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A Very Controversial Topic....

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Marke, btw, did give alternative training suggestions. Which, even if I don't always agree with him, is appreciated.
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
what is your thought on an electric fences as far as keeping a dog safe ?
Nope, for a few reasons. First is the electric shock. Second they are not as secure as a real fence. While a determined dog can get out of either a physical barrier is more of a deterrent. Adrenaline can override a shock stimulus allowing an animal to get passed an electronic barrier but once that adrenaline fades they can't get back in. Unless there was an object used to get over a fence they can usually get back over the other way. Thirdly I don't like the idea of leaving dogs outside unattended in an urban environment, someone should be watching/interacting with them.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
 
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Bailey's Mom

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
They are so adorable!

Ira refringit domum. Sapientis consilio tenebris et integrum servat honorem. This is fun. And rusty isn't the word to describe it.
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
@Boxergirl

Ok, let me get this straight.....

@Hiraeth, asked, because she doesn't want to know. She asked because she doesn't need advice. She asked, because she doesn't need me to tell her.....

Yet she's the one with a dog who is eating her house, and she doesn't seem to know how to stop him from doing it.

Oh ye gods have mercy and give me patience.


@marke, gave her advice, gave her answers (which she doesn't want or need), but she doesn't want to try anything different, because she wants to do it her way, and her way alone, because her way is the right way, and no one else knows what they're talking about.

ONLY ONE PROBLEM WITH THAT, HER WAY IS OBVIOUSLY NOT WORKING!!!!!! THE DOGGY STILL NEEDS TO BE CRATED ALL DAY, BECAUSE HE EATS HER HOUSE!!!!!

Nothing I say or don't say, is going to make a difference one way or the other.

Let's just consider this hypothetical scenerio for a moment.....

There are approximately 261 working days in a given year ( not calculating holidays, etc.) So let's say, that your dog is crated only 8 hours per day.
261 × 8 = 2,088 hours per year, which works out to 87 days (24 hour periods) out of the year spent in a crate.

If you take that a step further, and consider an average life span for a giant breed dog. Let's just say 10 years more or less.

If your dog lives to be 10 years old, it would translate into 2,088 × 10 = 2,0880 hours, which translates into 2.384 years spent in a crate.

Which, correct me if I'm wrong (I was never good at math, lol), is close to 24% of this dog's life, spent in a crate.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject of crating, end of story.

Terminatum est......

Pax

He's not eating my house. Because he's crated. He's safe. My things are safe. We're working on training one issue at a time. Destructive chewing is a behavioral issue that cannot be fixed by training because *he doesn't do it when I'm there*. If you can't understand that, then I have nothing else to say to you. In fact... I don't really have much else to say to you anyways. You're rude, either purposefully or non-purposefully obtuse, and nothing you have said on this entire thread has been constructive. All it seems that you want to do is argue. Which is fine - you can keep arguing. With yourself. Because at this point, I laugh when I read your responses.

I'm actually pretty sure an intent to argue is why you started this thread in the first place.

But since you have nothing else to say on the subject of crating, why don't you go respond to people elsewhere, and those of us who have constructive and thoughtful things to say will stay here and continue chatting about how we can keep our dogs safe while also providing the highest quality of life possible.
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
Oh, and for the record, my MFA is in Classical Literature. I can read Latin.

If you want to say disparaging things about people, might I suggest you do so via PM instead of communicating in a different language on the forum itself? The only thing being openly rude in another language does is make you look like a total jerk.
 

Elana P

Well-Known Member
Oh, and for the record, my MFA is in Classical Literature. I can read Latin.

If you want to say disparaging things about people, might I suggest you do so via PM instead of communicating in a different language on the forum itself? The only thing being openly rude in another language does is make you look like a total jerk.


Have a wonderful day :)
 

CeeCee

Well-Known Member
Cage....crate.....box...... just arguing symantics???
Calling my voicing other people's opinions "ugly and judgmental", and calling me "biased", is not judgmental at all, is it..... o_O

Was my description of many a dog's life "dramatic"?
If you mean dramatic in the sense that it's sad, then yes, it is sad....

Just a random question to whomever:
How many hours per a 24 hour period are your dogs in a "crate", with the door locked?

Words connote feelings and speak to perceptions. Whether you see containment as a crate or a cage speaks to the humans mindset.

I think the trouble started with the blanket statements of the original post. Each dog is an individual and each have their own needs. What works for one dog might not work for another. The goal is success and safety for each individual family.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
Nope, for a few reasons. First is the electric shock. Second they are not as secure as a real fence. While a determined dog can get out of either a physical barrier is more of a deterrent. Adrenaline can override a shock stimulus allowing an animal to get passed an electronic barrier but once that adrenaline fades they can't get back in. Unless there was an object used to get over a fence they can usually get back over the other way. Thirdly I don't like the idea of leaving dogs outside unattended in an urban environment, someone should be watching/interacting with them.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

I’ve personally known many dogs taught to stay within boundaries with an electric fence , and they are/were completely psychologically unharmed and most lived their entire lives without breaching them…invisible dog fences have been around for at least 40yrs and they’re still being sold because they work …. All of the dogs I’ve known trained with an invisible fence were better adjusted dogs than some of the positive only trained dogs I read about on these message boards on a regular basis , I’ve not known one that was a nerve bag ……the stimulation a dog/puppy gets exploring the outdoors on it’s own I’m convinced is a positive for it’s psyche and confidence … I personally feel sorry for a dog that doesn’t have the opportunity to be outside on their own , but that’s just me ………. Most people have gotten shocked in their lives , but I would guess very few become traumatized enough to not be able to plug something in , change a light bulb , or turn on a lamp ………….a normal person just learns not to stick their fingers in a light socket or plug ………
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
I’ve personally known many dogs taught to stay within boundaries with an electric fence , and they are/were completely psychologically unharmed and most lived their entire lives without breaching them…invisible dog fences have been around for at least 40yrs and they’re still being sold because they work …. All of the dogs I’ve known trained with an invisible fence were better adjusted dogs than some of the positive only trained dogs I read about on these message boards on a regular basis , I’ve not known one that was a nerve bag ……the stimulation a dog/puppy gets exploring the outdoors on it’s own I’m convinced is a positive for it’s psyche and confidence … I personally feel sorry for a dog that doesn’t have the opportunity to be outside on their own , but that’s just me ………. Most people have gotten shocked in their lives , but I would guess very few become traumatized enough to not be able to plug something in , change a light bulb , or turn on a lamp ………….a normal person just learns not to stick their fingers in a light socket or plug ………

I think, as with most other things, an invisible fence entirely depends on the dog's temperament, and therefore an owner's ability to gauge how a random shock may be perceived by their dog.

I know someone who used one on a GSD, whose dog then refused to go outside of the house for a week, and is still nervous/anxious when she is in the yard because of that one experience. Soft dog, anxious temperament, bad idea to use a tool like that on that particular dog.

Other dogs, sure, they work fine. I do know some particular dogs with high prey drive who have blown right through an invisible fence, and then of course, wouldn't come back.

My concerns with leaving my dogs outside aren't that they will wander - they won't. Titan actually learned how to open my back door recently and decided to let both he and Zephyr, as well as my dad's dogs I was watching, Little Dog and Shenzi (a Rott and a GSD mix), into the yard. No fence. They all just wandered around and sniffed stuff until I realized that things were suddenly very quiet and found out they were outside. They immediately ran to me and wanted to interact with me instead of continuing to sniff around.

It's that other dogs may enter my yard and start a fight, another random animal may wander into my yard and start a fight, someone could steal my dogs, someone could accuse my dogs of misbehaving (check this recent story out: http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/09/health/dog-dna-death-penalty-eprise/) etc., that would stop me from using an electric fence.
 

Bailey's Mom

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
Oh, and for the record, my MFA is in Classical Literature. I can read Latin.

If you want to say disparaging things about people, might I suggest you do so via PM instead of communicating in a different language on the forum itself? The only thing being openly rude in another language does is make you look like a total jerk.

Personally, I didn't say anything "disparaging." Elana ended her talking to you with, "It's terminated" the discussion...and..."Peace." As far as I was concerned, the angry portion of the discussion was over. After that we were just playing. It was cool to see someone using Latin. So, I started off saying "badly" "'Put the dog to bed. Peace to everyone." I was probably trying for let sleeping dogs lie...but I didn't take Latin at university, I took it at high school...and what we used in court...Latin maxims. Elana could have taken umbrage with me for chiding her in Latin "Anger breaks the house." And "hold your own counsel and keep your own honour." BUT SHE DIDN'T.

Tempers had cooled and we were just having fun. This whole thread has been so inflammatory. People love their dogs...I get it, and each dog is different, I get it, but this thing was off the rails. Elana cooled off saying something about, "To err is human but a fool persists." Okay, still her perspective. I said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." Again, this points out that there are two views, yours and hers, it's not "disparaging"...it's 7 pages of fact. I then wished her "Bonum nocte" Good Night. And, "Dulce somnii", Sweet Dreams. It was hardly offering you insult...you'd have to bend over and twist it a lot to get to a personal insult. You are just two people with differing views and differing needs....i.e., Different types of Dogs.

Now, my translation may not be 100 per cent accurate, but before anyone goes off thinking that this was a hatchet job on Hireth, open Google Translator and see for yourself. Or as they used to say in Court here:
"Res ipsa loquitur", "The thing speaks for itself."

What fascinates me more is that you two have something in common! LATIN! Not exactly something you find in any corner store. Celebrate what you share. Respect each other's opinions and...who knows...make friends.

Myself, I'm withdrawing...more a lover than a fighter. Another glass of wine awaits me.
In Vino Veritas! Hey, it's five o'clock somewhere.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
I think, as with most other things, an invisible fence entirely depends on the dog's temperament, and therefore an owner's ability to gauge how a random shock may be perceived by their dog.

I know someone who used one on a GSD, whose dog then refused to go outside of the house for a week, and is still nervous/anxious when she is in the yard because of that one experience. Soft dog, anxious temperament, bad idea to use a tool like that on that particular dog.

Other dogs, sure, they work fine. I do know some particular dogs with high prey drive who have blown right through an invisible fence, and then of course, wouldn't come back.

My concerns with leaving my dogs outside aren't that they will wander - they won't. Titan actually learned how to open my back door recently and decided to let both he and Zephyr, as well as my dad's dogs I was watching, Little Dog and Shenzi (a Rott and a GSD mix), into the yard. No fence. They all just wandered around and sniffed stuff until I realized that things were suddenly very quiet and found out they were outside. They immediately ran to me and wanted to interact with me instead of continuing to sniff around.

It's that other dogs may enter my yard and start a fight, another random animal may wander into my yard and start a fight, someone could steal my dogs, someone could accuse my dogs of misbehaving (check this recent story out: http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/09/health/dog-dna-death-penalty-eprise/) etc., that would stop me from using an electric fence.
your kidding right ?????? I know 3 people use invisible fence , 2 of them are just normal dog owners , they didn't even have a problem with it ..... perhaps the someone you knew ;) should have read the instructions , when I read crap like that , it reinforces my thought on the average dog owner , and why my dogs are lucky they got me ................. the 3rd invisible fence user I know are dog folks , from my perspective to question their methods , forget about it , it'd just make you look ignorant .............. dogs aren't that different , the folks that own them are .........imo , animals ,dogs included , are not meant to spend most of their lives indoors ...I feel sorry for those who do ...... as far as the owner taking them out , no one could possibly stay outside as long as my dogs choose too , in the weather they choose too , unless you live in a tent ..............

DSCF2812.jpg
 

marke

Well-Known Member
I forgot to add , a shock from an invisible fence isn't random , perhaps that's your friends problem?
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
your kidding right ?????? I know 3 people use invisible fence , 2 of them are just normal dog owners , they didn't even have a problem with it ..... perhaps the someone you knew ;) should have read the instructions , when I read crap like that , it reinforces my thought on the average dog owner , and why my dogs are lucky they got me ................. the 3rd invisible fence user I know are dog folks , from my perspective to question their methods , forget about it , it'd just make you look ignorant .............. dogs aren't that different , the folks that own them are .........imo , animals ,dogs included , are not meant to spend most of their lives indoors ...I feel sorry for those who do ...... as far as the owner taking them out , no one could possibly stay outside as long as my dogs choose too , in the weather they choose too , unless you live in a tent ..............

That's the thing. The girl who used the electric fence IS a very average dog owner. With an unfortunately soft dog. And she is just like 95% of the people who come to this forum for advice. Average. Amateur. Novice. Whatever you want to call it. Which isn't meant as an insult. It means that they don't spend a lot of time working with dogs other than their own, they haven't researched training theory, they don't know what the four quadrants of operant conditioning are, etc. Most people here looking for help don't have your decades of experience, or your knowledge of your own dogs' temperaments. If this girl DID have that, she would have realized that shocking her particular dog in the back yard was a *really* bad idea.

I think that's sometimes the disconnect between you and I. I work with average dog owners quite often. My friends, my family, the thousands of people I've given advice to online. And, since Latin seems to be in fashion here today, my motto is primum non nocere. First do no harm. And people CAN do harm with an electric fence, pretty easily, if they misuse it. To be fair, people can do harm with a flat collar and a 6' leash, but that's harder to accomplish and would take some effort. I avoid recommending methods to internet strangers that can be *easily* used to harm a dog. Those methods are best left for recommendation by a professional who can then oversee the use of the tool and make sure that it's implemented in an appropriate and correct manner that is least likely to traumatize the dog.

Your advice would frequently be fine, and taken well, by people who *know a lot* about dogs. But that's not who the audience is on many threads on this forum (or on the internet in general).
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
Elana cooled off saying something about, "To err is human but a fool persists." Okay, still her perspective. I said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." Again, this points out that there are two views, yours and hers, it's not "disparaging"...it's 7 pages of fact. I then wished her "Bonum nocte" Good Night. And, "Dulce somnii", Sweet Dreams. It was hardly offering you insult...you'd have to bend over and twist it a lot to get to a personal insult. You are just two people with differing views and differing needs....i.e., Different types of Dogs.

Now, my translation may not be 100 per cent accurate, but before anyone goes off thinking that this was a hatchet job on Hireth, open Google Translator and see for yourself. Or as they used to say in Court here:
"Res ipsa loquitur", "The thing speaks for itself."

Really, a response was unnecessary. I know what was said. So do other people, as I'm sure they used a translator. Referring to someone as a 'fool', or as a 'horse who won't drink the water', is insulting.

Anyways. Jacta est. Or, 'it is thrown', in reference to dice, or 'what's done is done', in reference to actions. For anyone who came here for a lesson in ancient languages instead of a discussion about dogs.
 

Elana P

Well-Known Member
your kidding right ?????? I know 3 people use invisible fence , 2 of them are just normal dog owners , they didn't even have a problem with it ..... perhaps the someone you knew ;) should have read the instructions , when I read crap like that , it reinforces my thought on the average dog owner , and why my dogs are lucky they got me ................. the 3rd invisible fence user I know are dog folks , from my perspective to question their methods , forget about it , it'd just make you look ignorant .............. dogs aren't that different , the folks that own them are .........imo , animals ,dogs included , are not meant to spend most of their lives indoors ...I feel sorry for those who do ...... as far as the owner taking them out , no one could possibly stay outside as long as my dogs choose too , in the weather they choose too , unless you live in a tent ..............

DSCF2812.jpg


@marke

My guys love to go outside and spend lot's of time in our fenced back yard (chain link, with tall hedges that grow on the inside, to prevent crazy leaps over the fence, lol).

Whenever the weather allows, I keep the back door slightly open. There is a cloth bag, hanging on the inside handle, so if anyone wants to go outside, they pull the bag and open the door. Regretably, I haven't been able to explain to them that they need to close the door when the come in (but that's coming :)).

They don't just go out to do their business, they go out to investigate, sniff, and exchange pee-mails with Kilo the neighbor's dog, along with some neighbourhood gossip and insult hurling across the fence. They take toys out, bring toys in, bury a bone once in a while, chase each other, zoom around, play....

Katy, my little one, loves to sun herself until her brain is half baked. Danny, my old boy, loves to roll in the snow. And Charlie, well Charlie just loves to run around and annoy the heck out of everyone, untill he gets told off in no uncertain doggy words and actions.

They just love to be dogs.
 

Elana P

Well-Known Member
Personally, I didn't say anything "disparaging." Elana ended her talking to you with, "It's terminated" the discussion...and..."Peace." As far as I was concerned, the angry portion of the discussion was over. After that we were just playing. It was cool to see someone using Latin. So, I started off saying "badly" "'Put the dog to bed. Peace to everyone." I was probably trying for let sleeping dogs lie...but I didn't take Latin at university, I took it at high school...and what we used in court...Latin maxims. Elana could have taken umbrage with me for chiding her in Latin "Anger breaks the house." And "hold your own counsel and keep your own honour." BUT SHE DIDN'T.

Tempers had cooled and we were just having fun. This whole thread has been so inflammatory. People love their dogs...I get it, and each dog is different, I get it, but this thing was off the rails. Elana cooled off saying something about, "To err is human but a fool persists." Okay, still her perspective. I said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." Again, this points out that there are two views, yours and hers, it's not "disparaging"...it's 7 pages of fact. I then wished her "Bonum nocte" Good Night. And, "Dulce somnii", Sweet Dreams. It was hardly offering you insult...you'd have to bend over and twist it a lot to get to a personal insult. You are just two people with differing views and differing needs....i.e., Different types of Dogs.

Now, my translation may not be 100 per cent accurate, but before anyone goes off thinking that this was a hatchet job on Hireth, open Google Translator and see for yourself. Or as they used to say in Court here:
"Res ipsa loquitur", "The thing speaks for itself."

What fascinates me more is that you two have something in common! LATIN! Not exactly something you find in any corner store. Celebrate what you share. Respect each other's opinions and...who knows...make friends.

Myself, I'm withdrawing...more a lover than a fighter. Another glass of wine awaits me.
In Vino Veritas! Hey, it's five o'clock somewhere.