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Not so Melo (little long)

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Pretty eyes but he can be a real jerky jerk. I've been digging through various behavior posts here for days and while I have found some suggestions and answers..maybe it's time to post on my own.

Melo is 14 weeks now and enrolled in puppy class. We have two-ish problems with him right now: excitability and the resulting barking and biting. I firmly believed that proper training would mean never needing a harness or special collar but now I am starting to think i need one of the two... It is very important to me to get Melo on the right path now before he weighs more than I do. He gets very excited when other dogs are nearby and pulls and lunges and barks. If we are on a trail or in a park just walking he is fine, but in puppy class and at the vet he wont shut up and stop pulling. We (me and the trainer) try to distract him with treats and toys but they are only temporary. He is too young for the dog park so he hasn't had any doggy play since he came home at 12 weeks. The trainer is now suggesting I get a front lead harness in order to prevent damage to his neck and help me control him. Would buying a harness be the official sign I am failing at training him? :( Right now when he pulls I stop and wait but he doesn't seem to be dissuaded.

The biting. There are lots and lots and lots of posts on stopping puppy biting but I haven't been able to get a clear definition of "play" vs "aggression" and how to handle it differently. Melo does not care if I want to remove his toys or a chew, when he is playing fetch or we are sitting on the floor with him r if we are on the couch and he wants attention he uses his mouth but is learning to do it gently...the problem: when riled up he bites in what I interpret as a mean way. Examples: I took him to a field to practice recall and focus techniques from this video: [video=youtube;nLo8YP4-D8Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLo8YP4-D8Y[/video]

We played fetch for a little bit but then he started to get sassy..chewing on the long leash he was on, snapping at my hand when i removed it from his mouth, attacking the grass ?>.< and ripping it out in chunks and throwing it around...I told him no and removed the big clod from his mouth and he started trying to bite my hand..HARD bites, like how dare you tell me what to do kind of bites. Similarly, on a dif day I grabbed his collar to bring him away from an area we are training him to stay away form and he kept trying to whirl around and bite me hard. Is this play or aggression? Maybe I am telling him "no" in ways that are creating this...but what else do I do?? The earlier mentioned dog excitement is another time he will turn and bite the leash or bite my hand if I have grabbed his collar or tried to touch him.
 

karennj

Well-Known Member
Aggression in a 14 week old pup would be really rare. All pups get excited and bark, growl and bite. Puppy bites are hard and they hurt. He has not learned good bite inhibition yet.

Let me try and dissect your post.

"Melo is 14 weeks now and enrolled in puppy class. We have two-ish problems with him right now: excitability and the resulting barking and biting. I firmly believed that proper training would mean never needing a harness or special collar but now I am starting to think i need one of the two... It is very important to me to get Melo on the right path now before he weighs more than I do. He gets very excited when other dogs are nearby and pulls and lunges and barks. If we are on a trail or in a park just walking he is fine, but in puppy class and at the vet he wont shut up and stop pulling. We (me and the trainer) try to distract him with treats and toys but they are only temporary. He is too young for the dog park so he hasn't had any doggy play since he came home at 12 weeks. The trainer is now suggesting I get a front lead harness in order to prevent damage to his neck and help me control him. Would buying a harness be the official sign I am failing at training him? :( Right now when he pulls I stop and wait but he doesn't seem to be dissuaded."

Have you done any training at home? Puppy classes can be great but I feel like foundation training in non-distracting environments should occur first and you work your way up to distractions (puppy class). If you cannot keep the attention of your dog with treats or toys when the trigger for the excitement is around (other dogs), than you are too close to the trigger or pushing him too fast. Your trainer needs to back him up or slow down the training. You cannot take a dog with no foundation work and put them right in front of their trigger and hope they behave. Being excited by other dogs is completely normal however barking and lunging is not and that needs to be controlled right away as he in reinforcing bad behaviors every time it occurs. If your trainer is not able to identify this and work him up to his trigger properly I would think about dropping out of puppy class and getting a trainer to work with you one on one in private lessons. If you stay and every time he is around dogs he is barking and lunging you are making this problem a lot worse. Right now it is just excitement but if it is allowed to continue it could lead to frustration which opens possibilities for aggression. He needs foundation work and you need to get him to pay attention to you when out vs. the other dogs. A good trainer can show you how to do this properly and build up to the trigger.

The biting. There are lots and lots and lots of posts on stopping puppy biting but I haven't been able to get a clear definition of "play" vs "aggression" and how to handle it differently.

It probably is not aggression. Even if it was the fix for biting for aggression vs. excitement is the same. You have to change the behavior to change the emotions. A dog that is overly excited needs skills/foundation to occupy his mind. So basically you have to work on foundation skills to focus and calm the dog. See a trend here? A puppy getting overly excited is normal and mouthing is normal. It does hurt, it can break skin and it can rip clothes. All normal. The trainer you use to help you with the dog excitement will be able to help you with this issues as well. You need to control the chaos. When he gets too worked up he needs a refocus. Doing obedience commands, some games of find it, grabbing a toy and playing fetch or even a time out to change what is going on in his mind. Teaching a place/mat command would be excellent for this issue. He gets too worked up and you send him to his mat to calm down. You learn from the experience and try to watch for signals and refocus him earlier next time so he does not get into that state.

"We played fetch for a little bit but then he started to get sassy..chewing on the long leash he was on, snapping at my hand when i removed it from his mouth, attacking the grass ?>.< and ripping it out in chunks and throwing it around..."

This could be a couple of different things....
He could have gotten too excited to the point that he loses his mind and makes bad choices. He could have gotten bored with fetch and looking for something else to do, he wanted more attention, etc.
Fixes -
-Run him through some obedience commands to get control of him and get him to calm down. Give him something to do to focus his mind. He can't be bad and good at the same time. Switch which mode he is in.
-Throw down the towel, AKA the mat, and send him to his mat to cool down for a minute.
-Turn around and ignore him until he tires of the lack of attention and once he stops immediately praise and give him something to do.


I told him no and removed the big clod from his mouth and he started trying to bite my hand..HARD bites, like how dare you tell me what to do kind of bites. Similarly, on a dif day I grabbed his collar to bring him away from an area we are training him to stay away form and he kept trying to whirl around and bite me hard."


This could have been over excitement or frustration. You have to remember he is a puppy. Think of it in relation to a toddler. They absolutely lose their minds sometimes for no reason. This is when refocusing him is key. Touching a overly excited dog can cause redirection which is probably what happened here. He took all that focus he was using on the leash and turned it on you. Instead of touching him when he is excited it would be better to refocus him on something else. I NEVER grab my dog by the collar unless I HAVE to. If your training him he should be on leash. You should never have to grab his collar when he is in an excited state. I actually have this little mini leash hanging from Bear's collar that he wears all the time. It allows me to grab him if needed without grabbing his collar. A lot of dogs don't like it and it is almost a natural reaction for them to mouth when you do it. When he is super excited grab his leash and put him in a time out. Use the leash to direct him.

Lastly. is he getting enough physical exercise and mental stimulation? This is SOOOOO important for a young dog. Mental games and training will tire out that brain and make him less excitable.
 
Thank you so much for the in depth response. Right now he is averaging 2 walks a day but we've been keeping them pretty simple 15 min around the block..maybe he is ready for more, we were just concerned about over working him. He also accompanies me on micro adventures during the day to various stores which tire him out pretty good. But I think some structure to the activity would help him and more brain challenges. As for puppy class, we do a lot of work at home and he does OK in home. The pulling and barking still happens if he sees another dog while we are outside to potty, sometimes even if he sees people who've noticed him and are talking about how cute/w/e he is and he senses their attention. The trainer in class seems to think by week 6 (we are on 4) he will be sitting nicely like the other two dogs in class but I doubt her and you have confirmed it, so I will see if we can do private classes instead.
 

AZ Boerboel

Well-Known Member
Using Tools does not make you a bad trainer. Using tools incorrectly does.
There is nothing wrong with using a harness, prong collar or other training tools so long as they are used in the proper timing, at proper age, and with proper consistency.

At 14 weeks I wouldn't be concerned about real aggression. At that age it is just being overexcited and not knowing how hard he is biting you. Just stay consistent with "No Bite" and ending any play immediately when he does bite and he'll learn. For a short time ours would sound extremely ferocious and would bite really hard when playing. It was just her learning her voice and not knowing her strength for a bit.
Make sure you don't over exercise him either, mastiffs grow slow and you don't want to cause injury by pushing to hard. It isn't all about physical energy and burning it off through exercise, there's also a lot of mental energy that needs burning off that a simple walk won't do.
Keep with a couple of short walks and mix in more game exercises like hide and seek, or hiding toys/treats and making him work for them by following a scent trail. That and mixing in obedience work with all other types of exercise.
 

season

Well-Known Member
Leerburg Dog Training | The Ground Work to Becoming Your Puppy's Pack Leader

I introduced Solo to his prong the day I brought him home. Puppy classes won't establish your leadership in the house. Your dog needs believable corrections. Praise is great, but not if it's not earned. Right now it sounds like your pup is training you. Exercise, discipline and lastly affection. Work on things at home....that will be invaluable to you and your dog as he is still trying to figure out what he can and can't do. Get a leash for in the house. Use a crate.
 

Tess

Well-Known Member
Our puppy, Tessa (16 weeks), started acting up a few weeks ago too, doing the same thing with leash biting and hand biting if we told her no. So, she lost all freedom again. She went back to having a leash on in the house, so we could quickly give corrections if needed (without having to grab her collar). She's had a prong collar since about 10 weeks. When she bites the leash on walks, we immediately stop and make her do some basic obedience before continuing. This has eliminated the leash biting almost entirely. If she gets bossy, any play time is over. No advice on the lunging/barking as Tessa is pretty non-reactive to other dogs.
 

season

Well-Known Member
The lunging and barking could be corrected the same way u use any prong collar correction. You need to be ahead of the game. Don't wait for the dog to lunge and bark to make corrections....it's too late. You have to pay attention to potential triggers. If your dog starts to pull or gets out of their calm zone a quick correction with the prong will snap them back. Prongs are a great tool if used correctly and they aren't hard to use. They are more safe than any collar out their in my opinion.

Once again, corrections need to be believable. Some dogs need more than others. Example: Like I've said, I've used a prong with Solo since I got him home....came in handy during training in the house....now he only uses it when we go out in public. We were going into PetSmart to get something....we hadn't been there in awhile so Solo was pretty amped getting out of the car. I got him next to me and he continued with his unacceptable excitement so I gave a him a snap on the prong. First one wasn't believable to him I guess cause he wasnt calm yet. So I gave him another correction, this one with a little more to it. He gave a quick yelp, and was back to calm. The second one was believable. No more excited, bratty behavior after that.
 
Leerburg Dog Training | The Ground Work to Becoming Your Puppy's Pack Leader

I introduced Solo to his prong the day I brought him home. Puppy cl$#@! won't establish your leadership in the house. Your dog needs believable corrections. Praise is great, but not if it's not earned. Right now it sounds like your pup is training you. Exercise, discipline and lastly affection. Work on things at home....that will be invaluable to you and your dog as he is still trying to figure out what he can and can't do. Get a leash for in the house. Use a crate.

He does have a crate which he sleeps in during the night and when I have to leave for a few hours during the day, and for the most part (not when he wants to bark >.< or be tantrum-y) he listens and redirects when he hears me say NO in the house. I may invest in a prong collar and one of those short hand leashes for him in the home. Just going to have to watch some videos and read up to make sure I'm using it correctly. The bitey thing is getting more manageable at home since we have started using the time out. We don't let him get to the real angry stage, we watch for signs and scoot him off to nap it out early...just gotta figure out what to do for the public tantrums (prong time i guess)
 

Tess

Well-Known Member
Our trainer sold is on the prong/pinch collar. He cited several studies of choke chains vs prongs. In the studies, they autopsied the dogs after their death, and the every dog that had a choke chain used showed damage to the trachea and the surrounding muscles. You are actually choking the dog...cutting off the airway to get their attention. The prong collar, while it looks cruel, works superficially. It pinches the subcutaneous skin around the neck, correcting the dog with a "bite". None of the dogs that were autopsied had any damage to their neck muscles or trachea with the use of a prong collar. Overall, a much safer correctional tool.
 

season

Well-Known Member
Do people prefer the prong collar for corrections over a simple cinch collar (metal links or otherwise)?

Prongs are much safer...the others put pressure on the front of the neck when pulling etc. Prongs equalize the pressure around the whole neck.
 

season

Well-Known Member
I would also start working on a "Place" command. I don't use it as a "time out" I use it whenever I want. It's a great way to teach your dog impulse control, independence etc.

[video=youtube;omg5DVPWIWo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omg5DVPWIWo[/video]
 

season

Well-Known Member
Sean at Good Dog Training and Jeff Gellman at Solid K9 Training (I'll post his vid on place command) are two great trainers that have a lot of "how to" vids for free.

[video=youtube;OIGq_5r0DeE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE[/video]