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Help with new aggression

bahamamarg

Well-Known Member
Hi - I am new to this and came across the forum whilst searching the internet for help.

We have 4 yr old male English Mastiff, Dexter who has developed some aggression. We've had him for only 3 months and adopted him via a rescue. He had one original owner who we are still in touch with.he lunges at people walking past and has lunged a few times taking all our strength to hold him back. - we put it down to our fault not making him feel comfortable and not doing a good job in stopping friends approaching him. *Prior to this i would have said he had some minor fear reactions (he jumps at everything even something rustling in the bushes!) and we thought it would improve with regular socializing and continuing his training and helping him to relax. He's well trained and obeys every command as long as there is no distractions.

A couple of days ago he attacked a friend. No major damage was done - he did not break skin, but tore his sleeve jacket. *There was no warning, he went straight from laying down to lunging in a second. *The guy was not too close, or looking at Dexter. *He was not gesturing or otherwise threatening. My hubby was simply sitting with him having a morning cup of tea.


We are completely devastated and need some help. *I am still in regular touch with (his original owner) and she says he's never done this before. *
 

Oak Hill Farm

Well-Known Member
First off (and I really wish rescues would pass this info along) you have to develop a bond (family, pack, whatever you want to call it) yourselves before you introduce new people. Adults dogs do not adjust like puppies. that means for 3 or four months your dog just needs to meet your immediate family (people in your home). He needs to adjust to family dynamics, what to expect, what you expect of him. Don't take him about on meet and greets, don't introduce him to your friends, just let him adjust in his own time. It's a lot to take in for an adult dog. And you need time to learn how he is going to react in situations.

Secondly you can no longer socialize your dog. At 4 years he is too old for that. You introduce young dogs (under 18 months for male mastiffs perhaps only 12-14 for females) to new things right away while their mind is accepting, soft and malleable. This closes by 24 months at the latest and often way before then. After that you have what you have. Now all you can do is teach behavior modification. You can teach him to largely ignore most things, but not accept them.

For now I would go back to basics. One month don't meet with anyone other than a trainer (which I recommend). Do regular obedience on your own with him. I can't stress enough how this benefits so many things. I would also implement a NILIF program for now (even if you are not having those specific problems). If people come over in this period, put him in a separate room. When this month is over I would start small. Have a friend come over (pre arm him with treats). Have your dog leashed at all times. Watch your dog at all times (don't make this a social visit). When he comes in have him throw the treat on the floor by the dog. Don't have anyone talk to, look at or otherwise acknowledge the dog. Set a distance away from friend (dog on lead still). Have a conversation. You are looking for calm behavior, laying down, calmly sitting not paying interest to the visitor. Let him leave (don't walk to the door with the dog.) You need to set up many scenarios like this SLOWLY. One a week at most.
You can set up these types of encounters on walks as well, but for the time being don't interact with strangers.

By the line "continue his training" I hope you are meeting with an experience trainer in behavior modification and/or fear reactive dogs. It's something that is much more easily managed or taught when a trainer is there to gauge his reactions at the time.
 

bahamamarg

Well-Known Member
Thank you SO much for responding quickly. I'm sure the mistakes are all ours. The rescue did inform us about bonding and not introducing new people, but for various reasons, it did not happen. So do you think that his stress has just built up over the 3 months? We also have an 11 yr old mix breed (lab/retriever) who is not well adjusted or friendly on the beach. He has always 'rushed' at people and we have to be constantlyon guard with him too - we've been looking after him for 3 yrs (he belonged to a friend who had to move away). I'm also thinking that his behavior has influenced Dexter and that I should maybe walk them separately? We live on an island in the Bahamas, so there is no acess to trainers but I've asked some friends, and the rescue, if they have any recommendations to someone who may be able to help from a distance. - I realize however that this may not be possible or even work. His previous owner used a e collar - which I immediately hated and was desperate to get it off him. She felt that he has a different attitude when wearing the collar. After this incident I went back to putting it on him but am still not comfortable but at all costs know that we have to keep him and others safe. I don't believe the collar would have helped in that situation as it happened too fast to react. Where can I find more information on nilf training?
 

Oak Hill Farm

Well-Known Member
Ahhh..the e collar, that explains fear reactiveness. If used incorrectly (which I suspect it was) it can cause fear aggression in most dogs. I wouldn't say stress building up, he is just uncomfortable and unsure how to handle some situations he has been in. It could be a simple as the smell of your friend the tone of voice, anything we might not comprehend, yet your dog has an unpleasant memory associated with it. I know a dog that was treated harshly by a trainer in a cowboy hat, now all cowboy hats are suspect to him, even on different people.

Google NILIF and you will find a multitude of info. Basically it breaks down to "Nothing in life is free". Your dog has to wait for an ok or preform sits/down or be calm for just about everything. My dogs all know the down stay for food. Time varies, sometimes its a few seconds or minutes, but they trust they will get it in the end. You may have to start with a quick sit and work from there. As your dog adjust you can get laxer on the rules, if he regresses go back.

I would walk them separately for now. that way you know what personality is his and what he is picking up on from your other dog. Dogs can easily pick up habits from other dogs, especially if they are unsure they just 'go along".

You just have to take it slowly. In most cases fear reactive behavior can be managed, you just have to be willing to put in the work.
 

Marrowshard

Well-Known Member
We too adopted an EM from the local shelter (he was 3-ish, will be 4-ish in May) and discovered a few issues. Good news is you're not alone! Oscar's fine with humans but only about 50/50 with other dogs. I agree with Oak Hill: you need to give your new boy lots of time to adjust. One of the first things we did is make a "den" for Oscar to give him a safe place to be. He's kenneled at night, and it's his own space away from everyone else. He doesn't always enjoy spending all night in there, but it's the first place he goes when he's not feeling well. It's got plenty of blankets, is "closed" on three sides, and has a blanket over the top. Quiet, dark(er), and smells like him. If Dexter's being overwhelmed with new people/places/smells etc. it might be a good idea to give him a private secure place.

~Marrow
 

bahamamarg

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the input Marrow it's a relief to know we are not alone and being first time Mastiff owners, the advise is invaluable. We love Dexter so much already and want to do the best for him and us. I now think we tried to take things too fast with him as we had not yet learnt his signals for feeling unhappy. He had a huge amount of stress to deal with in getting here (a stranger took him away from his mommy, made him get onto a big scary airplane, then off to a completely new environment) we took his quiet and seemingly calm nature to mean he was relaxed and happy! We plan on no more trips to the bench (our equivalent of a dog park) and we're going back to basics! Looking back we probably gave him too much freedom and too much love too soon!
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
Follow these good folks advice and you'll be solid. Kona aint our first mastiff, but I've learned from these folks that we handled many things incorrect with her and Budda. And there is always sign's. Both Budda and Kona would at a min close their mouth. Kona drops hear head and stretches out her neck. And the close mouth in and of it's self was obvious. It has an intense stare with it. Just yesterday Kona did this while laying. But I caught her change before hand so when she lunged I was waiting, corrected her to sit, good girl, and change her focus. My goal is simply tolerate. She can dislike all she wants, she just cant react to it unless threatened
 

bahamamarg

Well-Known Member
Thanks chuckorlando. Who would have thought that these huge animals have such subtle signs. Weve taken the Voidence approach for a while - which is fairly easy since in 3 months of walking at least 3 times daily, we've only come across a handful of people! I had thought that was good for him to be exposed to more people, places etc but seems like we moved too fast. I truly hope this is something we can train out of him as it appears to be a fairly new symptom. We often go several weeks without house visitors - I worry though that this will do the opposite and make him more wary of strangers if he is not exposed?

I think we've already been practicing nilif without knowing it called that!! He has to sit for meals, sit at the door, sit for on/off leash everything. and he complies beautifully. It's only when distractions are present that he does not listen (the most important part right?). How do we achieve this without resorting to a nick fro the e collar (which instantly changes his thought pattern). Any ideas would be appreciated. This week I've introduced 2 new things. One is 'look' I'm using treats up to my eyes to encourage him to look at me since I've noticed he does not look at us often when out or giving commands. The other is to use the pager on the collar - which gives a harmless vibration. I'm combining this with 'come' to see if we can train him to pay attention when his nose is into something else.
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
I dont think socializing is really just bring the dog around people as in friends. But rather letting them see that the world is full of things coming and going. I like to take Kona t places with people and things going on, but not where she needs to be really close or involved. I could be way wrong as well. Just seems you would'nt understand things yu've never experianced. Then once your to a point of trusting her and she in you, you let folks come around a little.

I thought like you as well at first, and it's great when their little pups. But all dogs aint that easy. hahahahaha
 

bahamamarg

Well-Known Member
Yeah, we never got to do the whole puppy thing - we purposely adopted an older dog thinking we were not home enough to deal with the puppy stages. Of course, with the adult dog may come some adult baggage, although I'm really thinking along Ceasars's lines in that it's our fault, not his! We are listening to all the good advise, and it gives me hope that we can help him overcome this. A few days ago I was thinking this was the end and we'd have to re-home him which was never in my mind before.....
 

zebraworks

Well-Known Member
seems that many dogs know commands its often that they just value some distraction more than obeying at that time, sometimes even more than a treat to try to use positive ways for them to obey, this logically would be a good place for some punishment so they obey what they already know and understand.
 

Jfleury

New Member
Hello
I am new here and we adopeted a 2 1/2 yr old EM and we r having aggression with other people. We got Kane this past Decmeber and has adjusted wonderfully with our other 3 dogs ages 6mos to 9 yrs old and also our 4 kids... BUT he dosen' t like anyone else.... Especially the VET!! Can anyone help with ideas I hate to put him away everytime people come over, Or me feel scared taking him to the vet....
 

bahamamarg

Well-Known Member
Hi j fleury - I started this thread so am in the same boat! I've listened to oak hill, marrow and others and am following advise. Although we had to go on a trip, other than our friend whomis house/dog sitting for us, we are avoiding any new people or new places right now. If we see someone on the beach I am taking him back to the house so as to avoid confrontation. I have it easy though as I live in a relatively isolated place. We are waiting to talk to a trainer our vet has recommended and Re hoping that it's just a ace where he needs more time to settle in
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
I think a trainer is your best option considering all the surrounding facts. I wish you both luck
 
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Oak Hill Farm

Well-Known Member
The main point is the OP's dog is 4 years old. The point to teach him people are great is past, closed, forever gone. He already has ideas about people. Now you work to train him to ignore and largely accept people near him. As a 4 year old it will do him no further damage to refrain from "outsiders" for a month or two, not forever, just a while. It's not like Kona who if I remember right, is essentially a puppy, missing a few months socialization. That would be detrimental to her development, and adult dogs have much more varied and possible violent reactions than puppies who as a whole are much more readable and predictable in public.

If you have a dog that is reactive and unsure how to handle himself, you do yourself, the dog, and the entire dog breed a disservice to take him in public and cause an adverse reaction. It is dangerous to take a dog in public that you can not gauge the reactions of 95% of the time. Time with the dog, training, and SLOW exposure to new stimuli is the only way to treat a new adult dog in your home. If you rush him, it could cause him to regress or god forbid an incident would happen that you can't control (like the previous bite that was mentioned). What if that would have been a child's face? While people should teach their child manners with dogs, most people don't and kids feel they can run, squeal and hug your dog. There are just some incidences you cant control, and if you have no idea how your dog might react you put yourselves in a dangerous situation that was completely avoidable.
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
I apologize, I did'nt re-read this before I posted and did'nt realize it was a grown dog. Yea thats completely diffrent than what we got going on here. And I would actualy do the same thing. Just instinct would dictate I would'nt bring the dog out like that. To much can go bad to fast with a dog as strong and determined as a mastiff. I'm gonna edit my post so as not to confuse anyone with my ramblings. hahahaha
 

bahamamarg

Well-Known Member
Well, a lOt has happened in a few short weeks. We did as suggested and isolated him from strangers for a week. Easy enough in our environment. We had a week away (no choice) and he did great with our goofd friend who he knows very well. He had explicit instructions with no new friends and avoidance if necessary. This last week we now have to cope with the loss of our 12 yr old mix breed - Dex is quiet but otherwise I can see no other signs that he is affected. We talked to a trainer who recommended everything we've heard here. Avoid the stressors, go back to basics with a prong collar and give him time. But now I have to work on my own anxiety that he's going to 'pop' everyone we are out!
 

Kelly

Well-Known Member
When it comes to the prong collar, did the trainer show you how to use it? I've got one for my EM/BM mix, she was 4 when I took her in. Previous owners never walked her cus she "pulled" (duh) and she would lunge at other dogs. If I hadn't had someone show me the proper way to put the collar on and to use it I'd probably have done some damage to her. I still put it on her when we go for a walk but I mostly have the leash on her flat collar. she walks like a dream now, and i use treats to distract her when we pass other dogs so she's not lunging anymore.
 

bahamamarg

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, we could not see the trainer just talked. He has some training videos online which I have not been able to watch yet (we have a SLOW) Internet connection at home! I looked online but found conflicting advise about where to place it - rings on top or on the side, do the prongs go under his throat or the rings? I read that u should start with the 'dead' ring first, then another site said always start with both rings connected together - how non earth are you suppose to know what is correct!!!!!! I tried the both rings together but it was not 'pinching' correctly, so am currently just connecting the dead ring only. We are still also wearing the shock collar for last resort - his issue is not pulling under most circumstances. He lunges towards passers by on the beach and chooses when to come when called! Under no distractions, he's an angel!!!!!! I really did not want the shock collar, but actually feel that the prong seems more scary to me somehow!!