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Tried to bite me/and Vet

PrimaCC

Member
My CC is 15 weeks now but about two weeks ago I was lifting him up to take him off my bed and he growled and tried to bite me, not playing, completely serious for about a 2 or 3 mins. I didn't let up because its MY bed. He didn't actually bite me though. Then yesterday I took him to the vet for his last shots, but for the one for his nose (flu) and the vet grabbed him by the muzzle and my baby tried to bite him. The vet jumped back say "wow".
He is in obedience training, but we were wondering if this is something that could pose a problem? He is great around our children and is gentle with our youngest. Outside of these two instances we have no aggression problems. So my question is was he just testing the waters with me?(1) and what could have been the problem with the vet?
He is socialized we attend puppy socials, (which is another question I have) classes, and all.
speaking of puppy social he doesn't seem interested in playing with the other dogs. he just sniffs the entire room, lol. We have a mini schnauzer that he plays with ALL day. But is it normal for him not to be interested in playing with other pups?

so 3 questions sorry
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
Definitely has to be nipped in the bud. I don't think anyone could possibly have an answer for those questions as it could be from different reasons. At 4 months not so bad, if he did that at 10 months it would be much worse. So the good news is you can work on it. My DDB was a biter when young, I got into the car once and he didn't know it was me and attacked until he realized it was me, another time was coming into the bathroom where he was sleeping when a puppy and using my cell phone flashlight, he attacked not knowing it was me again. I just kept working with him and later on he realized that the biting thing was a no go in the house.

Don't treat the dog as a human, always be working with him, never reward bad behavior. Everything he does is a job, don't give all the kisses this was tough for my wife as the puppy was so cute, but she realized the dog is far too wild and we need to gain full control before any of the loving kisses come through. So now whatever we do with the dog in the house is some type of work for her otherwise all hell breaks loose. Oh there is a time for petting her, but even too much petting gets her roweled up and intensifies into rough excitement.

I know this is tough, but no bed for the dog. Especially now that the rules have been broken, I would not allow him up into the bed as soon they will own the bed and the people in it. They say a Tibetan Mastiff will own the entire neighborhood if left in the yard all day.

It could just be testing, but this is a serious time right now to stop the testing. Someone else will hopefully give you advice on the vet thing. I just think the dog is fighting authority and rules need to be firm and serious and everyone in the family must understand the rules so this way there is no cheating while your not there. Next time at the vet he will use a muzzle is all but really you need to correct the issue and fast.

Perhaps a different obedience class or a private lesson or 2 from a trainer that works with serious working dogs. What kind of collar do you use? Somethings that are going on now has to change and a qualified individual needs to help you make those changes, especially in a house with kids.
 

PrimaCC

Member
Definitely has to be nipped in the bud. I don't think anyone could possibly have an answer for those questions as it could be from different reasons. At 4 months not so bad, if he did that at 10 months it would be much worse. So the good news is you can work on it. My DDB was a biter when young, I got into the car once and he didn't know it was me and attacked until he realized it was me, another time was coming into the bathroom where he was sleeping when a puppy and using my cell phone flashlight, he attacked not knowing it was me again. I just kept working with him and later on he realized that the biting thing was a no go in the house.

Don't treat the dog as a human, always be working with him, never reward bad behavior. Everything he does is a job, don't give all the kisses this was tough for my wife as the puppy was so cute, but she realized the dog is far too wild and we need to gain full control before any of the loving kisses come through. So now whatever we do with the dog in the house is some type of work for her otherwise all hell breaks loose. Oh there is a time for petting her, but even too much petting gets her roweled up and intensifies into rough excitement.

I know this is tough, but no bed for the dog. Especially now that the rules have been broken, I would not allow him up into the bed as soon they will own the bed and the people in it. They say a Tibetan Mastiff will own the entire neighborhood if left in the yard all day.

It could just be testing, but this is a serious time right now to stop the testing. Someone else will hopefully give you advice on the vet thing. I just think the dog is fighting authority and rules need to be firm and serious and everyone in the family must understand the rules so this way there is no cheating while your not there. Next time at the vet he will use a muzzle is all but really you need to correct the issue and fast.

Perhaps a different obedience class or a private lesson or 2 from a trainer that works with serious working dogs. What kind of collar do you use? Somethings that are going on now has to change and a qualified individual needs to help you make those changes, especially in a house with kids.


Thank you so much Steven for the advice! I will definitely look for some private training with someone who specializes in Large working breeds. Im on ASAP!!!
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
Use a muzzle when you take him to the vet. He will need to be accustomed to a muzzle anyway. Do not let him on your bed. He is showing some signs of either he doesn't like to be picked up/handled/ controlled or resource guarding. He can definitely use work on getting accustomed to body handling (nails, ears, eyes, mouth). Start now! Get some structure in asap. Limit his freedom. Be more strict. Start establishing rules and boundaries. Biting at the vets is normal since the vet grabbed him by the muzzle. Use a muzzle and slip leash and YOU handle your dog at the vet. He's only 15 weeks, this is no way his mature personality. You will see a big change around 18 months. If you don't get some behavioral training help now, you will have a lot of trouble when he matures.
 

BlackShadowCaneCorso

Super Moderator
Staff member
Welcome to the wonderful world of owning a shit-head corso. While there can be cases of corso who just aren't wired right I don't think it is the case with your pup, I think it is a case of being too big for his britches and others have given good information on how to start to tackle that issue. With a working breed that is bred to think for itself, button pushing can come as a second nature to some and it can be worse with some puppies.
 

PrimaCC

Member
Use a muzzle when you take him to the vet. He will need to be accustomed to a muzzle anyway. Do not let him on your bed. He is showing some signs of either he doesn't like to be picked up/handled/ controlled or resource guarding. He can definitely use work on getting accustomed to body handling (nails, ears, eyes, mouth). Start now! Get some structure in asap. Limit his freedom. Be more strict. Start establishing rules and boundaries. Biting at the vets is normal since the vet grabbed him by the muzzle. Use a muzzle and slip leash and YOU handle your dog at the vet. He's only 15 weeks, this is no way his mature personality. You will see a big change around 18 months. If you don't get some behavioral training help now, you will have a lot of trouble when he matures.

Hector he is very comfortable with being. touched since then I've picked him up multiple times and he's been perfectly fine with it. we all take turns handling him such as paws, ears, tail, mouth. But the Vet was scary to me. We also do set boundaries and I no longer let him sleep on my bed. He's not allowed in the kitchen on furniture and he does very well respecting that. so thats why I was shocked. but I will definitely get him a muzzle to start getting used to thanks for the suggestion I never thought of it before.
 

PrimaCC

Member
Welcome to the wonderful world of owning a shit-head corso. While there can be cases of corso who just aren't wired right I don't think it is the case with your pup, I think it is a case of being too big for his britches and others have given good information on how to start to tackle that issue. With a working breed that is bred to think for itself, button pushing can come as a second nature to some and it can be worse with some puppies.
Thank you!! Im glad I can take a bit of a breather, and glad I found this forum.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
In addition to the other suggestions, I would start working on making all handling positive. Have really high value treats and manipulate his body, feel his abdomen, check ears, look at teeth, touch and apply pressure to toes, etc. Go slow and treat heavily. I also like to work on restraint and reward that heavily. It makes your vet and vet tech's job much easier.

Don't punish a growl, even though it's instinct to do so. Dogs only have a few ways to tell you that they're uncomfortable with what's happening and a growl is one of them. If you punish the growl the dog will most likely go directly to a bite at some point and you won't have any warning. Nor will your vet or vet tech. If you do get a growl, go slower and reward successes heavily.

Have you considered a fear free or low stress handling clinic? I shared links in a separate post to a list of clinics and vets/techs. Most are in the US. A certified Fear Free or certified low stress handling vet/tech/clinic uses minimal restraint and is trained to make a vet visit as pleasant and stress free as possible. More vets and clinics are getting certified all the time. It makes for a nice experience for both owner and pet.

Lastly, I think all dogs should be muzzle trained. Not the fabric muzzles, but a basket muzzle. You can get a Baskerville at any local pet store. It's important to condition the dog to the muzzle and that can take some time. Here are a couple of links to videos for muzzle training. I like Kikopup for a lot of things and would use her techniques without hesitation.

 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Haha, I see that I missed your last post where you said you were doing the handling exercises. Sorry about that!
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
"Welcome to the wonderful world of owning a shit-head corso." LOL!!!

My thoughts:

Q1: My first thought was that you hurt him when you picked him up off the bed.... easy to do... poke a finger in the wrong spot or tweak a limb... not unheard of...
A puppy reacting with a bite in that scenario could just be trying to communicate with you, "STOP"... but they do need to learn that teeth on skin is NEVER ok (at least not in our house it's not). I'd yelp and then give them the command to get off the bed instead of trying to use physical force. So he knows first that the bite was a BAD thing, and two, that he STILL has to do what YOU want him to do... the bite does not END the discussion, nor does it sway your opinion of what he WILL be doing. Bites do not NOT win an argument with a human, ever. In fact... they tend to LOSE them around here.

Some options -
(1) As noted above, remove his access to the bed until he earns it by being a good puppy.
(2) Teach him "UP" (or your preferred command for "get on the bed") and "OFF" (or similar, for "get off the bed")... use rewards for both UP and OFF, repeat this 10-20 times in a row (which is good exercise for the puppy, too!)... until "OFF" is an automatic muscle response to get off the bed... then you can Test him... let him up on the bed, play with his feet, his ears, his belly... act like you MIGHT push him off the bed, and if he resists... command him OFF. Enforce him getting off... tell him "good off" when he's on the floor... invite him back up and repeat the test until he can "pass" without resistance. I call it "play with a purpose"... It's all a game until the human gives a Command... and as long as the puppy does the command as requested, play can resume.


Q2: At the vet... that could easily have been the vet missing the puppy's signals to "please slow down, I'm nervous"... grabbing a muzzle is never something a dog likes a stranger to do, so HOW the vet went about it would really be a determining factor. If the puppy remembered getting the nose juice shot from a previous visit (I imagine that's a memorable event), that wouldn't help the situation, either. But, again... teeth on skin is still a big No-No, especially at that age. So more training and prevention for the next vet visit is warranted.

We were still fighting the desire to use teeth and mouth on humans at 4 months... Denna didn't give up mouthing on people until she was 8-10 months old (her's was mostly in play-mode, though). SO... this isn't necessarily a view into where your puppy is headed, it's just that your puppy has not learned to "use his words" yet, and is still grabbing things to get his point across.

Next vet visit - either have him muzzle ready (mainly so the vet can relax around him) - or take a plush toy that you can stuff in his mouth if you see him opening it to grab anything or anyone with his mouth/teeth. Try and ask for a different vet, or let the vet know you've been working on the issue, and ask him to work with the puppy more before going into the full exam, or at least go slower... maybe someone else has some other recommendations... Denna is also nervous around our vets (we see 3 different ones in the same practice), so I obviously haven't gotten this one figured out, either. Some vets (including one we don't see anymore) are just afraid of big dogs and/or bully breeds... so make a note and avoid those if that's the issue. No need to add their preconceptions to the party, they certainly won't help the issue.


Q3: Puppy social... 15 weeks seems early for him to stop being interested in puppy play... but maybe he's "done" with strange dogs. It can happen. I'd still take him, so he has as much time around other puppies his own age as you can give him. He can at least have more time to learn not to be fearful or aggressive around strange puppies/dogs.

During the social are you allowed to play/interact with the puppies? During some of Denna's puppy play groups - especially if there were only 3 or 4 puppies there - the trainer would get out a tug toy, ball or a fetch toy, to get the puppies all moving and interacting together... it did offer a potential point of conflict, but that was part of the lesson plan - get the puppies to learn how to peacefully resolve conflict with other dogs and/or get them to know when/how to just walk away if they didn't like the energy (versus attacking the "bad" energy). If your socials are led by GOOD trainers, that could work... if they're just puppy-free-for-alls... probably not a good idea to instigate conflicts... so maybe just work your puppy on obedience drills around the other puppies, so he knows he needs to listen in that kind of distracting environment, too.

Keep at it!

If the puppy isn't interested in socializing with other puppies or dogs... keep up socialization by introducing the puppy to new things, noises, location, surfaces (bark, rock, bridges, etc.), and other "stuff".... umbrellas are a good one - closed and open... and the process of opening them, too!
 

PrimaCC

Member
Thank you all so much Kahn has done very well in Obedience training and we have gotten into a IPO club. The Helper is magnificent and so are the club members. He tested Kahn and said don't worry about the incidents to much , but that training and consistency will correct and guide his behaviors. We started on Sunday we went today, He has shown so much progress in such short time. I now hand feed him and he is shows he is very patient. We are doing lots of positive re enforcement but also implement negative consequences when necessary. Boxgirl you totally ROCK!!!! zi have been taking him out everywhere I go except work, and he has been enjoying different people smells and even noises ahaha he gets a kick out of the vacuum cleaner...