Boerboel Pup Distraction Index (DI)

[Mike - Syris]

when I saw the x-rays , first thing I thought was that is a young dog , I never thought about the fact you said it was 15 weeks …. I have to tell you I haven't looked at a lot of 15 week puppy x-rays , I don't think it's usual to x-ray 15 week puppies …….. I can't tell what the first pic is , the second appears hip extended , while I haven't seen many , I don't think what's there is that abnormal or abnormal at all for a pup this age ……. if the third is distraction , it actually strikes me as not bad …… i'm guessing the last is the compression ? I do have this pic of normal development of a dogs hip by weeks… I got to say if they want to do something with this pup , i'd get a second opinion ………...

Yes all correct and agree in getting a second opinion, to me his hips look fine. The Vets have said by looking at these xrays the acetabular is growing slightly incorrectly and not the right angle. Im unsure how they come to this conclusion but JPS would stop the acetabular growing on this incorrect angle and help it correct itself whilst it is still developing.

 

[marke]

is there a side view of the pelvis ? an x-ray is 2 dimensional , if they can discern an angle and better yet a slight angle from one x-ray angle , i'm certainly impressed ???????? if there is a side view , and a front view , I could see that ……... i'd ask to see it , but I've never seen anything to compare it too …… how many 3-5 month old pups have he done this too ?? how long has he been doing it ? I've had plenty of dysplastic dogs live 10-14 yrs ? first mastiff I had I raised like a pitbull puppy , springpole , flirt , fetch , absolutely no care as to impact and torque , I put the pup down at about 8 months , since I've raise every pup I've had like their dysplastic , it's worked for me for a long time ………….. when I look at your x-ray the only thing I see is the shape to the cranial edge , but i'm thinking this pup is too young to judge , and I've seen very few x-rays of pups this young , i'd be interested in how many these vets have seen , along with how they turned out ? does the pup have trouble or pain ?

 

[Mike - Syris]

is there a side view of the pelvis ? an x-ray is 2 dimensional , if they can discern an angle and better yet a slight angle from one x-ray angle , i'm certainly impressed ???????? if there is a side view , and a front view , I could see that ……... i'd ask to see it , but I've never seen anything to compare it too …… how many 3-5 month old pups have he done this too ?? how long has he been doing it ? I've had plenty of dysplastic dogs live 10-14 yrs ? first mastiff I had I raised like a pitbull puppy , springpole , flirt , fetch , absolutely no care as to impact and torque , I put the pup down at about 8 months , since I've raise every pup I've had like their dysplastic , it's worked for me for a long time ………….. when I look at your x-ray the only thing I see is the shape to the cranial edge , but i'm thinking this pup is too young to judge , and I've seen very few x-rays of pups this young , i'd be interested in how many these vets have seen , along with how they turned out ? does the pup have trouble or pain ?

These were the only Xrays provided.

John Punke is tge Vet Specialist we have been referred to who is a well renouned Vet here in Adelaide Australia.

JPS is becoming a more common procedure he does due to more awareness and recommendations by Vets to have early Xrays on Giant Breeds done. DPO and TPO are more common in his practise though.

That being said, this makes me more skeptical as Vets could be looking at this as an easy money maker. Most owners will choose to have JPS done if its recommended by the Vet if it means not having to complete a more invasive procedure further down the track.

So im completely torn in regards to what avenue to take moving forward but first a second opinion is a must i think.

Syris has some discomfort in his right hip and does sway when he walks but no more then what my previous pups have done.

The vet has said roughly 80% of his patients that have under gone JPS have had positive results and correction of the hip growth which has shown on thw follow up xrays 6 months after the procedure. Again im skeptical....as there may have been no issue with the hips to begin with and regardless of the JPS procedure the hips have continued to grow normally.

 

[Loverboy Skyline]

Yes all correct and agree in getting a second opinion, to me his hips look fine. The Vets have said by looking at these xrays the acetabular is growing slightly incorrectly and not the right angle. Im unsure how they come to this conclusion but JPS would stop the acetabular growing on this incorrect angle and help it correct itself whilst it is still developing.

Just curious. What is the JPS procedure? What are they doing to correct the hips? How much does it cost?

 

[Loverboy Skyline]

Well I came across this article on JPS:

https://www.dvm360.com/view/juvenil...cal-solution-canine-hip-dysplasia-proceedings

Based on what is says, your window of time is dwindling. You probably need to make a decision fast if you're going to do it. It does say a reasonable candidate has a DI >0.4 which seems like a better number to me than 0.3.

 

[marke]

i'd have a problem with someone using the word "slightly" and medical intervention ……. I assure you mildly dysplastic mastiffs lead normal full lives , moderately dysplastic dogs raised and exercised correctly lead normal full lives ……I've seen seriously dysplastic dogs go 6-8 yrs …... I've known more folks than I could ever remember that bred large breed dogs , some very dysplastic breeds , I've not personally known one who had any of these procedures done tpo or jps , tpo was actually the one I was familiar with , I assumed jps had the same intent ……. the only people I've ever known x-rayed 16 week old pups were a few pet owners who were told and believed HD was a death sentence , and a few puppymillers who used pennhip as a marketing strategy ………. if someone came to me with one of my pups that penhipped .6 at 15 weeks and said his vet recommended surgical intervention , i'd strongly argue against it ………. you'd need to show me an obviously deformed hip that without doubt had no chance of becoming anything remotely normal to have me consider it …….. how many seriously dysplastic pups his the breeder produced ?? are folks having problems with your pups littermates ? maybe 10-15yrs ago I lost a 12yr old female ddb that trotted maybe 30-50 miles a week for most of her life , she was mildy dysplastic …… the dog I pictured earlier his sisters hips were just like his , she used to drag a tire for 4-6 miles , here hips were probably low moderate , high mild , she lived 12yrs …….. when I first started with large breed dogs I had vets tell me hd was a death sentence , as time went on I discovered how much they didn't know , and so did they ……. 15 weeks is too young to be having any hip dysplasia issues …… my advice , keep the pup skinny , and walk him as much as he wants , pups will want to walk more than you ….. up hills , find a good steep hill , up and down , walk , up is great for the rear , down is great for the front ……….

 

[TylerDurden]

First of all, I‘m very sorry you have to go through such a difficult decision making process as it relates to a very young dog. On the one hand, the procedure seems to have a relatively high success rate and could prevent more invasive procedures in the future. On the other hand, it may not even be necessary and you would put a young dog through a lot. Again, it‘s incredibly difficult...
I‘m not expert on this type of problem or surgery, but I do want to say that I personally would put a lot of trust in @marke recommendations, opinions and thoughts given his experience and open and honest feedback on many of those topics.
Also, I find it interesting that geography seems to play such a big role in vet behavior and practices. I don‘t think that the majority of the vets in the US would even consider xrays in such a young dog unless he/she had severe issues/symptoms. This is not meant to blame your vet, I‘m just surprised about the differences and wonder where they are coming from. People are always fast to make claims that they are only doing this for the money. While it could be true, maybe there is different research that vets in Australia rely on. It‘s probably more complex and even within Australia, it could very well be a local/regional thing. Either way, I wish you all the best in making the right decision leading to the best outcome for your dog.

 

[Mike - Syris]

Just curious. What is the JPS procedure? What are they doing to correct the hips? How much does it cost?

Cost is $1200 AUD and insurance covers $80%.

JPS procedure uses an electroscalpel to create scarring in the growth plate of the floor of the pelvis. The effect of this is to halt bone development from this growth plate so that as the rest of the pelvis continues to grow, the cups of the hip joint externally rotate onto the ball of the hip joint to provide better coverage of the balls of the hip joint. The surgery causes minimal discomfort and your pup will need to have his/her activities slightly restricted for 10 days after surgery. Follow-up X-rays are taken two months post-operatively (at the same time as desexing) to assess the success of the surgery.

 

[Mike - Syris]

i'd have a problem with someone using the word "slightly" and medical intervention ……. I assure you mildly dysplastic mastiffs lead normal full lives , moderately dysplastic dogs raised and exercised correctly lead normal full lives ……I've seen seriously dysplastic dogs go 6-8 yrs …... I've known more folks than I could ever remember that bred large breed dogs , some very dysplastic breeds , I've not personally known one who had any of these procedures done tpo or jps , tpo was actually the one I was familiar with , I assumed jps had the same intent ……. the only people I've ever known x-rayed 16 week old pups were a few pet owners who were told and believed HD was a death sentence , and a few puppymillers who used pennhip as a marketing strategy ………. if someone came to me with one of my pups that penhipped .6 at 15 weeks and said his vet recommended surgical intervention , i'd strongly argue against it ………. you'd need to show me an obviously deformed hip that without doubt had no chance of becoming anything remotely normal to have me consider it …….. how many seriously dysplastic pups his the breeder produced ?? are folks having problems with your pups littermates ? maybe 10-15yrs ago I lost a 12yr old female ddb that trotted maybe 30-50 miles a week for most of her life , she was mildy dysplastic …… the dog I pictured earlier his sisters hips were just like his , she used to drag a tire for 4-6 miles , here hips were probably low moderate , high mild , she lived 12yrs …….. when I first started with large breed dogs I had vets tell me hd was a death sentence , as time went on I discovered how much they didn't know , and so did they ……. 15 weeks is too young to be having any hip dysplasia issues …… my advice , keep the pup skinny , and walk him as much as he wants , pups will want to walk more than you ….. up hills , find a good steep hill , up and down , walk , up is great for the rear , down is great for the front ……….

Breeder has produced very few dogs that they are aware of with hip issues, unsure on how littermates are going but have asked

We are booked in for a second opinion tomorrow, so we shall see what the outcome is and go from there, im still very skeptical and ill be even more torn if the second opinion has the same outcome so we shall see.

 

[marke]

Breeder has produced very few dogs that they are aware of with hip issues, unsure on how littermates are going but have asked

We are booked in for a second opinion tomorrow, so we shall see what the outcome is and go from there, im still very skeptical and ill be even more torn if the second opinion has the same outcome so we shall see.

not sure how young they'll give you a preliminary , but you may be able to have your vet submit the hip extended portion of the x-ray to the ofa , I know a number of folks who have done that , or a comparable organization in Australia that will evaluate a dog that young ….

imo vets don't do stuff like this to get your money , they do it because they believe it may help , and it is in the interest of advancing they're knowledge and skills along with others ..……. I have a lot of of respect for veterinarians , but I also have seen them be wrong enough times to know they do get stuff wrong ………

 

[Loverboy Skyline]

Breeder has produced very few dogs that they are aware of with hip issues, unsure on how littermates are going but have asked

We are booked in for a second opinion tomorrow, so we shall see what the outcome is and go from there, im still very skeptical and ill be even more torn if the second opinion has the same outcome so we shall see.

Just my 2 cents. .6 is not a good score, but then again most dysplastic dogs I've known show no symptoms until they are very old and need to be put down. It's possible that the young dog is feeling some discomfort like you or I would get in our knees after running on pavement for too long, but we have no way of knowing because the dog can't communicate that to us. If you see no outward signs of lameness, which you probably don't because you are asking this, chances are your puppy will be ok until he is much older. If the surgery is successful, it might make your young dog more comfortable or give him another year or so to live. However, any time there is surgery there is the possibility of complications. I have declined surgery on myself in the past for that very reason. Marke mentioned only considering if it the hip was obviously deformed, but the article I read says it's not effective for DI >.7, so this procedure wouldn't help a very severe case anyway. I don't have any good answers for you, it's your decision, just food for thought.

 

[marke]

Some pennhip median scores for a few breeds , this is the 50th percentile for these breeds …….my guess is your dog is in the 50th-60th percentile range for boerboels

Boerboel .54

Saint Bernard .64

Tosa .58

Old English bulldog .64

Presa canario .59

Neapolitan mastiff .66

Newfoundland .58

French bulldog .71

Field spaniel .68

English setter .58

Foxhound .71

English bulldog .69

DDB .67

Dogo .59

CAO .64

Basset hound .71

Staffordshire terrier .56

Pitbull 55

Akita .58

 

[kingmark]

Cost is $1200 AUD and insurance covers $80%.

JPS procedure uses an electroscalpel to create scarring in the growth plate of the floor of the pelvis. The effect of this is to halt bone development from this growth plate so that as the rest of the pelvis continues to grow, the cups of the hip joint externally rotate onto the ball of the hip joint to provide better coverage of the balls of the hip joint. The surgery causes minimal discomfort and your pup will need to have his/her activities slightly restricted for 10 days after surgery. Follow-up X-rays are taken two months post-operatively (at the same time as desexing) to assess the success of the surgery.

Mike you have a cute little boerboel i could just say that as i am not expert i still think that your puppy is to small for that. Listen to marke he has many experience with dogs and hd so you could wait and see how it develops. Is your little one having trouble walking moving or something that?

 

[Mike - Syris]

Some pennhip median scores for a few breeds , this is the 50th percentile for these breeds …….my guess is your dog is in the 50th-60th percentile range for boerboels

Boerboel .54

Saint Bernard .64

Tosa .58

Old English bulldog .64

Presa canario .59

Neapolitan mastiff .66

Newfoundland .58

French bulldog .71

Field spaniel .68

English setter .58

Foxhound .71

English bulldog .69

DDB .67

Dogo .59

CAO .64

Basset hound .71

Staffordshire terrier .56

Pitbull 55

Akita .58

Second opinion was a similar result to the first.

Syris left hip measured 0.83 and right 0.53. Clear signs of discomfort on the bilateral hip extension, mild crepitus was palpable over the left hip region, crepitus was palpable consistently on left hip abduction, and intermittently on right hip abduction and swaying when walking, no signs of DJD.

Vet has recommended JPS to be completed, next available surgical spot is Wednesdsy next week.

The Vet was very transparent and honest it seems, she stated though she doesnt completely agree with a Surgical intervention in a Dog this age, she thinks JPS along with smart enviromental choices moving forward is the best option for Syris to avoid a more invasive procedure i.e DPO etc further down the track.

We will look at making a decision on whether to go ahead or not over the next couple of days.

Im glad we got a second opinion, this Vet seemed alot more thorough and clincal in her examination.

 

[marke]

.83 is pretty excessive ……I have to guess the guy I posted is at least that , it took a lot of work/experience to raise that guy , he did jump out a second floor window twice ….. one of his littermates raised by someone else, her hip xray looked like the joint exploded , didn't even resemble a hip joint , she was put down at 5-6yrs ………... in unilaterally dysplastic dogs , seems it is almost always the left hip , unilaterally dysplastic dogs are not usually seriously dysplastic dogs , injuries being the exception …………. please post the outcome to this , appreciate the x-rays you posted ………

 

[Boxergirl]

Does anyone know if there's a drawback or risk to doing the surgery? Other than the most basic, obvious ones for any procedure? Can doing it make things worse at any time or in any way?

I want to thank everyone that has shared their knowledge on this thread. I think this is valuable information for other people that may be in the same situation. Mike - Syris, I wish you the best of luck and hope you keep us updated.

 

[marke]

i went back to see .83 , initially I didn't see .83 anywhere , but I also couldn't see the distraction tool ...….the x-ray i couldn't discern was the distraction view, I cleaned it up so I could see it ….. I do see .83 , and it doesn't appear unilateral , it's both ……. tough choice ……...

 

[marke]

the guy standing upright at the fence is the x-ray I posted earlier

a large part of the reason my dogs have never had problems with hd , I've bred nothing but impressive rear conformation to impressive rear conformation for a long time , and know how to exercise a puppy without trashing their hips ….. my goal was to get them to 8months without djd , after that I always believed the detrimental changes to the joint progresses slowly , and I made sure they had enough muscle mass to hold them together …… greyhounds get arthritic , everything does ……...

and I always have looked a little deeper than just outward appearance , I always believed breeding hip conformation was no different that breeding a head type , you just needed to see it