Need help with weight to portion ratios

[BAMCB]

I am doing all the math(which I'm not very good at) for feeding my 2 dogs raw. I have researched and feel confident in sourcing mostly(if not 100%) locally and humanely raised organic meat, which is very important to me. I am wanting to switch for the health benefits of both while highly hopingray: it will help with my extremely overweight constantly starving rat terrier/toy poodle's insatiable appetite. We currently have organic chickens(broken down) and chicken necks and backs in our freezer which is what I would start with. My biggest concern is feeding the right amounts to be sure no ill effects or long term deficiencies. Also, letting go of the notion that kibble is best since that is what you hear your entire life , but that's another issue I guess.
I will start with Sonny, who is an unknown breed mutt(was told an EM/St. Bernard mix but that is looking highly unlikely at this point). He is 12 weeks and currently weighs around 22lbs. I have easy access to a scale and will check weekly. He was estimated(very loosely by our vet as it is too early to tell in her opinion) to mature around 60-75lbs(you can look at his growth chart which I will try to link here. So, here goes(I am converting to grams to get a more accurate weight/portion on my food scale).
70lbs --2.1 lbs daily --33.6 oz --953 grams
765 grams Muscle Meat
94 grams edible bone
47 grams liver
47 grams organ meat

Ava currently weighs almost 14lbs with a target weight of 10lbs(I know:/) but will revisit that with our vet as we go.
10lbs --.2lbs daily --3.2oz --91 grams
70 grams muscle meat
8 grams edible bones
4.5 grams liver
4.5 grams organ meat
I am hoping to supplement carrots, sweet potato or other healthy veggies to help satisfy Ava's appetite if she is still scavenging like crazy.
Do these look accurate? And, if so, what is the best way to switch? Cold Turkey? That would mean throwing away a large amount of expensive kibble! But we really need to get Ava to a healthy weight before long term issues arise. And starting the puppy sooner than later would probably be good also. Any insight or tips you can offer are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[BAMCB]

Here is his growth chart.

Sunshine AKA growth chart - Mastiff Forum

 

[cj-sharpy]

Yeah cold turkey is best, some recommend skipping a meal so that they don't have as much kibble still in there, also will encourage them to actually try this new and interesting stuff in the bowl.

Also dont get hung up on percentages or over think the whole think, precision is not the be all and end all, we aren't diffusing a bomb here, we are putting meat in to a dog. so its fine to work it all out for every meal if you choose but you can also generalize it over a week or a month.
If feeding veg i've found the best way is to lightly boil to soften (my blender is rubbish) then blitz in to a soup and freeze in meal sized portions.
Green tripe is another excellent source of veg that the animal has kindly started to break down with enzymes that a raw fed dog doesnt have enough of.

Best of luck.

 

[DennasMom]

I agree with CJ's points.

And, your math looks good to me.

Another guideline for puppies is 10% of current weight - until the 2% of expected adult weight is less (i.e. feed the smaller amount between the two)... sounds like you're right at the tipping point, so the 2.1lbs should be a good starting point - and you can adjust as needed based on body condition as you go.

I agree, cold turkey is best. The kibble you can donate to a shelter, so it doesn't go to waste.

You can fast the older dog 12-24 hours before getting the raw food. The puppy I'd just do over night, which is probably close to 10-12 hours anyway.

For "healthy" veggies to fill Ava's tummy, I'd go with lower sugar options (carrots and sweet potato are pretty sweet). Green beans are normally suggested as a good low-cal filler. Denna doesn't care for beans - she LOVES almost all veggies, but beans are not on her 'tasty' list? (maybe cooked... but not raw or frozen)

Other options: cauliflower, squash/zuccini (careful with winter squash like pumpkin... lots of fiber can cause issues with poops), broccoli, greens, etc. Avoid anything in the nightshade (tomato, eggplant) and allium (onion, garlic) families.

Also - to maximize the benefit of veggies, they need to be cooked or frozen to help break down the cellulose and make them digestible. I get a big bag of frozen mixed veggies at Costco for Denna ("Normandy mix": broccoli, cauliflower, squash and carrots), and just feed straight from the bag. Raw carrots tend to come out in poop in the same form they went in (i.e. undigested), but the frozen ones at least appear to be converted to useful form.

PS - any new pictures of the puppy?? I'm wondering if he's showing more shepherd traits with the ticking and colors from the earlier pictures...

 

[BAMCB]

Thank you very much for the great info and confidence to get started!!
I fed Ava at 9 am but will skip her meal tonight and start the raw tomorrow morning. I had planned on doing the same with the puppy but maybe I will give him a small amount to get through the night. He did a lot of playing today so probably would appreciate it. Lol
I have an organic free range chicken thawing over night. Would you suggest starting with just the breast meat? Or maybe one vertebrae from the neck should be added. We definitely have enough of these chickens to get a great start on this diet. Pork too but figured chicken may be easier.
Thank you for the explanation on the veggies. We receive a wide variety of organic veggies all summer! Add in our garden and we should keep stocked for a bit great idea for the frozen mixed bag for year round. I usually can for us but may have to start freezing for the dogs. hahaha
I am very excited to start tomorrow!! I feel like Ava is needing something different for her diet. She is constantly starving, stealing the puppy's food, gorging on it even if we are too slow in picking it up(which a toddler and puppy can be distracting at times). I am praying that the goodness of this raw protein helps her with energy while curbing the insatiable appetite.
And yes! Always lots of new pics! He is just too dang cute to not many say shepherd due to coloring but that is all I see. I don't see any other physical features from them. I will measure his height as I swear he looks taller though he is not gaining more than 3lbs a week.
I'm attaching a video, hope it works. He is a really good pup and a great addition to our family**

[video=vimeo;129943906]https://vimeo.com/129943906[/video]

 

[BAMCB]

Holy cow! They loved it! I had to contain them as I was not expecting Sonny to run to the carpet and chew a bony part. And Ava not dare leave her bowl unattended hahaha

 

[Oscar'sMom]

Glad to hear that they love it! What did you start with for first few meals?

 

[TricAP]

Holy cow! They loved it! I had to contain them as I was not expecting Sonny to run to the carpet and chew a bony part. And Ava not dare leave her bowl unattended hahaha

Isn't that awesome!

We've been feeding RAW about 6 months now and our boxer and chi still get so excited they turn in circles at meal times! Our EM will guard the kitchen when he knows I'm putting their meals together -with a hurry up lean on the back of my legs if he think I'm taking too long.

The Chi is pretty much toothless so I pulverize a bit of bone if I notice her poo's being too dark. But for an older dog that has had health issues and been a finicky eater her entire life it an amazing change! Glad to hear you've made the switch and I'm sure your critters will thrive.

My only caution would be careful with how much skin off the chickens you give to start with. None of our dogs can tolerate very much - just too rich.

Keep us updates how it's going.

 

[BAMCB]

I started with chicken but realized my 5 whole organic chicken does not last long when you are removing 90% of the bones! I have chicken necks and backs but that is too much bone for now. How long to keep with only chicken? I just bought an abundant supply of heart, liver, pork neck bones, saw scrap and a sack of beef bones. While I know it is too soon to feed all this, could I add in a small amount of the saw scrap to help stretch out my chicken? I should add that we have had no vomiting or straining to poo. The first day Ava had some mucus in her stool while Sonny's was normal. Second day Ava had a whitish stool but today is normal. Yesterday Sonny had a small amount of mucus and it was dark but today is normal. I think they are adjusting well. I have always given my dogs raw pork bones and the organs(when we had them) for treats so maybe Ava is good at processing already? They both have had a small amount of organ meat with no runs. Input would be awesome! We have a ton of pork from our pig and now these beef hearts and liver, when can I add in a bit with the chicken to start introducing?

Here are some pics, as we know we all like lol

Only $30 for all in the pic, is that good?

 

[BAMCB]

Ava's last weigh in was for her dental on Monday June 1st. I took both dogs in for a weigh in today(4 days on raw) and she is down 3 oz! Not sure if that is water weight but I'll take it! Haha

 

[angelbears]

How many pounds of heart did you get. Currently, heart is running 2.00 a pound here. From the pic looks like you got at least 15 pounds of heart. So, I would say great deal. Careful with beef bone, they are teeth breakers. I don't feed any beef bones. I have heard of a few people feeding beef neck but that is about it as far as beef bone meals. I do give beef ribs for fun treats but as soon as I hear teeth on bone I take it away.

Why are you removing the chicken from the bone? You could add a little saw scrap, if the poop is runny cut back, try again in a few days. Whitish poop means too much bone, no big deal every once in a while but you don't want it all the time. Look into chicken hearts. I get those for under a dollar a pound.

One of the great things about feeding raw is you shouldn't have to do anymore dentals. Which if you subtract that cost from the cost of feeding raw it makes it a little more reasonable.

 

[BAMCB]

The poops have turned to a tan brown and are formed so I'm guessing the saw scrap is fine and amount of bone is leveling out. I was removing most the bone because A. I was scared of choking since I had never given one before and B. Was under the impression to feed mostly chicken meat with a few smaller bones to start(I did make some yummy bone broth though Last night I gave Sonny a whole chicken thigh(skin removed) and he ate it like a champ. I could hear him crunching the bone and he was taking his time. I am much more comfortable now and he had another this morning.
I have a local organic free range farmer offering turkey necks, pig feet and tongue and lamb heart for $2lb(which I feel is a bit over priced) but I am wanting to get to know him a bit more as I think he is a perfect source for green tripe(which seems to make the butchers and this farmer a bit nervous lol I know some of you feed necks and some don't. I seems to me the ones who do not do so because their dogs do not chew them. Sonny and Ava are too small for that, so it should be good, right? And tongue is considered a muscle meat? Also, I think pigs feet are good for chewing on? Sorry for all the questions but I would love to give as much variety as possible for all the benefits each can offer.

 

[angelbears]

I love some turkey necks, some are thick, I don't like those. I like the long skinny kind. During Thanksgiving I buy 10 plus turkeys to put up while they are cheap. I pay .25 to .50 a pound. I usually buy Thanksgiving day or the day after. I don't like most turkey bones. I mainly debone it and use it for pure meat. Necks, butts and some wings(with the tips cut) are the only turkey bones I use.

Personally, I found neck bones to be hard, like weight barring bones. For me it wasn't worth the risk. I also had Filas, not the kind of dogs that you run to the vet and have look in their mouth. LOL... I wasn't too concerned about choking but breaking a tooth.

Tongue is a muscle meat, pigs feet I use for chew treats. I would think that $2 is a good price for the tongue and heart, both are muscle meats and not a great price for feet and necks. I pay $3 a pound for green tripe, if you can get it for less I would jump all over it. Around here green tripe is like chicken noodle soup. Whenever, I have a dog that doesn't seem to feel well I will feed a meal of tripe. Seems to help. I wouldn't feed more than a couple in a row. Too much can loosen up their poop.

Most people think I am to cautious but hey, that is who I am. LOL I do believe believe that you have to have variety, as much as you can afford. My four main proteins are chicken, beef, pork and turkey. Most of my bone comes from chicken, so they don't get meat only chicken meals. We feed twice a day with the morning meal being all meat and the afternoon meal being bone-in. Which comes pretty close to the 80/20 rule. Every 5 to 6 days I will feed a boneless meal in the afternoon.

 

[BAMCB]

I am quite the opposite and run at full force when starting something new! Lol wish I was a bit more patient, I notice things seem to work out a bit better for me when I am.
If I give a hog's foot, does that replace a meal? Or limit the chew time and still feed a regular meal later.
Some of these turkey necks are huge! Surprised the heck out of me hahaha
I have some really good resources near me to afford a good variety so I am super fortunate. I really like the idea of chicken bones being the only whole bone. I believe the saw scraps also have ground up bone and cartilage in it. I am heading to the butcher tomorrow and will see if they have an estimate of percentages of bone in it. I feel better about feeding them the smaller chicken bones or ground up bones even better.
I've heard that heart, all though a muscle meat, can be super rich, is tongue the same? Or can I use it a bit more like a meat protein and not so sparingly.
Thanks again for all the info and guidance, we really appreciate it and my dogs really really appreciate it

 

[angelbears]

Thankfully, Debra is a lot like you. She is not afraid of doing or trying anything. We kind of balance each other out.

As far as the hog's foot. It's really up to you and mainly the dog. 2 of my dogs got fat and I had to start watching what they ate. My 2 others could eat as much as they wanted and never seemed to get too big. Just keep an eye on their poop, if it is whitish then you are feeding too much bone and you will want to cut back on bony treats.

Cartilage is fantastic for the joints, it's great that it is in the saw scrap. Another great treat is chicken feet, lots of cartilage. Cartilage is high in glucosamine.

I don't think tongue is nearly as rich as heart. Other than chicken bones the other bone I don't mind feeding is pork ribs much softer than beef. If you can get them for a decent price it will give you a little variety. Our Kroger has them this week for 1.29 a pound. Sweet breads and pancreas are good organs too.

Do you hunt or know of any hunters? They are an excellent source for free goodies. Just be aware there are a different set of rules for feeding wild game. I really don't know much about it, don't know any hunters.

You are more than welcome. I'm delighted to try and help. I'm not an expert though. So, if something doesn't seem right do some checking around. Just remember that when feeding raw your eyes are your best friend. Runny poop add bone, whitish poop add meat. If they start to look fat cut back, add more if they are looking thin. If there coat starts looking dingy make sure they are getting the right amount of organs. Remember, only 5% should be liver, the other 5% any of the other organs. Your dogs are so lucky that you are willing to do this. Please keep us posted and feel free to ask as many questions as you want.

 

[cj-sharpy]

If you like the idea of chicken have you though about rabbit? They are classed as a pest (at least they are here in UK) so farmers actually pay guys to control them, those guys then keep and sell on the rabbits they kill cheap as chips. Lots of people feed with jackets on and I think im right in saying they are pretty close to balanced ratio wise.
If you can find them (local hunting sites on Facebook are a good source) always ask how they are killed. using bird, a ferret, dogs or netting is fine but OBV if they are poisoned or gassed you don't want them

 

[BAMCB]

I have a friend checking into a source but I think I may have a difficult time if the rabbit is whole(fur and all).

 

[BAMCB]

I just noticed this today and I'm a bit worried. Its been hot and humid so walks are limited to after kids bedtimes and not very long. His raw diet has caused a huge weight gain this week, 3.6 lbs!! I'm a bit panicked. He has a vet check up a week from Thursday but I am thinking to get him in this week. Input?

 

[angelbears]

I've never dealt with what you are showing in your pictures. You may want to start a new thread, people who are not feeding raw probably are not looking at this thread. I think I have seen some threads about this.

 

[BAMCB]

Thank you. I have an appt with our vet on Thursday but will definitely start a new thread. I was hesitant after starting 3 so close together lol