Banning of training tools petition

Discussion in 'Cane Corso' started by Steven C, May 21, 2019.

  1. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

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  2. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    E-collars were already banned in many countries in Europe. The problem is that banning them actually creates more abusive behavior in some instances. For many sport and working handlers in Europe, they have had to resort to other methods of controlling their higher drive dogs, which has led to an increase in brutal uses of kicking/hitting. It’s actually very sad. Luckily, I think there are still many people in the US that see the value of these tools even outside the working world, including many that are in non-working rescue organizations.

    There are also far more euthanizations of higher drive dogs due to not being able to control them. These tools are needed, it will be a huge injustice to remove them.
     
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  3. Boxergirl

    Boxergirl Well-Known Member

    While I do think all training tools have their place, I also believe that prong collars and e-collars are far too often purchased by people looking for a quick fix and without the benefit of a qualified trainer to teach them how to properly use these tools. That can also be said for a head harness. I do NOT believe that these tools should be available for just anyone to use. I also believe that these tools should be used with the goal of training the behaviors you want so that they are eventually not needed. FWIW, I have used all of these tools for various dogs so I'm not just blindly saying they're bad.
     
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  4. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    You should definitely sign the petition if that's how you feel. It would be wreckless to ban these tools. This is not communist USA yet anyway. We should have the freedom to use these tools and save countless dogs lives while training extremely strong and difficult dogs in a humane fashion rather the beatings they get in banned countries.
     
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  5. glen

    glen Super Moderator Staff Member

    If anyone tried to put an e collar or prong collar on my dogs i wouldnt give my boys chance to bite them id bite them myself.
    This is just my opinion, and yes i do own a very high prey drive dog, i also own an aggressive dog,and when i say aggressive i mean a dog that im in no doubt would attack especially an intruder on my property, hes dog agressive with dogs he doesnt know, i have 3 dogs that bark, they alert if someones around or a noise, i can silence them with a verbal command, i can get them to freeze on the spot, they return to my side with a command. They walk by my side on a leash without any strain,
    This is because on day 1 of getting my pup the training begins, i dont give up, i dont get bored, i look at the cute 8 week old pup and think what will i allow when hes 60kg,
    Im also not against them being used in the right situation, but i do think people should be trained how to use them .
     
  6. Boxergirl

    Boxergirl Well-Known Member

    No. I won't sign the petition. While I have used these tools in the past, I no longer do or will. I do NOT think they should be available to just anyone going to a store looking for a quick fix. Not that you, Steven, use these tools as that, but I do believe that most people do. Far too much damage can be done with these tools in the hands of uninformed and untrained individuals.
     
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  7. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member


    Good luck ever trying to do PSA or IPO or have a dog with real drive that you got after it was a puppy. You would have to put the dog down. These tools are needed in the world of Dutchies, Malinios and other breeds including some Corso and Presa that need structure. Don't make me laugh to much seeing how you would control an adult Corso with real drives after it was given up because the family had no way to control the powerful breed. Please don't tell me you would clicker train the dog or yell at it. lol

    Anyways thank goodness we got enough signatures to stop this nightmare commy legislation. I was actually wondering how I would train my KNVP without a prong or ecollar, holy crap. I use a prong to this day in public with my Corso because she is a threshold queen.
     
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  8. Boxergirl

    Boxergirl Well-Known Member

    Perhaps if one can't control the breed they have chosen without these tools, they shouldn't have that breed. I will never believe that these tools are mandatory for owning certain breeds. Never. A blanket statement that certain breeds MUST use these tools indicates a lack of understanding and experience by the handler in other types of training. Structure and respect can be had and earned without the use of aversives. Keeping in mind that aversive is very individual. Again - I'm not blindly against the use of a prong. (E-collars I have a different opinion about and think are very dangerous in untrained hands.) Used properly a prong can be an excellent communication tool. Most people do not use them properly. Most people use them out of frustration, anger, and for punishment.
     
  9. glen

    glen Super Moderator Staff Member

    Just let me inform you of one thing steven, i actually have had to take over ccs that are out of control because of owners that have got this breed, high drive, aggressive, what the hell do you think i own, iv always in near 7 years of being on this forum been polite, iv spoke and learnt a lot from the good prople on here.
    I hold back if people are being rude, but iv got to say this,
    If you cant train a cc without a prong collar or e collar you shouldnt have one, please come to my home and see my lap dogs, and how they jump up and lick your face, see how lethargic and dosile they are, see how untrained they are. By the way im taking the piss. Thought id better point that out.
    THEN JUDGE ME ON WHAT I CAN DO.
    whats up dont you like it that iv got 3 ccs that have high drive and iv trained them to be in control without having to use e collars and you can control and train one.
     
  10. Boxergirl

    Boxergirl Well-Known Member

    I'm curious. Why is this being opposed in the petition? What's wrong with this?

    "S13.1 An electronic collar must only be used on a dog in accordance with the
    generally accepted method of use. For the purposes of these Standards, the
    generally accepted method of use includes:
    (a) if a reasonable and documented effort has been made to use other
    training techniques to modify behaviour and these have not been
    effective;
    (b) a veterinarian has examined the health and temperament of the dog
    and reasonably believes that the dog is suitable to wear an electronic collar;"
     
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  11. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    LOL, that's good. Its fun getting you all fired up and bringing some life out of the mastiff forum.

    @Boxergirl why not that? Because its simply adding steps to create a communist lifestyle just as they accept in many parts of Europe, South America. For example in the US it currently takes no more than 20 minutes to create a corporation. In these progressive liberal countries you need a team of 4 and about 2 to 3 days to create one. The result, people operate without them, way too chaotic to even bother. Or another result is they decide not to go in business and play dominos on the side of the street with friends. Then the commy countries can fine the crap out of those operating without them.

    Its all a scam to rob more money from the innocent civilians, just like licensing of dogs and ASPCA euthanization of dogs creates a pathway of dollars for the corrupt. I don't need Bloomberg telling me I cant have a large coke. I don't need China telling me my social credit will go bad if I don't pay for a license for my dog.

    Do you really think the person who created this garbage bill did it for the safety of dogs?
     
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  12. glen

    glen Super Moderator Staff Member

    What i find extremely sad is that owners thing you can only train these breeds with tools when its actually the owners that havent got a clue, these owners need to own a yorkshire terrier or pug, at least they can go buy lots of cute fluffy outfits and designer bags to carry them around, and when they still cant train them there easily picked up so the owner feels in control.

    But then they want the image of owning a big nasty looking dog, but havent got a clue how to look after them, its them that is adding to these beautiful breeds being euthanised, so its not the collars ect that should be banned its the owners.
     
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  13. BlackShadowCaneCorso

    BlackShadowCaneCorso Super Moderator Staff Member

    I think it is a personal choice, I have ones I have used training tools like this on and others I haven't. I don't fault what people use if it gives the desired results consistently. I don't think anyone needs to sign something they aren't in support of but I also think when you start ignoring little rights being taken away it is a slippery slope before they are dictating what types of animals we can own, or if we can own animals at all. The US is already facing some life altering changes for women's rights that is sliding our gender back in time, and all it took were people that were compliant with allowing any rights to be removed. It is a choice, sign it or don't. But before long they will be coming for something all of us care about and when those that turned a blind eye before are the ones that are then asking for support I am sure those that asked for it before will be the ones to turn a blind eye. I am pro choice, I am not willing to give up any rights as a human being.
     
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  14. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    I don't believe i've owned a collar of any type since maybe 1992 ….. I know , I've not had any drivey dogs , lol ……….. personally I just think I got good at distracting/redirecting dogs

    I maybe mistaken , but I believe this is an issue in Australia ??????

    I believe they already have a number of breeds not allowed to be owned in that country …….
    • Dogo Argentino (Argentinean mastiff)
    • Fila Brasileiro (Brazilian mastiff)
    • Japanese Tosa
    • American Pit Bull Terrier and Pit Bull Terrier breeds
    • Perro de Presa Canario or Presa Canario
    • and any dog of a mixed breed that visibly contains any of these breeds.

    it'd be nice if everything could be left to folks common sense , problem is common sense is becoming far less common , hopefully it does not become extinct , it actually looks headed that way to me………...
     
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  15. BlackShadowCaneCorso

    BlackShadowCaneCorso Super Moderator Staff Member

    I have about 50 show chains of various sizes/types, several flats, martingales, prongs and whale tale chokers. That being said, when the dogs are on our property they aren't wearing anything as I am paranoid about them wrestling and collars being a problem. However, laws here require if your dog is off your property they must be on a leash/restraint of some sort. Ontario has a ban here on Pitbulls and the city of Montreal has it on anything that might be "pitbull like" but so far that is as far as it has gone. Although we are facing the docking/cropping issues, and out west I believe they banning of training issues. I believe the thought is dogs should not have to do anything if they don't want to, but would have to find the actual document that gives complete details as I am paraphrasing.

    I would love if common sense was what as a society we could depend on but it seems were are falling down the rabbit hole and there is no bottom is sight, and our breeds will pay the price for this.
     
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  16. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    Very interesting you mentioned that. My wife actually said this will be the end of dog ownership at all and I agree. If you look at the UN agenda's moving forward you will not find any dog ownership in the stack and packs they plan on everyone moving into. California has already done a great majority of the UNs work moving forward. A very scary thing for dog ownership. Every single legislation that comes out becomes a nightmare and divides more. Just imagine living out the rest of lives moving forward with no dogs, not me I couldn't imagine. I also couldn't imagine 10 years ago the paperwork I am forced to do today in order to stay compliant in my business. Its a slow boil.

    The dogs being targeted by police for the last decade, the kids being raised with no empathy towards animals all by design for a petless future. I believe the UN will say they need to be in the wild and be free, that we are not supposed to confine them or some BS like that. The mass culling 700k dogs in Britian during WW2 was likely a test.
     
  17. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    How does an IPO or PSA trainer that needs heavy compliance, tight control and movement do it without some kind of correcting tool? I understand the redirecting, I fully understand the clicker training as I use it. I understand the tug for building drive and eventually replacing food. What about a 110 pound female or a 160 pound male walking a powerful Corso or Presa though a public area and the dog hits a threshold? How do you immediately correct that with No tools? Well in Europe they kick them sometimes from what im reading in FB groups.

    Its very simple to have a mastiff type breed in the house, to redirect from chewing a couch or nipping someones ass with zero tools. For those of us that like to take our dogs out everywhere and it happens to be a feisty dog with serious drive, what is the method for immediate correction?
     
  18. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    I have no problem with folks using whatever they want , as long as it doesn't harm the dog , mentally as well as physically ……… I just prefer to use harnesses , and really long lightweight leads . I got 3 unattended dog hanging or choking itself to death on their collar stories ……… I have very "discerning" respect for folks that "protection" train their dogs , and the "trainers" teaching these folks and training their dogs ………… my dogs can and do go anywhere , can everybody pet them ? not all of them , but that makes no difference , their not trying to bite anyone , the ones don't like strangers just ignore them …… they are all strange dog aggressive , everyone i've ever had , some been over the top , they view small animals as food , they view large animals as something to catch ……….. I can ride a bike at 15-20 miles an hour with a dog leading , tied to handle bars on a 20ft lead down a narrow horse trail with wildlife popping out all over the place, running across the trail right in front of a dog that likes to eat them , without the dog ever pulling or losing sight of what were doing …….. 98% of them I have raised from birth , but I have gotten a few adults , and some of them came with problems ………….. folks looking for dogs to make into protection/guard dogs , imo , are the ones going to cause the problems for other dog owners ……… in the US we can have guns , much safer for me and my dogs …...
     
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  19. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    Here is a guy that rehabilitates fearful aggression in France. Luckily they didn't ban the choke chain as he would have no other way to give this dog structure and immediate correction. I would imagine that a choke, prong or ecollar would work the same in this type of training. Timing is everything.

     
  20. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    steve , there is a lot going on in that situation , the collar has nothing to do with any of it …… that is not a fearful dog , that is a dog put in a completely unfamiliar situation ………… the ending was a dog familiarized with the situation , the removal of the muzzle helped , my opinion is the dog had never worn one before …….
     
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