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REestablishing dominance

Waffles

Well-Known Member
Hello,

I am new to posting, but I have been reading all your posts since before I got my English Mastiff. Her name is Waffles. Waffles is about 4.5 months old right now. I met her when she was 7 weeks and brought her home a little after 8 weeks.
When she was smaller and would get out of hand with playing too crazy, I would hold her down (not hurting her at all), but enough until she calms down. She always knew I was the boss. Lately, She has been really testing me. She is getting much bigger and now she is learning to get out my hold. She is starting to back talk me now, too. Before, she was much more obedient.
I am only 5feet tall. I can still hold her down most of the time , but at this point I have to straddle her for a min until she calms down. She only does this when she gets too excited when playing. I try to throw everything I could think of so she could redirect her playful biting like a million different toys, but she must really like the taste of my skin =\. I even try to ignore her by walking away, but she'll jump me from behind or start biting the backs of my legs.

She is in basic obedience class. She knows NO or OFF about 80% of the time when we are NOT playing (we are still working on it). When shes playing it seems all knowledge of training goes out the door. I even try to get her to sit or down stay which she normally does really well 99% of the time, but not when shes already got the crazies in her butt.

I know she is testing my dominance. Mostly, she still knows I am the boss. When she is being bad, I tell her OFF the couch. She gets off, but now she talks back while doing it. Then she will sit on the floor by the couch and talk back until she calms down. I blame a lot of this on my boyfriend because he used to play very rough with her in the beginning until I had to "train" him- and now he sees how it effects me and feels bad, but she has already learned the bad behavior.

I am pulling my hair with this. She is over powering me and I am not sure what to do. I can tell she is losing interest in listening to me when I am firm with her, like with her recall, she went from 80% to now 40% even with treats.

:( any advice?

I was going to post a picture of Waffles but I am not sure how?
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
Personally I decided not to try and physically overpower Kryten simply because I knew he would be stronger than me eventually. I used the 3 things that are important to him as a way to teach him who is in charge, treats, freedom to choose and attention. In order to get my attention and/or the freedom to choose where he wanted to lay down he had to do what I said first. Good behavior got rewarded with treats. I believe everything is about how well trained a dog is, especially a giant because you physically cannot make them do anything. They must agree or at least choose to comply when told to do something.
If you do a search for NILIF (nothing in life is free) I have found it to be a great help to resort back to a stricter level of NILIF. Once they understand what let's them get their way that's what they do, just make sure it the same way you want it to be.
 

Bailey's Mom

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
NILF is best. Use search feature ago top of Page, you should find lots of threads re this.

I'm only 5'4 (I've shrunk), and I have a CC who is 98 lbs (just checked) and growing, and moving her physically is damn near impossible because she has four-wheel drive and I don't, but, she really does want me happy....she wants that, and the love, and the cuddling more than anything else. She loves to rough house, but I'm older and I don't encourage it. When she play fights with the kids or my husband, the humans get hurt. One thing's for sure (Note: not advocating this!), when I blow my stack, everyone cools their jets, kids, dog, husband.

Have you tried your big voice? (Not blowing your stack, just domination with the voice.) Your dog desires your respect and your love, but it also must learn when You Mean It (stopping undesirable behaviour.) If you speak with authority, hold your body erect, and present a clear and unambiguous command AND hold your ground, she'll start to understand when you mean business. Otherwise, she'll just walk all over you.

To tell the truth, I've never understood trying to dominate anyone or anything physically. At my height, I'd lose. I only win because she wants my attention, affection, food, and inclusion in activities. Basically N.I.L.F.
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure she's testing your dominance... at 4.5 months, she's still young for making the leap to being 'top boss'... she still does as you ask (even if complaining about it) but I don't think you've gotten her to respect you, yet.... thus, the complaining about having to do what you say.

I'm going to read way in between the lines here (so, hopefully not totally wrong), but I'm going to suggest that you might not be following through and finishing your dominance exercises (I don't like calling them that, either... ) - and she's learning that she just needs to wait you out, and she can still "win" the game.

The 'holding down' events need to always end with something positive, so she 'gets' that you are trying to calm her down and provide her with something just as nice and rewarding as what ever it was that got her all excited in the first place. With Denna, to calm her down, we started with a hug from behind (dog in a sit position) - and then a chest rub (outlined in the Monks of New Skete book). I can still sit behind her (me now in a chair) and rub her chest, and she'll sit there and calmly enjoy the touch. It worked wonders for us keeping her calm during puppy classes. If you try to hold her down by physical force alone - she's going to eventually learn she can beat you. If you hold her with nice, calm energy and mentally keep her there... she'll learn to respect your touch more.

At this point, she knows you and you know her... if you give her a disappointed "eh-eh" sound, and then the "angry Mom" look... that should be enough.
If it isn't and she still runs around like a toddler on a tantrum... if it were me... I'd send her outside and shut the door behind her. Let her run it off alone... That normally stopped Denna in her tracks, because if we didn't go outside to witness the tantrum, it just wasn't fun anymore. (we don't allow zoomies in the house - they get sent outside where there's room)

When you can get her calm - by touch/hug/hold or by sound/stare - make sure you hold her there for a good 3-5 seconds or more. Then give her another command - like "go to your rug" or "lay down" - (help direct her if needed, since she's still learning) and then giver her some nice, calm praise, "gooooood girl". And end it there... or have her 'shake it off' and then do a few doggie-push-ups (sit-down-sit-down-sit-down) for some treats, or have a game of tug in the yard, and get things on a happier note again.

That she's still biting doesn't surprise me - Denna didn't give that up until about 6 or 7 months old... much longer than I remember our past puppies doing that, but she's really soft with her mouth, now... so keep being consistent... all play STOPS when a tooth or a nail touches skin. If she takes a toy, play can resume, if not. Game over.

And... on the recall... try not to ever be "firm" on that one... save that for when you need it. At this point the "come" game should be just that - a fun game. Make her want to come to you - every time. Never use "come" to deliver a punishment of any kind (including ending play at puppy class)... "come" always means "get a treat and a pat on the head!" (and if I quietly slip the leash on while your here... well... that was just a one-time coincidence.) :) Denna and I practice "come" all the time - just "come" - get a treat, and then "go play" some more... I basically have her coming to check in with me frequently (and she'll get a treat when she comes even if I didn't ask her to). It becomes just a habit, muscle memory... to come when called, then.

Good job on training the BF! They are often much harder to train than puppies.
When you apply the rules consistently (even new ones), the puppy will understand pretty quickly what's expected.
Keep us posted on how things go!
And... if you've been reading, you know we always like to see pictures. :)
 

neona

Well-Known Member
(we don't allow zoomies in the house - they get sent outside where there's room)

Denna and I practice "come" all the time - just "come" - get a treat, and then "go play" some more... I basically have her coming to check in with me frequently (and she'll get a treat when she comes even if I didn't ask her to). It becomes just a habit, muscle memory... to come when called, then.

:)

Hope you don't mind my liberal cutting of your post! Dante is pretty good with come but I'm going to do as you suggest. I like this idea! I'm terrible with training and need one small, concrete thing to do at a time.

We also do not allow exuberant play, wrestling, running, or anything of the sort inside. Outside only. Joshua G (I think? ) recommended a training article for me recently that hopefully someone can link to called back to basics. Very helpful. I think it's part of/similar to the concept of nothing is free.

Good luck!


Sent from my phone, please ignore typos.
 

joshuagough

Well-Known Member
First off welcome & congrats on the first post!

What your trying to reference using the word dominate, is pack structure.. I believe. Largely different because your a human, and your goal is similar in being the "pack leader" but your goal shouldn't be to "dominate" the dog.

I'd highly encourage you to never hold a puppy or dog down (to include straddling them to keep them still) in a effort to teach them anything, that won't get you anywhere and your going to create more issues than you'll ever solve. If you have a puppy biting at your hands redirecting them on to a toy or simply correcting them at your dogs age is a much better option.

Have her collar on and a leash, use your "No" command.. if she does not stop use your leash to give her a correction. You goal is to have her stop what she's doing and focus on you, not inflict pain. I'm telling you to use this correction because biting you is incorrect pack behavior on her part, at her age I would have zero tolerance for that, if she's been taught that's not acceptable. By 15 weeks that should be under control with a puppy IMO. The only exception to this would be a pup I'm building drive in, which your not.. with them I'd continue to redirect.

I rough house with all my dogs very heavily but there's a big difference because they know the meaning of settle down and when the game is over. You're pup is still young and likely from your post doesn't have a good understanding of expectations of acceptable behavior.

I would caution against the advice of "sounding like you mean it", you're goal should be when a command is given, the dog follow the command.. period, no exceptions. There should never be a time when a dog has a choice to disobey a command as that implies with nagging a dog with "sit,sit,sit,SIT!!!" then the dog not complying till the 4th time. That's bad practice, and setting yourself and the dog up to fail. I would also never give the dog a command in anger or out of frustration, this leads to all sorts of issues.

When you say this: "When shes playing it seems all knowledge of training goes out the door." it's because you've amped her up and she's in drive.. with a puppy that's not been taught any different you don't just snap your fingers and pull them out of drive. They are in it to win it and that's fine but biting you should still be corrected as unacceptable behavior.

As for your recall, grab you a long rope or what in the training world is called a long line. Put her collar and long line on inside your home (before you get her all worked up playing) and spend 3-5 mins just working on a recall.. have some treats in your pocket, call her (use a high pitch voice) or backing up often will lure pups.. when she gets to you praise her like she just gave you a billion dollars (use a word to mark she did good.. I say "yes" and hand her a treat"). If she chooses not to come, aid her with your line, just tug on it a bit and entice her to come (not dragging her) I want to just get her attention on me.. then use my voice to bring her in. Keep using the line if she's being stubborn to get one or two steps then say good girl or something to that effect as she starts to come.

As for the link mentioned: Leerburg Dog Training | The Groundwork to Establishing Pack Structure with Adult Dogs this is some what suited for adult dogs.. but can be applied to a pup just the same.

Here's a link for many aspects of pup training: Leerburg Dog Training | Puppy Training Articles

Good luck to you and Waffles!












Hello,

I am new to posting, but I have been reading all your posts since before I got my English Mastiff. Her name is Waffles. Waffles is about 4.5 months old right now. I met her when she was 7 weeks and brought her home a little after 8 weeks.
When she was smaller and would get out of hand with playing too crazy, I would hold her down (not hurting her at all), but enough until she calms down. She always knew I was the boss. Lately, She has been really testing me. She is getting much bigger and now she is learning to get out my hold. She is starting to back talk me now, too. Before, she was much more obedient.
I am only 5feet tall. I can still hold her down most of the time , but at this point I have to straddle her for a min until she calms down. She only does this when she gets too excited when playing. I try to throw everything I could think of so she could redirect her playful biting like a million different toys, but she must really like the taste of my skin =\. I even try to ignore her by walking away, but she'll jump me from behind or start biting the backs of my legs.

She is in basic obedience class. She knows NO or OFF about 80% of the time when we are NOT playing (we are still working on it). When shes playing it seems all knowledge of training goes out the door. I even try to get her to sit or down stay which she normally does really well 99% of the time, but not when shes already got the crazies in her butt.

I know she is testing my dominance. Mostly, she still knows I am the boss. When she is being bad, I tell her OFF the couch. She gets off, but now she talks back while doing it. Then she will sit on the floor by the couch and talk back until she calms down. I blame a lot of this on my boyfriend because he used to play very rough with her in the beginning until I had to "train" him- and now he sees how it effects me and feels bad, but she has already learned the bad behavior.

I am pulling my hair with this. She is over powering me and I am not sure what to do. I can tell she is losing interest in listening to me when I am firm with her, like with her recall, she went from 80% to now 40% even with treats.

:( any advice?

I was going to post a picture of Waffles but I am not sure how?
 
Last edited:

musicdeb

Well-Known Member
Welcome aboard~ Great advice from all~ I agree, 4.5 month old pup is being a pup and needs guidance and training. Teach the pup what you want them to do and reward with motivational treats. Patience is key.
 

Marco

Well-Known Member
goodluck waffles hope things turn around.

thanks josh for the tips :) mine is 7 mths and im actively training. ive learned its not a one time and that isnit they learn. ur tips help tweak some of the things I currently do.
 

joshuagough

Well-Known Member
Your welcome. Keep at it, a well trained dog is a product of consistent coaching and effort, broken down in to manageable steps.
 

krisx

Well-Known Member
i think you could use this.
http://kalaharirr.tripod.com/longdown.html

i did it with my puppy. now he lays down on its own and i walk around, sit on a chair, lay on the bed...i thought him the command where he lays down with his head on the ground between his paws. i do it every time i want to calm him down.

this article is all about teaching it to hold still because it has to, not because you're holding it. it could come useful once your dog becomes to big to hold down.

about other stuff regarding your slipping on authority/dominance scale. more corrections, less treats. and once he does it right lots of praise.
 

season

Well-Known Member
Great advice from those above....I would add that you don't have to be big/tall in order to be a pack leader...it's all about the energy you project to your dog. Leadership comes from within....dogs aren't going to judge you on your size.
 

musicdeb

Well-Known Member
i think you could use this.
http://kalaharirr.tripod.com/longdown.html

i did it with my puppy. now he lays down on its own and i walk around, sit on a chair, lay on the bed...i thought him the command where he lays down with his head on the ground between his paws. i do it every time i want to calm him down.

this article is all about teaching it to hold still because it has to, not because you're holding it. it could come useful once your dog becomes to big to hold down.

about other stuff regarding your slipping on authority/dominance scale. more corrections, less treats. and once he does it right lots of praise.
I'm not too sure about this technique to hold a dog down is a good technique for a mastiff. Mastiffs are very independent, stubborn and strong. This type of hold down COULD lead to fear aggression depending on how you hold the pup down.
 

krisx

Well-Known Member
that's just it, you don't hold him down, read the whole thing. its a well known technique called long down and later long sit. but if you're a all positive purist, i understand you'll have your doubts.

you do it every day for 30min.
1st week i was sitting next to him and every time he tried to get up, i put him down. did it gently, but i did push him back down. no holding. it should be his choice if he gets up or not. and so for 30min. so he got it there will be no getting up until i say so. then release. he got it fast.
the idea is that he holds its self down.

2nd week
i was close but not next to him.

now i do my stuff and he does it all by its self.
 

Waffles

Well-Known Member
You all have been VERY helpful. Sorry my reply is so late, I wanted to try your suggestions first before replying.. I have taken different steps from each of you and she has already been showing so much improvement. I did used to say "sit.. sit.. I SAID sit.." wayyy too many times and I did not realize this was wrong on my end. I do not ever have to hold her down anymore YAY :). I simply either remove myself (if I can) or I put her in her crate until she calms down if she does not listen to my command right away, but a lot of the time she will listen to my commands the first time now :). She has really learned to better respect me and doesn't really ever back talk to me anymore... but she now moves on to my boyfriend and back talks him all the time haha, but she (and my boyfriend) are still learning.

and I tried to attach a picture of Waffles.. I hope it worked!

Thanks again everyone!
 

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Ash1985

Active Member
Love the picture! She is beautiful but has TUDE written all over her face! Doesn't anyone use bitter apple spray for mouthing anymore?
 

Waffles

Well-Known Member
I tried bitter apple on my skin and it didn't work at all for her mouthing.. but I put it on the garbage can and it works really well.
Has anyone tried something spicy to stop mouthing?