Growling?

[Boxergirl]

Just some food for thought. I am really not trying to say that my way is the only way. I don't think that for one minute. I DO think that we have a lot of people that read and the more information that can be shared, the better.

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/why-punishment-should-be-avoided

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...t/201412/it-makes-no-sense-punish-fearful-dog

*Editing to say that I do not think Steven C's advice was to use extreme punishment and the posting of these articles is just the imparting of information.*

 

[Ben Curtis]

I stumbled on to this as I normally don't comment here. However, I would hate to see this dog end up in a rescue. This is a Cane Corso, a guardian breed. He is growling as he is doing his job. If you feel the growl is inappropriate the "enough" will not work yet. This is a highly dominant breed that needs dominant corrections. If you do not start doing proper corrections, this will get much worse as the dog matures. Get a prong collar and leave the dog leashed with you when you let someone in. If you feel its innapropriate the dog growls and you say no, do a small correction with the prong, if the small correction doesn't work, do a stronger correction until the growl stops. This will let the dog know that you are in charge and the dog needs to trust you. Don't worry, you will not hurt the dog. This is a tickle to them, enough to cause a reminder that you are in charge. 6 months is a perfect age to start proper corrections as 1 year might get out of hand for a new guardian breed owner.

We have a very dominant female Corso that took my wife a long time to become a leader over. Its an energy thing, its hard to fake dominance, the dog constantly misbehaved with her only but she decided to learn to no longer be weak and now the dog obeys her just as much as me. She began petting the dog less and working her more. Excessive petting is a sign of weakness to a guardian breed.

When you the master walks in the room when the dog is misbehaving, he should automatically stop once you appear as he knows he is misbehaving. I have learned in the last year that many folks buying these Corso are thinking they are getting a Golden retriever. These are not dogs to take in public to allow people to slobber over, these dogs do not trust outside of the family and never will, they have to trust you which requires you to take leadership. When you take the dog out in public, you walk and do not allow the dog to focus on anyone except you., when someone comes in the house, you keep the dog leashed until the dog obeys you.

Steven,
Thanks for your input, and this is very much what our breeder recommended too. We've tried what has been recommended here to give him his space, but it seems to only be amplifying the problem. This my second Corso, and I feel like I have a good grasp of what I was getting when getting this puppy. My one question for you is, do you understand this misbehaving is fear based not rebellion. If I tell him to sit and stay with a stranger in the house he will do it, but he will growl the entire time. I have him as much under control as could be expected for a 7 month old puppy. I can have him off leash heel around a stranger in the house, and he will obey, but he will growl the entire time.
What I have been struggling with is, making him comfortable with strangers that I deem safe, and correcting him, and possibly making him less comfortable. I completely agree that this could be a much bigger problem, and that's why I am coming here for help, and ideas.

Thanks,
Ben

 

[Ben Curtis]

I thought about this all night, in context to Steven's reply, (good to see you again, Steven C.) and I think I've organized my thoughts.

I don't have a problem with correction per se, I feel that in a situation where we haven't seen the dog - and aren't certified behaviorists - that advising certain things can be risky. I 100% agree with leashing Enzo in the house. I agree with making one walk a day a structured working walk - or split the walk up into working and relaxed. I also agree with reminding him that you've "got it" and he can stand down. The problem is that I don't believe Enzo is growling because he's presenting a guarding behavior. From everything you've described, Enzo is very frightened. You described him as growling and cowering. That's an extreme fear response from such a young dog. You can't punish away, or correct an emotion. You can only suppress it, and that's not healthy or healing.

Steven C's dog, from his descriptions of her, has always been a confident and assertive dog. I've been reading your posts from the time you brought Enzo home and he doesn't appear to be a confident and assertive dog. It's very important to really look at the dog in front of you and train *that* dog. It may be that a stern correction will stop the growling. The problem with that is that just because you've stopped the behavior, you haven't taken away the fear or changed how the dog feels about what's causing the fear. That makes for a very unreliable dog long term. Your dog may stop the behavior when his or her people are right there, but that doesn't mean that you'll be able to have someone come in when you aren't home. That will take time to build a relationship where the dog trusts the person meant to be his caregiver. It also doesn't mean that the fear has gone away and then you run the risk of what happens if that fear just gets to be too much. That, imo, is the problem of working to stop just the behavior rather than also changing the mindset that is causing the behavior.

So I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Steven or saying that a correction is going to ruin your dog. I'm suggesting exercising caution and being aware that stopping the behavior in the moment doesn't necessarily mean a life long solution. Humans are hard wired to punish and correct. It's a lot easier and quicker to stop a behavior in the now than to change the underlying emotional response that's causing the undesirable behavior. It's really worth the time to make sure that this is handled in the best way for your dog so you can end up with a confident and reliable dog in the future.

Please consider bringing in a professional that can help you evaluate the situation. Are you open to a consultation with a certified behaviorist or even a veterinary technician with a specialty in behavior? If you'd like to share your location I can see if there's anyone in your area that looks good. I would strongly suggest getting videos of the behaviors that are troubling you so that you can have a professional evaluate the situation, even if they can't be there in person. A fearful dog can be a dangerous dog. I know. I lived with one for many years. The assertive dogs I've had have been easier by far to work with than the genetically fearful one.

One last thought ... Did you meet Enzo's parents? What were they like? I know that he was older when you brought him home. That indicates that the breeder initially kept him for their program and then changed their mind. I know that happens all the time, but I wonder if you know exactly why he became available?

Enzo is absolutely fearful. His father, grandmother, and siblings were so happy to greet us. No issues at all there. I'm in Hampden, Maine. I would be more than happy to have a behaviorist over.

Thanks,

 

[Boxergirl]

I think you do know your dog, Ben. I think you have good instincts. I would cautiously suggest that perhaps you are moving too fast with Enzo. The growling tells me that he's uncomfortable in the situation and perhaps you need to step it back to where he's more comfortable. I understand that you were hoping to have someone come in to let him out for the holiday and perhaps moved forward quickly with that in mind. My suggestion based on your above response is to go slower. If he's growling then he's outside his comfort zone. Perhaps having him in his place at a distance where he's comfortable and zero interaction until he's ready might work better for him. Perhaps being leashed and too close to the people is more than he can handle? It can take a long time to make progress with a fearful dog.

I don't know anyone in your area, but I'll do some looking and see if I can find some options for you.

 

[Boxergirl]

I'm only comfortable recommending behaviorists/trainers that are listed with the IAABC. I follow a LIMA approach to training. That's Least Invasive Minimally Aversive training methodology.
https://m.iaabc.org/about/position-statements/lima/

I only see one certified trainer/behaviorist in your area. I've recommended trainers before based upon their web presence that used methods that were totally different than what their website stated (sorry Jarena!). This looks like someone I would consider calling and talking to about the issue and getting a feel for what they have to say.
https://iaabc.org/consultants
https://www.greenacreskennel.com/

 

[April Nicole]

We are going through the same process with Logan. Our oldest daughter has her first boyfriend, and he is frequently visiting. For our first meeting Logan was in his kennel in the garage. We all walked into the garage casually, my husband with us, and stood by his kennel and chatted. Logan looked at boyfriend, then at hubby, then at boyfriend, then back to hubby again. Like, who the hell is this?? And what do you want me to do about his presence?? So hubby gave boyfriend the ok to place hand near the kennel for Logan to get a smell. Logan sniffed then let out a "woof" Boyfriend then replied, " I didn't know animals this big could be domesticated!, are you sure it's a dog!! LOL.. So we ignored Logan, and kept talking.. about 30 minutes later hubby gave boyfriend a piece of ham. Logan accepted it happily. Then we ignored him and talked. Logan kept an eye on our visitor, but only barked once, and no growling. So we repeated this process w Logan in the kennel, but this time in the house. We just hung out and talked, while Logan watched. Again same process, a sniff, then a while later, a treat. And ignoring him in between.
Logan did well. No barking this time.
So next we will try to have husband have Logan on a double lead, (with a prong for insurance), and sit casually and talk with Logan in the room. If he barks or growls, we will go back to having him in the kennel for a few more visits. I do agree with Steven about C.Cs being guardian breeds. You do have to be very careful. ESPECIALLY if the dog is fearful!! I wouldn't take any chances. I would have the dog contained, or at the very least, leashed with a double lead. Take it slow, I'm sure Enzo will come around. But, don't take any chances. A fearful dog is more prone to attack than a confident one.

 

[Ben Curtis]

I think you do know your dog, Ben. I think you have good instincts. I would cautiously suggest that perhaps you are moving too fast with Enzo. The growling tells me that he's uncomfortable in the situation and perhaps you need to step it back to where he's more comfortable. I understand that you were hoping to have someone come in to let him out for the holiday and perhaps moved forward quickly with that in mind. My suggestion based on your above response is to go slower. If he's growling then he's outside his comfort zone. Perhaps having him in his place at a distance where he's comfortable and zero interaction until he's ready might work better for him. Perhaps being leashed and too close to the people is more than he can handle? It can take a long time to make progress with a fearful dog.

I don't know anyone in your area, but I'll do some looking and see if I can find some options for you.

Boxergirl,
I'm in agreement. I can't remember if someone said it here, or if it was our breeder, but the attitude that if you want to be with us and our guests, you need to be calm, if not you can be in a room / kennel where you are comfortable, until you want to come out and not growl. Not as a punishment, just so everyone, including guests and Enzo are comfortable. I think once he is in the other room, he will continue to growl when he hears new voices. This will be where I correct him more sternly, because he is acting more out of aggression rather than fear, because there is no need to be fearful in this comfortable place.
I loved the recent article, and intend to try and do as much distract, reward, to try and associate strangers with a positive reward.

Thanks again so much for your help!
Ben

 

[Ben Curtis]

We are going through the same process with Logan. Our oldest daughter has her first boyfriend, and he is frequently visiting. For our first meeting Logan was in his kennel in the garage. We all walked into the garage casually, my husband with us, and stood by his kennel and chatted. Logan looked at boyfriend, then at hubby, then at boyfriend, then back to hubby again. Like, who the hell is this?? And what do you want me to do about his presence?? So hubby gave boyfriend the ok to place hand near the kennel for Logan to get a smell. Logan sniffed then let out a "woof" Boyfriend then replied, " I didn't know animals this big could be domesticated!, are you sure it's a dog!! LOL.. So we ignored Logan, and kept talking.. about 30 minutes later hubby gave boyfriend a piece of ham. Logan accepted it happily. Then we ignored him and talked. Logan kept an eye on our visitor, but only barked once, and no growling. So we repeated this process w Logan in the kennel, but this time in the house. We just hung out and talked, while Logan watched. Again same process, a sniff, then a while later, a treat. And ignoring him in between.
Logan did well. No barking this time.
So next we will try to have husband have Logan on a double lead, (with a prong for insurance), and sit casually and talk with Logan in the room. If he barks or growls, we will go back to having him in the kennel for a few more visits. I do agree with Steven about C.Cs being guardian breeds. You do have to be very careful. ESPECIALLY if the dog is fearful!! I wouldn't take any chances. I would have the dog contained, or at the very least, leashed with a double lead. Take it slow, I'm sure Enzo will come around. But, don't take any chances. A fearful dog is more prone to attack than a confident one.

Thanks April. We have been trying something very similar, but the kennel seems to make his growling worse. My guess is that he is confined, backed into a corner, and can't escape. We are going to move him to a separate room, with a glass door, so he can still see everything, but I'm hoping will be more comfortable in there then the room.
I do think we need to take a step back, like in training, and go back to the basics, and understand like you did that there may be setbacks, and we deal with them as they happen.

Ben

 

[Boxergirl]

Boxergirl,
I'm in agreement. I can't remember if someone said it here, or if it was our breeder, but the attitude that if you want to be with us and our guests, you need to be calm, if not you can be in a room / kennel where you are comfortable, until you want to come out and not growl. Not as a punishment, just so everyone, including guests and Enzo are comfortable. I think once he is in the other room, he will continue to growl when he hears new voices. This will be where I correct him more sternly, because he is acting more out of aggression rather than fear, because there is no need to be fearful in this comfortable place.
I loved the recent article, and intend to try and do as much distract, reward, to try and associate strangers with a positive reward.

Thanks again so much for your help!
Ben

Please remember that there is no rhyme or reason to fear. It's not logical. Of course you're right that there's no reason to be fearful, but you can't reason with a dog. Nor can you reason with an emotional response. You also can't make him more or less afraid than he already is. That's something that has to come from him. But you can help him get there. I don't think he's growling from aggression even if he's in another room. I think, for whatever reason, he's afraid. The growling is bluster to make the scary thing go away. That's not the same as aggression. I absolutely agree with removing him from the situation, or crating, until he can be calm and behave as you expect him to behave. That's not punishment. It's management and it's imperative for him to see that even if he blusters, nobody is going to give him attention or go away. Remember, even negative attention can be reinforcing. I would completely ignore after the initial "I've got this" statement and removal of him to his "safe place." And that safe place is somewhere he should not be approached. At this point I think it should be YOU that is making rewards rain from the sky when there's a guest and he's behaving properly.

I worked for nine years with my boy who was diagnosed with severe generalized anxiety. He came to me that way at 7 weeks. It was nine years of never ending work. For a period of time it was work just to get him out the door. Baby steps. It was a lot of baby steps. If he regresses, then you've moved too fast. Until you're 100% confident that he's trustworthy around guests/strangers, use management to keep everyone safe. At the end of Al's life, he was in a good place. He taught me more than any dog I've ever had and he definitely taught me about the illogical nature of fear. He is the reason my daughter is a trainer and pursuing her behavioral specialty. So she can help other dogs like Al. You're going to learn a lot from Enzo and it's going to benefit every dog that comes after him. I don't say too often, but I admit that I made terrible mistakes with Al in the beginning. I used methods that were too harsh for him, and I've very sorry for that. I didn't know better. It's why I choose to err on the side of caution when dealing with anxious and fearful dogs and particularly when giving advice on the internet. Because you just never know what's too harsh for someone else's dog. Trust your instincts. They're good.

 

[Nik]

Please remember that there is no rhyme or reason to fear. It's not logical. Of course you're right that there's no reason to be fearful, but you can't reason with a dog. Nor can you reason with an emotional response. You also can't make him more or less afraid than he already is. That's something that has to come from him. But you can help him get there. I don't think he's growling from aggression even if he's in another room. I think, for whatever reason, he's afraid. The growling is bluster to make the scary thing go away. That's not the same as aggression. I absolutely agree with removing him from the situation, or crating, until he can be calm and behave as you expect him to behave. That's not punishment. It's management and it's imperative for him to see that even if he blusters, nobody is going to give him attention or go away. Remember, even negative attention can be reinforcing. I would completely ignore after the initial "I've got this" statement and removal of him to his "safe place." And that safe place is somewhere he should not be approached. At this point I think it should be YOU that is making rewards rain from the sky when there's a guest and he's behaving properly.

I worked for nine years with my boy who was diagnosed with severe generalized anxiety. He came to me that way at 7 weeks. It was nine years of never ending work. For a period of time it was work just to get him out the door. Baby steps. It was a lot of baby steps. If he regresses, then you've moved too fast. Until you're 100% confident that he's trustworthy around guests/strangers, use management to keep everyone safe. At the end of Al's life, he was in a good place. He taught me more than any dog I've ever had and he definitely taught me about the illogical nature of fear. He is the reason my daughter is a trainer and pursuing her behavioral specialty. So she can help other dogs like Al. You're going to learn a lot from Enzo and it's going to benefit every dog that comes after him. I don't say too often, but I admit that I made terrible mistakes with Al in the beginning. I used methods that were too harsh for him, and I've very sorry for that. I didn't know better. It's why I choose to err on the side of caution when dealing with anxious and fearful dogs and particularly when giving advice on the internet. Because you just never know what's too harsh for someone else's dog. Trust your instincts. They're good.

"You can't reason with an emotional response". Absolutely. You can't reason with fear whether it's in a human or in a dog. My husband has tried many times to reason with my fears but when he tries to push me to far to confront my fears rather than conquering them I shut down completely and go into complete panic mode and that is me as a human completely understanding every word he says. (Examples: In the ocean with him trying to get me to swim/float out past where my feet can touch with him holding my hand the whole time. Example 2: Hiking along narrow steep up high cliffs. At a certain point in both situations I just shut down and refuse and if he pushes the issue and tries to drag or force me I panic and struggle.) Point being if if a human who trusts and loves someone and can understand every word they say can lose all ration and go into panic/fight/flight mode when pushed to confront their fear too much it is that much worse for the dog who can't understand every word we are saying. Too fast and all at once doesn't work with fear.

 

[Steven C]

Steven,
Thanks for your input, and this is very much what our breeder recommended too. We've tried what has been recommended here to give him his space, but it seems to only be amplifying the problem. This my second Corso, and I feel like I have a good grasp of what I was getting when getting this puppy. My one question for you is, do you understand this misbehaving is fear based not rebellion. If I tell him to sit and stay with a stranger in the house he will do it, but he will growl the entire time. I have him as much under control as could be expected for a 7 month old puppy. I can have him off leash heel around a stranger in the house, and he will obey, but he will growl the entire time.
What I have been struggling with is, making him comfortable with strangers that I deem safe, and correcting him, and possibly making him less comfortable. I completely agree that this could be a much bigger problem, and that's why I am coming here for help, and ideas.

Thanks,
Ben

I completely agree with the breeder. I think he/she knows their line the best. I do not see any reason to not correct the dog fear or not. Its something that needs to get done no matter what so why not do it as you would need to with any Corso anyway. If prong collars are illegal, use a choke. As far as the growling goes, I have learned in the last 17 months that Corso are more vocal than any other dog ive owned. Ours growls at things she deems strange or at appropriate times thankfully, she has a horrendous double type bark. Also ours makes whimpering sounds when she wants something she cant have, this needs corrections and it stops. At this point our corrections are mostly "No". But this took months of hard work and corrections through all stages and believe me, we have the toughest alpha female possible. Just because its fear based in my opinion doesn't get her a pass at strict obedience training.

I would be thankful your Corso is growling and shape it. I like that he growls, its shows he is feisty at 6 months and you can work with that. It would be almost depressing if our Corso didn't growl or bark at things that are out of the ordinary. Hundreds of people can walk passed us outside and all is fine, until someone is weird, hiding or acting strange or coming fast towards us and talking to me. She barks and it used to bother me, but know I accept that she is doing her job as long as its only with abnormal happenings. People ask to pet her and I tell them she is not friendly, by this point she may have already let out a bark which immediately backs them off. Growling and barking is not attacking. If your dog lunges and tries to attack, you have to revisit the scenario. These dogs need firm leadership they can trust.

There is only so much you can do until you realize these are guardian breeds, not meant to be ultra socialized, petted or introduced to everyone. They growl, they bark, they show they don't like things and its what we purchased.

 

[Steven C]

This guy shows his presence and the dog stops. This comes after months of corrections.

 

[Ben Curtis]

My son and girlfriend just came home from college, and he growled once. Unfortunately they came in the house before we were able to tell them we wanted to introduce outside. My wife corrected the growl with "knock it off" immediately, put him in sit, and over rewarded with praise the good behavior, and he did not growl again. Not only that he seemed much more comfortable around the guests than she has seen in a while.
My father in law and nephew (16) arrived a short time after. I introduced outside, one super small start to a growl, I corrected with a slight pull of the leash, got his attention, put him in sit, rewarded him with praise, and no further growl.
We've had a week of strict corrections, and have seen no results. The first two times we try just redirecting his attention, and rewarding the positive behavior, we see by far the best results we have seen so far. Not only that, when we correct more forcefully, he knows he is a bad dog, and the shaking and cowering seems to almost overwhelm him. Just a few minutes ago, he seemed like a confident dog, proud to be doing what his owners wanted.
We will keep a close eye on him. Everyone knows what's going on, but after what I just say, i'm feeling 100 times more confident in my big boy.

 

[Ben Curtis]

This guy shows his presence and the dog stops. This comes after months of corrections.

I got a similar response 2nd time I tried positive reinforcement and had a happy dog, so it seems like positive works quicker then negative. Also I would not want to encourage the behavior in that video at all. Not at all what I want in my Corso, and I've now met around 30 corso's and none at all acted anything like that dog. I get that some need that level of protection, but I don't.
I do very much appreciate the input thought.

 

[Steven C]

I got a similar response 2nd time I tried positive reinforcement and had a happy dog, so it seems like positive works quicker then negative. Also I would not want to encourage the behavior in that video at all. Not at all what I want in my Corso, and I've now met around 30 corso's and none at all acted anything like that dog. I get that some need that level of protection, but I don't.
I do very much appreciate the input thought.

What is the purpose of owning a Corso? Why purchase a Corso if guarding is not what his/her intended job is? Why buy a Jack Russel terrier if herding is not what is intended? Im just curious. I mean we love affection in dogs so we bought 2 toy poodles. I have escaped 3 deadly ambushes, when I shop for a Corso I know exactly what I am getting. The video above shows a dog working, no abuse, no violence, just working and I see nothing wrong with that. Good luck with your turning a guard dog into a docile golden.

 

[Boxergirl]

That's an excellent update, Ben. It sounds like Enzo is a sensitive boy and you have to be careful what kind of corrections you use. It doesn't matter what you or I think is aversive. It matters what the dog thinks is aversive. For some it's a raised voice. Please consider getting a certified behaviorist/positive trainer to view his behavior. Another set of experienced eyes is valuable. Please keep us updated. I really want to know how Enzo is doing.

 

[Boxergirl]

What is the purpose of owning a Corso? Why purchase a Corso if guarding is not what his/her intended job is? Why buy a Jack Russel terrier if herding is not what is intended? Im just curious. I mean we love affection in dogs so we bought 2 toy poodles. I have escaped 3 deadly ambushes, when I shop for a Corso I know exactly what I am getting. The video above shows a dog working, no abuse, no violence, just working and I see nothing wrong with that. Good luck with your turning a guard dog into a docile golden.

The response in the video can be achieved with positive methods as well. There are working dogs that have been trained using LIMA methods. Maybe this dog was even trained using those methods. It also seems that Enzo is a softer dog than you may be used to. That's why it's important to train the dog in front of you, not the dog you think he or she should be. Just my opinion.

 

[Boxergirl]

Ben, I forgot something. Hand targeting. It can be immensely helpful for fearful and shy dogs. I can't believe I didn't think of that when I use it all the time. See? That's why you need a professional (my daughter is home and suggested it) as your other set of eyes. Targeting is useful in a million ways, not just for fearful dogs. Here's one article specific to dogs that are fearful, but do some searching for other uses. It really is a handy thing to teach your dog.

https://www.clickertraining.com/helping-shy-dogs-blossom

 

[Steven C]

The response in the video can be achieved with positive methods as well. There are working dogs that have been trained using LIMA methods. Maybe this dog was even trained using those methods. It also seems that Enzo is a softer dog than you may be used to. That's why it's important to train the dog in front of you, not the dog you think he or she should be. Just my opinion.

Just to clarify, we own 2 clickers and have used clicker training in conjunction with corrections when we were doing basic obedience and rear end control, eye focus. So I would not consider our way of training negative. I would consider our way of training one that works for this class of dog. I think he needs to start with eye focus because once the dog looks at you when you call him half the battle is over. All Corso go through a fear stage, it doesn't exclude them from being corrected. One of our Poodles likes to act as if he went through a terrible divorce to try and get out of trouble, should we fall for the manipulation? After our corrections on our high drive Corso, our dog is safe without a muzzle in any place so I would consider that as it has worked.

 

[Boxergirl]

Just to clarify, we own 2 clickers and have used clicker training in conjunction with corrections when we were doing basic obedience and rear end control, eye focus. So I would not consider our way of training negative. I would consider our way of training one that works for this class of dog. I think he needs to start with eye focus because once the dog looks at you when you call him half the battle is over. All Corso go through a fear stage, it doesn't exclude them from being corrected. One of our Poodles likes to act as if he went through a terrible divorce to try and get out of trouble, should we fall for the manipulation? After our corrections on our high drive Corso, our dog is safe without a muzzle in any place so I would consider that as it has worked.

Steven, I've never said that your way of training is negative, abusive, or anything remotely like that. I agree, and stated in my first post, that I would begin working on focus. That's standard training no matter what method you choose to use. All dogs go through a fear stage, not just all corsos. I'm very glad that your techniques have worked for your dog. Enzo appears to have a very different temperament than your dog does and will most likely require very different handling. That doesn't mean being permissive. It means understanding what will work best without shutting this dog down. As I've said many times, positive training isn't the only way. But I do believe it's the first place everyone should start. Each person must work with their individual dog.