourse we should all stick together and help each others because we are doing all this for the love of the dogs, and any dog lover is my friend . Also we can learn a lot from others as we learn through all our life ,so this forum is great place learn new things ,tricks and open our views :)
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
she appears to be a physical wreck as well , imo , that dog would do best and recover better acclimated to and then kept in a large secure yard ....she looks like she's spent her entire life in a crate , sad to see ...... one of the biggest reasons I don't use crates for my pups and dogs is I want them moving ......... ddb as a breed have a pretty high incidence of hip dysplasia , being confined to a small area for excessive amounts of time leads to dogs in the physical condition of this german shepherd , that type of physical condition in a large heavy breed with hd is a death sentence ............ have you tried putting the crate in the outside kennel for her ? you could just do it while your home for short periods of time , just like teaching a pup to be alone ......

I actually know this dog somewhat. She's was an indoor dog believe it or not. I think she is used to confined to long hours at a time either in a room or something. I don't think she has been crate trained otherwise the owner would have given me the crate when she gave me all her things, like everything including poop bags and her beds. Her gait is not what I'm used to. Her rear end seems to slope downwards when she walks like she's weak, but she has no problems going for a ball. She has pretty low stamina and burps often. Someone is always home giving her breaks and walks and exercise in the yard. She's still confined to herself because I have not introduced her to the pack yet.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Has she had a vet check yet? Do you think she was just neglected or do you think there's a possibility of something like EPI or malabsorption syndrome? I guess with the flea infestation it's probably neglect rather than a physical issue.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
german shepherds tend to have that ridiculous rear and horrible painful looking gait they for some breed for ............
 

Rugers-Kris

Well-Known Member
Hi, Boxergirl. Good to see you as well. It took some doing to be able to get back in to the forum. It didn't recognize my username...then my password... blah, blah, blah. The boys are doing wonderfully and I'm going to post a thread shortly with new pictures. How about you and yours? I hope all is well.
I think the "failed their dog" statement is being taken way out of context. If you have a dog that is able to accept crating in an emergency situation without causing them stress then that statement doesn't apply to you. If you have a dog that would freak out, and I believe each of us knows our dogs well enough to know the answer here, then if you chose not to try to at least do minimal training to help the dog if they were to have to be crated then you've done your dog a disservice. I happen to have a boy that couldn't be crated. He loves his crate and willingly takes naps there, but if the door was closed he would hurt himself. Seven years later and he can be crated, in an XL wire crate, for periods of time. I feel good about that because like I said, if he ended up at an emergency clinic he WOULD be crated and it would have terrified him and he would have had to be sedated.

Good to see you Rugers-Kris! Would love to see pics of the boys.
 

Rugers-Kris

Well-Known Member
My statement wasn't at all a blanket statement and there was plenty of meaning it it.

Whether you agree with me or not, it is my opinion. A life spent 8 hours a day in a cage is not a good life. That's the way I see it whether you like it or not.

Why do you assume that it would be miraculous if someone could train the dog (or exercise, etc.) the dog to not eat the house?

If you can't train him... I didn't say you should not have him, but there are other options besides everyday in a crate. Doggie daycare, Dog walkers,......

There are options better than locking your dog in a cage every day.

FYI: Having given more explanation this post is no longer generalized and it was never bias as although I do not crate train my dogs, I'm not anti-crate.
I *really* can't stand blanket statements like this.

So because I work a 40 hour week and I own a dog who will eat couches and drywall, I shouldn't own him? I should rehome my 165 lb reactive dog to someone who miraculously has the experience to train him and can afford $200 a month in food and insurance payments while never leaving their home?

I mean, come on. Either say something meaningful or don't say anything at all. Biased and inaccurate generalizations help no one here.
My statembet was n
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
Has she had a vet check yet? Do you think she was just neglected or do you think there's a possibility of something like EPI or malabsorption syndrome? I guess with the flea infestation it's probably neglect rather than a physical issue.
Going on Monday.
 

Bailey's Mom

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
I am no expert: 1. But, I had to deal with my Rottie, Grand-Puppy who spent 6 months in a crate, no bigger than her 6-month self, was not exercised, loved,. cared for, enriched.....nothing. She is highly reactive....aggressive...she bites..., but, not too much so far...nipping and then withdrawing, awaiting the next attack, at which point we intervene. She has drawn blood over and over again. IS IT HER FAULT? NO! Was it her previous owner's fault? Absolutely!!!! These people were idiots. They were guilty of dog/child abuse. She was a puppy!!!!, she was abused in every way a puppy could be abused. When my daughter answered an add to adopt her, she didn't have the training or sensibility to understand what she was getting herself into...she just saw a little black and tan face, with a wistful, longing look for something better. She adopted her, and the shit hit the fan.

The hated cage, was replaced by a large roomy crate, with blankets and pillows and toys and food and water.
She was walked...the first walks of her life, and her pads bled! She couldn't walk far...her pads were unused to walking anywhere! That she had PTSD...it's a given. She had been in a cage in a kitchen, and she was aware of all the movements of the house. Her family....can you call it that?...rattled and banged the cage, the two small children taunted and abused her through the cage links. Her life was hell! THIS IS A DAMAGED DOG.
When my daughter was hurt in a car accident, she couldn't walk the dog, and notwithstanding my objection, she adopted another dog to keep her dog happy and busy. THIS WAS ANOTHER TYPE OF ABUSE.

We have tried to enrich this dog's life. We took them in...THREE DOGS IN ONE SMALL HOUSE!...But she never got over her beginnings. And,I admit, I have often talked to my daughter about putting her down. SHE IS A VERY DANGEROUS DOG. She's fine...then she's not...then she's an attack dog, then she's a lap puppy. You can't tell from day to day. She is always...almost always...incarcerated, in one form or another. The sun rarely shines on her skin. My heart is broken over Bella.

My daughter's insurance covered specialists for behavioural issues. And my daughter used them. She attempted to use the online resources to deactivate her, but there was almost no adjustment. My home, while they were here, was a nightmarescape. I was always on high alert. My husband installed a steel fence between the hallway and the living room to inhibit them from attacking at the door. The fence allowed visitors to come in...be identified and welcomed, giving the dogs their understanding of the new person. It worked, but it wasn't a guarantee of behaviour. Our next door neighbours came over for cards one night and Bella, after allowing them in, attacked the man after he was through the protective gate.

I know the situation above isn't the "ordinary" situation most people face, but it strained and polluted the relationship that I had with my daughter. I didn't want my daughter to move out considering her health and the dogs' needs, but she did. A young, very accomplished man, lured her from our home...(notwithstanding our extreme objectives) and she moved out...out of town...and away from our protection, and then...HE DUMPED HER AND THE DOGS AND ALL HELL HAS BEEN BREAKING LOOSE EVER SINCE!!!!!

My daughter believes that the dogs are better out of town....fewer people. But Bella got loose recently and attacked a neighbour's dog. There is never any peace. There is no fix for a dog that has been incarcerated and deprived of human contact and stimulation over such a protracted time. We Didn't Fail This Dog....but someone did. Early training would have made her a well balanced dog. She is broken, and no amount of crating or training will wipe out her FEAR, and her reactiveness.

NO ONE FIX WORKS FOR EVERYONE. THERE IS NO COOKIE-CUTTER ANSWER. NO ONE FIX WILL WORK FOR YOUR DOGS, BUT, consistency promotes a possibility. Consistency and love, reasonable crating and enrichment, and exposure to new and unusual circumstances, all bode well for you having a stable dog.

Crates are a valuable tool...but they can become torture. No One In Their Right Mind Wants That. The above is a cautionary tale.
 
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Elana P

Well-Known Member
That's laughable. First of all, I haven't had Zeph since he was a puppy, I rescued him at 7 months of age. Second of all, the idea that you can teach a determined and destructive chewer to NOT be a determined and destructive chewer when humans aren't around shows your inexperience with that type of dog. There's no teaching a dog who has learned that chewing is fun to not chew.

I'm not a 'crate for the sake of crating' person. Titan has free roam of the house, and has had that since 10 months of age, because he's not a chewer. I provide freedom for my dogs as soon as I am capable (and I also drive home from work on my lunch to let my crated dog out, which adds an HOUR of commute to my day).



I think that is *exactly* the situation that is occurring on this thread. Until they have a dog who is literally eat-through-the-wall destructive, they will have no idea what it's like, and will continue to make blanket statements and generalizations and ridiculous claims that destructive chewing is somehow a thing that can be trained away.

Zeph gets 2 leashed walks and one 30-40 minute off leash run a day, as well as 5-6 training sessions. So he's not understimulated or underexercised by ANY means. He found out that chewing was fun because his former family did not crate him as a puppy. Had he been crated from a young age and never been given the opportunity to figure out that ripping up carpet and eating walls was a good time, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be having this problem now.

But NOT being properly crated and supervised, along with being ignored, bored, underexercised and understimulated, is what caused Zephyr's issues (which extend far past destructive chewing).
 

Elana P

Well-Known Member
Some people seem to think that they are the only ones with dog experience on this Forum, or the only ones who had ever had a chewer of the canine nation, or the only ones who work.

Please let me disabuse you of that notion.

I have had a dobermann who liked to chew on walls, and a Shepherd/Husky cross, who liked to eat linoleum off floors.

You ask what to do with a dog who enjoys these pass times? My response, is: TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING.

Just like you house train dogs not to pee and poop in the house. Just like you train them how to walk on leash, how to obey commands, how not to steal food, not to jump on people, not to eat your laundry, how to fetch a ball, how to play gently and not bite.... Just like you teach them everything else.

I'm not quite sure what you find so laughable and or difficult to understand about the concept, if you have as much dog experience as you claim to have, which would give you the right to tell everyone else that they don't know what they are doing.

I get the feeling, that you are really struggling with this issue, and that that's why you are getting so defensive about the whole thing. Talking to an experienced dog trainer, who deals with dogs who suffer with compulsive disorders might be a good idea.

Now, back to the crating ....

Like other members have mentioned, 20 -30 years ago , hardly anyone ever heard of crating, and people would have found the idea laughable, if not downtight crazy.

How on earth did people ever manage to live with their dogs for thousands of years before the idea of a crate ever reared up it's head?

I'll tell you how. They trained their dogs.

Now someone here seemed to think, that I live somewhere where crating is not an acceptanle option. I live in Canada, where many many dogs spend their days and nights in crates.

Someone also suggested that I didn't know what I was talking about, that I just got my ideas off the internet, etc. Let me assure you, that that's not the case (but thanks for the idea, which got me actually reading a lot of articles on the internet about the pros and cons of crating dogs over the last couple of days).

Here are other people's opinions, and some articles that I came across on the internet, thanks to your suggestion.


*****************************************************************************


I think it's utterly cruel to routinely cage your dog all day every day just because you can't figure out how to train it behave in the house, or don't exercise it enough so it can behave in the house. A tired dog is a good dog.


I'm just a little bothered by how far we've come from the early days of crates, when people reacted to them as little cages, to now viewing them so positively that they're considered as an alternative to risking your rug. Not a slam on anyone here, just the reality that you know there are people jumping on the "crate good" zeitgeist to justify never letting their dog loose in their house.





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Keeping Dogs In Kennels Can Literally Drive Them Crazy
STEPHEN MESSENGER

APR 10, 2014
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Not surprisingly, most dogs don’t seem particularly excited when it comes time to be put in a kennel. Who would be? But according to a new study, keeping our canine friends locked up doesn’t just make them uncomfortable -- it may be literally driving them crazy.
Researchers from the University of Bristol’s Anthrozoology Institute recently examined videotapes of 30 police-trained German shepherds as they spent time in their kennels after work. What they found was that the animals showed tell-tale signs of extreme stress and even temporary mental illness.
Hamish Denham, the study’s lead author, says that even the highly disciplined police dogs appeared to lose it when kept confined, exhibiting manic behaviors associated with failing mental health. The dogs were recorded repetitively jumping and bouncing off walls, pacing back and forth, spinning, and walking in circles around the perimeter of their pens.
The study notes that “some dogs may find isolation from humans particularly aversive, hence affecting their reactions both to being left in a kennel and to being taken to the veterinary surgeon.”
Researchers provide no definitive explanation of this behavior, but it seems rather intuitive. Extensive studies on the effects of solitary confinement of humans has shown similar symptoms of mental disorders -- with many considering the punishment to be a form of psychological torture.
While this study focuses on dogs that are properly stimulated throughout the day, the effects of isolation for the thousands of dogs kept in rescue center kennels is likely much more profound. A paper released by the Stafford Animal Shelter in Montana describes a mental illness, known as “kennel crazy” or “kennelitis” in canines left too long in confinement:
“Symptoms of this stress-induced canine compulsive behavior disorder can include spinning and jumping in the kennel, chewing incessantly, and jumping and pulling excessively if on a lead... Other more depression-like symptoms may include self-mutilation, lack of appetite and lethargy.”
The shelter says that in some cases, the effects of this illness can render dogs unadoptable. Sadly though, overcrowded animal shelters in the United States often don’t have the time or resources to provide dogs with much time, if any at all, outside of their kennels -- leading to mental suffering that will go unresolved for many of the animals that fail to find a home.


I’ve always been baffled by the idea of crating. I always thought it was just a night thing, and it wasn’t until recently I found out people do it during the day as well. I just don’t get it.


Although a crate may teach a puppy not to relieve himself when he’s in it, this won’t teach him anything about recognizing the house in general as a place to keep clean. When you finally let him dog out of the crate, he’ll still have to learn how to respect the entire house as his home and not use it as a toilet. It’s ironic that housetraining is the main reason most people start using crates, because crating is not the best or quickest way to housetrain!
Many dog “professionals” are less skilled at housetraining dogs than a good percentage of “laymen” who accomplish it quickly, kindly and effectively without crates. And professionals often accept customers’ money for using only the crate-training option because it is easy. Mastering how to housetrain a dog that spends almost all of its time in a cage requires little skill, effort or time and little attention to individual dogs.
We believe it doesn’t make sense for dog training customers to waste money on crate-training advice or to hire trainers who believe in crating.
There’s no need for extraordinary talent or a special “way” with animals to get a dog behind bars not to cause problems- as long as you keep him behind bars. If a “professional” therapist locked a person in a linen closet for 12 hours, the person would probably try to hold their bladder and bowels, too, rather than standing or sitting in their waste.


Both well known “experts” and many folks on online discussion boards like to cite the fact that, even when the doors are finally opened, their dogs rush back to their crates. But if a dog ever runs back to his crate, or seems to seek it out constantly as a place for security, this is actually an extremely disturbing sign that may mean that he’s become afraid to seek people for his security.
Whether it happened in your home or at a former owner’s, your dog may have become fearful after excessive crating. And he may have learned to fear facing a world that seems intimidating to him because of his lack of exposure to normal stimuli throughout his life. If you bring home a dog that’s known nothing but crating for long hours every day and night since puppyhood and you suddenly attempt to free him, when you first release him he may run back to his crate. But if your dog seems intensely motivated to get back inside the cage, this is actually a very bad sign which signals intense anxiety- not an indicator he loves his crate. The most common reason many dogs endure confinement without protest is love! Most often, if your dog seems complacent about remaining in a crate, it’s because he loves you so much he’s willing to take your direction. And he endures caging because he thinks you want him to. Of course dogs sometimes like to relax or avoid stress in small protected spaces, just like people might feel safe in their cozy bedroom or bath. But a dog no more likes being locked in a crate and abandoned all day than you’d like it if your spouse locked you in your bedroom or bathroom every day for 10 hours while he or she went to work.
3) The truth is a dog is not a “den animal”. And you don’t replicate his native environment if you lock him in a cage!
Some people hear this myth about dogs being “den animals” repeated so often they just start replaying it in their heads like a catchy little jingle. The concept, which you can find “explained” at length in online and written literature, is based on the fact that wolves whelp, or give in birth, in underground “dens.” The mother wolf sleeps with and cares for the pups in the den and occasionally leaves them there, concealed from predators, for approximately the first eight weeks of their lives- but not longer.
After this the pups are introduced to the world at large, they wander about quite a bit and the den is replaced by an outdoor rendezvous site. Soon, the pups start accompanying adults on hunts. And, as the wolf pups mature and become adults they primarily devote their lives to vigorous activities like hunting, playing, migrating and freely making choices of how and where to move their bodies. Wolves are inquisitive, highly active hunting animals that can travel between 30 and 50 miles per day! They seem like the antithesis of what we’d think of when we hear “den animal”; wolves are certainly not creatures that spend their lives contained in small spaces underground.
Animals that seem more aptly described as “den” animals in the sense that people think of the term might include moles, prairie dogs or rats- but not wolves. And certainly not pet dogs! Try to envision an adult Irish Wolfhound, German Shepherd, St. Bernard or a beautiful white Standard Poodle in full show coat living their entire lives in a cramped underground earthen den. The concept seems quite creepy. And if a dog really was a “den animal”, why on earth would anybody adopt one, buy it a rhinestone collar, kiss it on the lips and call it our best friend?


Even the ASPCA admits, in their own “Weekend Crate Training” article, “An adult dog can be crated for as long as eight hours a day on occasion. But daily crating of this length could compromise your dog’s mental and physical well-being.”


These days, many dog writers, bloggers and dog professionals are instructing dog owners to confine their dogs in crates (or small wire cages) for housetraining, behavior training, overnight and whenever they leave home. Is your family using a crate because someone told you to? If so, how many hours total per day are you actually crating your dog?
Every family has their own idea of how many hours it is okay to crate a dog per day. And, as professionals, we know that this number depends upon many factors. Factors that influence your dog’s particular reaction to how long he is crated each day include his age and condition, how much exercise and interaction he receives when he is not crated and many other important variables. Some dogs that suffer from serious anxiety cannot tolerate crating at all. And as your dog’s owner, you are in a unique position to observe his reactions and assess his needs.
However, if you’re like many families, you may not be aware of how many hours total per day you are crating, or how many hours total per day your dog has to move around freely in your home. Almost always, when we find a family crating their dog on the advice of some dog professional, we also find that they are not adding up the total hours the dog spends in the crate correctly. Professionals who fail to explain crate training properly are to blame, because and they often issue instructions that cause problems for well-meaning families and their dogs.
4-6 hours per day is the limit that some experts consider the point where confinement can start to damage a dog’s development, mental health and bond with humans.
But, if you are an average working family and you follow the advice of a dog professional who tells you to crate your adult dog or young puppy whenever you are away at work, this is 8 hours per day. If you add another 2 hours for commute time or errands, this is 10 hours crate time. Then, if you also add a full night in the crate (as many professionals now recommend for both pups and adult dogs) this means your dog now spends 18 hours per day in the crate.
18 hours per day in a dog crate simply represents an average workday and commute plus an average overnight!
If your family also leaves your dog or puppy to go out to dinner and a movie or attend to other obligations, your dog may spend 23 hours of 24 in the crate. This is not unusual. Many families are crating like this on the advice of dog professionals. And most dog industry professionals that recommend crating use the wrong parameters.
You will notice that most “dog people” who publically recommend crate training do not give a maximum number of hours total per 24 hour day that it is okay to crate a dog. Instead, they state a number of hours at a stretch- usually 4- that it is okay to leave a dog crated. But, following this advice, even if an owner lets their dog out once every four hours to quickly empty his bladder, eat, play or take a 10 or 15 minute walk, the dog could still spend 22-23 hours total confined! And, unfortunately, this often happens in busy homes.
There is a difference of opinion whether crating is okay at all. In our book, Dogs Hate Crates, we state our professional opinion that there’s never any inherent benefit or good result from crating. (For example, there is no true scientific basis for the myths that dogs are “den animals” and that “dogs love crates”). At best, a crate can only protect a dog from certain immediate environmental dangers. And we acknowledge that there are some situations where a crate could be the best method of temporary containment for a dog’s safety or other safety reasons. But there are no controlled research studies to prove that long term crating shapes a dog’s psyche in any positive fashion. And, in our book, we discuss scientific studies and expert opinions on why excessive crating can be extremely dangerous, physically and psychologically, not only to dogs, but to the people who interact with them.
Each person has their own opinion on what degree of crating is “excessive” or damaging.



Dogs Not Behaving Like They Used To? It May Be “Crate State”, a syndrome caused by excessive dog crating
by Ray & Emma Lincoln Authors of Dogs Hate Crates
For years veterinarians and behaviorists have documented a troubling syndrome called “kennelosis” that can occur after dogs are excessively caged in shelters and puppy mills. Symptoms of kennelosis can leave dogs unmanageable and aggressive. So many shelters mandate frequent walks and socialization to try to combat extended cage time.
Unfortunately, while these shelters acknowledge the risks of long-term caging, many in the dog industry, especially many dog trainers and dog writers, are deliberately ignoring these risks and demanding that families look their pet dogs in small wire dog crates for extended periods. All-day and all-night crating like these people recommend (which can sometimes total over 18 hours per day) can then produce a constellation of symptoms similar to kennelosis in family dogs.
We have termed this increasingly prevalent canine behavior syndrome “Crate State”.
If your new dog seems inexplicably “different” from any previous dog, and you can’t seem to handle him or her, the problem may be Crate-State.
Your dog is likely to suffer from Crate-State if he or she is:
Hyperkinetic – hyperactive, frenzied, in constant movement that can’t be stopped
Clumsy/Awkward – lacks proprioception (knowledge of the body in relation to space), doesn’t seem to know his or her own size; can’t seem to notice pain, or notice if he or she causes people pain
Always Lunging– leaping, flinging itself at people, extreme leash pulling
Reactive– showing extreme reactions to any new stimuli, including people, dogs & trips
Unfocused– glazed, distracted, unresponsive, acts “stupid”, won’t listen, won’t learn
Snappy– nippy, growly, nasty towards kids; may “defend” crate, toys, food
Dislikes Touch– “not a cuddler”, flinches abnormally from human touch, avoids people
Abnormally Destructive– chewing past teething stage, chewing weird objects like walls or rocks, extreme stunts like jumping through plate glass windows
Weirdly Repetitive- continuous self-mutilation, barking, licking, whining, pacing, tail chasing, digging or “humping”; constantly bumping, scratching or annoying people
10 Abnormally Dirty– adult dog never fully housetrains, relieves itself in weird spots like human beds, lies in or eats excrement; fails to groom normally or has an abnormally “sick” smell
Does your new dog do all or most of these things?
Even if you don’t currently crate your “problem” or “out of control” dog, consider the dog’s past.
Dogs are most susceptible to lack of stimuli and socialization when they are developing puppies just learning about the world. And, these days many dogs start their lives caged in puppy mills or excessively crated by former owners, while others spend months, or years, crated in shelters or rescues.
Sometimes, less time in a crate, or less crate time combined with a little exercise and the simplest obedience training, is all that’s needed to improve a “problem” dog’s behavior. But concerned pet parents must use caution. Many of today’s dogs have spent so much time immobilized in crates that they are unfamiliar with day-to-day items and stimuli in the real world. A dog with the symptoms of “Crate State” could get hurt if he or she is immediately set free in the world without careful supervision.
The problem isn’t hopeless. Just like you can introduce a young puppy to all the rules and routines of everyday life, you can also reintroduce the world to an adult or adolescent dog suffering from Crate State, as long as you do so with proper caution. You may be able to do this on your own, or you may need the help of a compassionate trainer.
As the authors of Dogs Hate Crates, an expose on the effect of excessive crating on dogs, families and society, we recommend a turnaround in the $50 Billion pet industry where crate training has exploded in popularity in the past 20 years.
We think pet parents should demand a new crop of dog trainers willing to positively shape dog’


Dogs who do not react well to negative punishment may find crating highly stressful. Long term or excessive crate confinement "may lead to emotional and behavioral deterioration over time." To the extent that crating reduces the amount of exposure to different environmental and social situations, it can make dogs more reactive (fearful or aggressive) or intolerant of novel situations. Crating "may significantly exacerbate the distress and emotional reactivity associated with separation distress". Behavioral problems that compels owners to crate train in the first place, may be exacerbated by the negative effects of crating.[1]
A dog may form a strong attachment to the crate eventually, feeling comfort and safety, after the initial feeling of distress and vulnerability. This behavioral effect has been compared to Stockholm syndrome. Dogs that are trained to sleep in a crate, when allowed to sleep in a bedroom, can show signs consistent with that of separation distress, suggesting that dogs may love their crate "perhaps in some cases more than they love the owner." This bond with the crate may interfere with the human-animal bond and exacerbate bond-related behavior problems such as separation distress and owner-directed aggression.[1]
Steven Lindsay in Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training states that while "the role of crate confinement in the etiology of behavior problems has not been scientifically established [...] empirical impressions and logic dictate that it probably plays an important role in the development or exacerbation of many adjustment problems."[1] He argues that "the widespread practice of routinely caging a dog at night and then again during the day for periods totaling 16 to 18 hours (or more) is an extremely problematic practice that should not be condoned or encouraged, because it probably underlies the development of many adjustment problems, including aggression."[1] The purpose of crate training, he says, "should be to get the dog out of the crate as soon as possible, and to use the crate as little as possible in the service of training and space-management objectives."
LegislationEdit
In Sweden, regulations forbid keeping dogs in cages or other enclosures below a certain size. Exceptions are made for some situations, such as during travels or at dog shows/trials. Even then, the dogs have to be walked every two hours or three hours. The size required for an enclosure to be exempt from such regulations starts at 2m² (21.5 ft², about the area of a single/twin mattress.) for a small dog and up to 5.5m² (60 ft²) for a large dog.[12][13][14] Similar regulations exist in Finland.[15]



In the dog house: when does crating your canine become pet abuse?
Americans love to put their dogs in crates. But in Europe and Australia, it’s a big no-no. In Finland, it’s even illegal
Is crating your dog OK? Photograph: Eureka/Alamy
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Sofija Stefanovic
Thursday 25 June 2015 14.00 BST Last modified on Thursday 25 June 2015 15.07 BST
If you want to start a fight in a dog park, mention crates and watch the pro- and anti- tempers rise.
The process of crate training consists of keeping a puppy in a crate and letting it out to pee and poop. A dog won’t soil where it sleeps, so it will hold on until you let it outside. Many people continue using a crate throughout their dog’s adulthood to avoid destructive behaviors, or because they believe a crate makes a dog feel safe.
Crate training supporters cite experts arguing that such dogs thrive. Opponents shout just as loudly (“Dogschwitz-Barkenau” is how a Jewish friend refers to the enclosure).
I recently moved to the US from Australia with my two small dogs, and quickly learned that, unlike back home, many Americans are pro-crate.
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When we visited our new vet, the Village Veterinarian in New York City, practice manager Nina Torres told me their recommendation was to crate train. According to Torres, this allows dog owners to set boundaries, which results in less anxious dogs. “You confuse them if you allow them everywhere,” she says. According to Torres, about 80% of the clinic’s canine patients spend their days – when their owners work – in crates.
When I asked John Parncutt in Australia (of John the Vet, our previous clinic) how many of his patients use crates, he said it’s a minority – and that the dogs are crated overnight, rather than during the day. “I probably hear from someone about once every couple of months saying they’re going to be crate-training their new pup.”
The only person I knew in Australia to crate train a dog is Sheryl, an American living in Melbourne. In New York, Sheryl says, “everyone did it”. She decided to crate train her pup in Australia, putting Dizzy the schnoodle in a crate overnight (getting up every three hours to let her pee) and while she was at work, during which time a dog walker would come. That’s a total of about 16 hours a day in a crate.
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The ASPCA says crates are best as a short-term management tool. Photograph: Christopher Furlong/Getty Images
Sheryl was shocked by the reaction Australians had to it. “It’s the biggest fight I had with my mother-in-law” Sheryl says. “She thought it was cruel, that it was like the dog was in a circus.”
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At work, Sheryl’s colleagues sent her photo-shopped images of Dizzy, in prison garb. But with the help of the crate, Dizzy was housetrained in just three months. “After a year, we stopped locking her in,” Sheryl says. Now Dizzy’s crate stays open, and she goes voluntarily into it each evening.
The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and other organizations compare a crate to a den: a safe space that dogs are naturally drawn to. ASPCA says crates are “best used as a relatively short-term management tool, not as a lifetime pattern of housing”. This is where opinions divide. Nina Torres says it’s fine for most adult dogs to be in a crate “nine hours maximum” during the day (with a walk in the middle), and then eight hours at night – unless they are seniors or large dogs needing to stretch their joints.
I work from home, so I observe my dogs’ behavior during the day. Though it is true that they sleep most of the time (as they would in a closed crate), they have their preferences. Sonia will often drag her blanket, mat and toy out and into a patch of sunlight. Natasha usually stays deep in her crate, under a blanket from where she yips every now and then as she dreams.
In an experiment where I locked the crates, Natasha was content, while Sonia whined, working the latch with her claws, eventually opening it to escape (like the velociraptors in Jurassic Park).


How to Win Friends and Influence People Not to Crate Their Dogs
Do you have friends or neighbors who keep their dog confined to a crate all day while they’re at work or to train a new puppy? Do you want to let them know that this is harmful, but you’re not sure how to address the issue in a friendly, nonconfrontational way? Here are some suggested tacks you can try:
Been there, done that. You could try telling the person that you’ve tried crating a dog yourself—or you know someone who did—and it ended disastrously. Dogs who are crated (caged) for long periods of time often develop mental health problems, including separation anxiety, hyperactivity, shyness, aggression, and obsessive-compulsive disorders like constant chewing and licking. Some animal shelters even have a term for it: “cage crazy.” Many dogs can be rehabilitated once the crating is stopped, but some dogs are permanently scarred by the experience. Tell your friends that you’d hate for them to go through the same thing that you (or your other friend) did and that you wish someone had told you then what you know now so that you could have avoided unintentionally tormenting your dog.
What’s it going to take to put you in this crate today? Some dog trainers, vets, groomers, and pet supply stores that promote crates just so happen to sell the cages themselves—isn’t that convenient? And isn’t it handy that some of these folks can then turn around and provide the training services and/or medications that you’re going to need to treat the behavior problems caused by locking your dog in a box all day? Sounds suspect, doesn’t it? Let your friend in on the secret.
Fire your dog trainer. Ask your friend if he or she is seeing results. Is the dog behaving better since being confined to a crate all day? More likely, the dog is actually behaving worse when he or she is finally let out of the crate. The dog probably is depressed (learned helplessness), tentative, fearful, or runs around like a maniac at the first taste of freedom. Dogs can’t learn how to interact normally with people or other animals when they spend all day inside a box—they need exercise and training, and they need feedback and the opportunity to practice what they’ve learned (such as self-restraint, making good decisions, etc.). Good dog trainers know this, which is why they do not recommend crates. Crating is promoted by trainers who either lack the skill to train a dog properly or who are more interested in having more paying customers than in actually solving the dogs’ problems by using a tailored approach. If a trainer advocates crating, tell your friend that it’s time to look for a better trainer.
Have you tried X, Y, and Z? Most dogs have crates either because a dog trainer/vet/salesperson advised it as a “must-have” accessory, like a leash or chew toy, or because the dog had an “accident” or got into some sort of trouble (chewed up a sofa cushion, stole the kids’ shoes, etc.). Most likely, these things happened when the dog was a youngster, and he or she has long since become housetrained and stopped teething. Those life stages are long gone, yet the crate/cage/solitary confinement remains, like keeping teenagers confined to the playpens that they crawled around in as toddlers. Urge your friend to try “weaning” the dog off the crate by first confining him or her to one room with a baby gate and seeing how things go. Of course, the house will need to be dog-proofed (share PETA’s safety tips with your friend), and arrangements will need to be made for someone to take the dog outside for a walk mid-day.


What’s Wrong With Crating Dogs and Puppies?
Most people don’t realize that animals who are caged for extended periods of time often become aggressive, withdrawn, hyperactive, and/or severely depressed, and they can also develop other problems, such as eating disorders. Crating for extended periods of time prevents dogs from fulfilling some of their most basic needs, including walking around, relieving themselves, and stretching.
There are numerous humane alternatives to crating for people whose schedules force them to leave their canine companions at home during the workday, including humane training, which teaches guardians effective ways to communicate with their animal companions. It is also vital that dogs get plenty of exercise, preferably in the morning (at least 45 minutes for a young dog)—tired dogs want to sleep, not “redecorate” the living room. Dogs should get at least one long walk every day, as well as several shorter walks and vigorous play sessions.
Dogs should not be expected to “hold it” all day while their guardians are at work. If you cannot return home during the day to provide a bathroom break for your dog, we recommend hiring a reputable dog-walking or pet-sitting service or asking a reliable friend or neighbor to take your dog out for a midday walk. A “doggie door” that provides access to a secure, fenced yard can also give dogs a way to relieve themselves and alleviate boredom, which will help prevent neuroses. And doggie daycare centers are popping up all over—they can provide dogs with a fun and safe place to socialize and enjoy their time while their guardians are away.



Animal Rights Uncompromised: Crating Dogs and Puppies
No matter what a pet shop owner or dog trainer might say, a dog crate is just a box with holes in it, and putting dogs in crates is just a way to ignore and warehouse them until you get around to taking care of them properly.
Crating is a popular “convenience practice” that is often used on adult dogs. It deprives dogs of the opportunity to fulfill some of their most basic needs, such as the freedom to walk around, the opportunity to relieve themselves, and the ability to stretch out and relax. It also prevents them from interacting with their environment and learning how to behave in a human setting.
Crating began as a misguided way for people to housetrain puppies. The theory was that a dog in a small cage will “hold it” rather than eliminating, and dog owners would thus not have to pay close attention to their puppies while they were confined to the crate. It wasn’t long before dog trainers began recommending crating for adult dogs who had any type of behavior problem as a way of stopping the behavior. But this method does not teach dogs good behavior, and it certainly doesn’t take into account their social, physical, and psychological requirements. Dogs are highly social pack animals who abhor isolation and who crave and deserve companionship, praise, and exercise. Forcing dogs to spend extended periods of time confined and isolated simply to accommodate their guardians’ schedules is unacceptable, and it exacerbates behavior problems, leading to even more crating.
Housetraining Myths
Crate training does not speed up the housetraining process. Regardless of the training method, puppies do not develop full bladder control until they are about 6 months old. It is counterproductive to crate young puppies in the hope that they will “hold it.” They are physically incapable of doing so and are eventually forced to urinate in their crates after experiencing great discomfort while trying not to soil their beds. Puppies who repeatedly soil their crates often lose the urge to keep them clean, which prolongs and complicates the housetraining process.
Pet store and puppy mill puppies, who are born and raised in crate-like structures, tend to be difficult to housetrain, and they may experience severe anxiety and develop fearful and/or destructive behavior if they are confined to crates. They may even injure themselves while trying to bite or scratch their way out.
Crate Training Ramifications
Studies have shown that long-term confinement is detrimental to the physical and psychological well-being of animals. Animals caged for extended periods can develop many different disorders, including the following:
Aggression
Withdrawal
Hyperactivity
Depression
Eating disorders
Obsessive licking
Separation anxiety
Inability to bond with humans
Muscle atrophy
When there is a better, more humane way to train dogs, why would we subject our canine companions to a training method that is obviously not in their best interests?
PETA does not oppose keeping a dog confined to a small area as necessary if it is in the dog’s best interests (e.g., when complete rest is ordered by a veterinarian or when confinement will keep the dog safe during travel). In such cases, guardians should always take steps to ensure that dogs are provided with bedding and the opportunity to relieve themselves and that they are given access to water, fresh air, food, companionship, and other basic necessities.
Crating Alternatives for Working Guardians
There are numerous humane alternatives to crating for people whose work schedules require that they leave their canine companions at home during the day. PETA supports humane, interactive dog training, which promotes and teaches guardians effective ways to communicate with their animal companions. Committed caretakers who successfully complete training and continue to provide their dogs with rewards for good behavior can be confident that their dogs will not engage in destructive behavior while they are away.


Separation anxiety. Attempting to use the crate as a remedy for separation anxiety won't solve the problem. A crate may prevent your dog from being destructive, but they may get injured in an attempt to escape. Separation anxiety problems can only be resolved with counterconditioning and desensitization procedures. You may want to consult a professional animal-behavior specialist for help.



Crating caution
A crate is not a magical solution to common canine behavior. If not used correctly, a dog can feel trapped and frustrated.
Never use the crate as a punishment. Your dog will come to fear it and refuse to enter.
Don't leave your dog in the crate too long. A dog that’s crated all day and night doesn't get enough exercise or human interaction and can become depressed or anxious. You may have to change your schedule, hire a pet sitter or take your dog to a daycare facility to reduce the amount of time they spend in their crate each day.
Puppies under six months of age shouldn't stay in a crate for more than three or four hours at a time. They can't control their bladders and bowels for that long. The same goes for adult dogs being housetrained. Physically, an older dog can hold it, but they don’t know they’re supposed to.
Crate your dog only until you can trust them not to destroy the house. After that, it should be a place they go voluntarily.
A crate may be your dog’s den, but just as you would not spend your entire life in one room of your home, your dog should not spend most of their time in their crate.
Can you imagine your dog spending years in a cage?



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marke

Well-Known Member
i have to admit i'm lovin this ...... it's like comparing me , someone who believes , knows :) , dogs need corrections , punishment as a lot of folks like to call it , to someone who beats , kicks , or abuses their dogs ........ as hiraeth said , used responsibly a crate beats the alternative for many dogs ........... it'd be easy to misuse a crate , but then folks that would do that would end up abusing the dog in some other way anyway ....... i'm sure the goal for anyone here is to leave the crate door open .......
 
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Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
I couldn't make it through the wall of text. Maybe break up your articles next time? It's a lot easier on the eyes and more people are likely to read smaller posts, even if there are a lot of them.

I don't see this being a constructive discussion. You seem intent on believing that those of us involved in this discussion are using the crate in an abusive manner or thinking it will do the training for us. That tells me that maybe you don't really understand how crate training works or have only seen a crate used irresponsibly. I did notice that the final article quotes PETA. PETA? I think that was a poor choice. It makes me question the credibility of whomever else you might have quoted.

used responsibly a crate beats the alternative for many dogs ........... it'd be easy to misuse a crate , but then folks that would do that would end up abusing the dog in some other way anyway ....... i'm sure the goal for anyone here is to leave the crate door open .......

Yes. Absolutely.
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
Some people seem to think that they are the only ones with dog experience on this Forum, or the only ones who had ever had a chewer of the canine nation, or the only ones who work.

Please let me disabuse you of that notion.

I have had a dobermann who liked to chew on walls, and a Shepherd/Husky cross, who liked to eat linoleum off floors.

You ask what to do with a dog who enjoys these pass times? My response, is: TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING.

Just like you house train dogs not to pee and poop in the house. Just like you train them how to walk on leash, how to obey commands, how not to steal food, not to jump on people, not to eat your laundry, how to fetch a ball, how to play gently and not bite.... Just like you teach them everything else.

I'm not quite sure what you find so laughable and or difficult to understand about the concept, if you have as much dog experience as you claim to have, which would give you the right to tell everyone else that they don't know what they are doing.

I get the feeling, that you are really struggling with this issue, and that that's why you are getting so defensive about the whole thing. Talking to an experienced dog trainer, who deals with dogs who suffer with compulsive disorders might be a good idea.

This is where I stopped reading. Your post is full of non-credible sources (PETA, really?) and again, from skimming those articles, they are discussing people who MISUSE crates. The MISUSE OF ANY TRAINING TOOL CAN BECOME ABUSIVE. Literally. You can abuse a dog with a flat collar. Do most of us use flat collars? Yes. Do must of us use them abusively? No.

How do you train a dog to not eat walls when the dog only behaves this way when you are not present? Walk them up to the wall and smack them a few times so that the dog learns to stay away from the wall? Maybe I could mix some bitter apple spray into a batch of paint and repaint my walls with it? Then he'd just rip up the carpet, instead.

But seriously. Instead of just saying general 'training', can you give me a step by step run down of how you stop a behavior that only occurs when you're not there?

Let me reiterate - Zephyr is a well-trained dog (as far as obedience goes) with habitual destructive chewing and other anxiety-based behaviors. Daycare is not an option - he's intact. A dog walker is not an option - he's 165 lbs and leash/barrier reactive when he sees other dogs, and I couldn't trust anyone else to control him.

I'm not sensitive about this issue. Zephyr and I have, and continue, to work through many of his problems. I just *really* can't stand people who are not accepting of the proper use of training tools, even if it's a tool they themselves don't employ. I don't use prong collars. I don't use e-collars. Do I think that they're abusive and everyone who uses them is an ineffective trainer? No. Do I think they can be used for abuse? Yes. But I'm not going to pretend to be some sort of armchair dog training God who gets to hand out judgments to other people who choose to properly use tools that I myself don't employ.

Would Zephyr's quality of life be higher if he wasn't crated for my work day? Well, yes, until he died from an obstruction or until I had to consider euthanizing him because there is no one else around who is going to be willing to tolerate his behavior and I can't afford to buy a new couch or re-drywall my house every weekend.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
How do you train a dog to not eat walls when the dog only behaves this way when you are not present? Walk them up to the wall and smack them a few times so that the dog learns to stay away from the wall? Maybe I could mix some bitter apple spray into a batch of paint and repaint my walls with it? Then he'd just rip up the carpet, instead.
by training them to not eat that stuff while you are present ...... knowing the word no along with voice inflection is a good start at that ..... then gradually leaving them alone in the situation a little at a time .......... sleep in a room with them loose at night .......... and those ideas aren't theories , i've taken many dogs that spent their lives in kennels and acclimated them to living in my house .......
 

CeeCee

Well-Known Member
Wouldn't it be nice if one answer fit every dog. Each dog is an individual and they each need different things from their humans and their environments to make them successful.

I have three dogs and two of them have demonstrated that they can be trusted to have free roam when I am not home. My third and youngest (is not there). I'm actually not sure if she will ever get there - only time will tell. She has not yet demonstrated that she will not try to engage the cats in play should she decide nap time is over - which only pisses them off and stresses them out - or climb up on shelves and help herself to tissues or barge through or jump the baby gate to the kitchen and help herself to the cat food.

When I do leave the house, Pru is kenneled, but only after she is taken for a long walk or good romp that burns her energy. When she's put in her kennel, I feed her breakfast, lunch, or dinner from a puzzle toy of some sort and with alternating crate safe chew toys. I do re-arrange my time so that I can come home at 4 or 4 hour intervals to get all of them out and pottied and played.

Like everything, it is all about knowing the individuals you share your life with and creating a healthy balance. There is no shame in responsibly using tools.
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
by training them to not eat that stuff while you are present ...... knowing the word no along with voice inflection is a good start at that ..... then gradually leaving them alone in the situation a little at a time .......... sleep in a room with them loose at night .......... and those ideas aren't theories , i've taken many dogs that spent their lives in kennels and acclimated them to living in my house .......

Since the one time I discovered he'd chewed on drywall, Zephyr has displayed ZERO destructive chewing behaviors when I'm around or *in the house*. He has free run of the house at night, and when I'm doing chores/not directly supervising him. He is only ever destructive when I'm gone.

So if I wanted to correct him, I'd have to purposely set him up for failure by enticing him to chew something he wasn't supposed to, and then correct him for that. Which is not something I'm willing to do, especially because I don't think it would fix the problem.