To Prong or Not to Prong

[Siloh]

That is the question. Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against my loose leash troubles, and by opposing, end them.

So the Prince of Denmark (6 months) seems to me to have hit a milestone in training, which is that on walks it is *absolutely clear* to him what I expect.

The trouble is, keeping him under threshold is not always possible in my neighborhood, which is a small business district (tiny downtown). He is GOOD with most any distraction, including children, people who do not approach/address him, skateboards, motorcycles, and full-grown dogs (I don't know what his deal is with puppies). But when he breaks from my side for a distraction, it's often 0-60, and this is in cases where there are multiple high level distractions appearing all at once or something very sudden, like a bunch of people exiting a shop as we walk by (although many would rather wait till we pass...). He also requires an unfortunately high level of correction for some stubborn sniffing behavior, which is fairly understandable as it is very difficult not to come across some trace of dropped food in this neighborhood.

Leerburg mentions that a prong is appropriate for puppies 3 months and above who require a level 7 correction on a flat collar. I WAS going to get a nylon and chain martingale. Now I'm wondering if this isn't just the time to skip the middle man and introduce a prong instead using the dead ring and see how it performs?

I worry that in the perhaps 1 in 3 chance when Hamlet and I go for a walk and a level 7+ correction becomes necessary that I am really not doing favors to his young neck/back/trachea. I know that the martingale would also be good for this, so I'm not sure if I'm jumping the gun to simply gain control faster using a more aggressive tool.

However, I am confident that the rules of our walks are really clear to Hamlet. He even heels when off leash in an open area if I give the follow command (albeit no distractions are present besides my hound). Reading up on the prong, it seems trainers' biggest issue with it is that it curbs undesirable behavior without first building understanding of the expected behavior. Hamlet has a very solid understanding of expected behavior. Not once in 8 weeks on our twice daily walks have we been lenient in loose leash training using commands, cues, rewards.

Again, though, this makes me wonder if I'm going for too aggressive a tool for a dog who does not present a problem most of the time. I do want something to "snap him out of it" though when he requires such a high intensity correction. I am using food in these situations, so it is not like I don't have a different form of motivation available to him.

We are also, of course, at 6 months, and it is showing. He has become quite the independent thinker even when well exercised and stimulated and occasionally seems to decide that I can piss right off with whatever I'm instructing.

Thoughts? Experiences?


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[Hector]

What is this sniffing behavior that you are correcting him harshly for?

Again - prong collar is just another training tool - it's up to you if you want to use it or not. You won't know until you try it out. What I would try is a shoulder check. I seen this in one of the dvds and it works quite well actually even for a dog like mine. I'd thought my dog would redirect or crumble because he's a weird one, but no - it worked well. This is how you do it: dog is distracted, you say his name - no response - dog is fixated on something. You shorten the lead and have it taut - get up next to him and use your knee and give him a quick push on the shoulder. After the dog is like "whoa what's going on?", you take off going the opposite direction and at the same time tugging him along with a firm tug and hold until he budges (usually it doesn't take much after the surprise shoulder check). You run and make funny noises (words like hey, yay, yay) and say his name excitedly, push him a bit and engage him with some pushes or pats. It takes a bit of practice at first, but that's one way to snap him out of it and redirect his attention.

Clear rules meaning heel means strict heel? Do you ever release him from heel? I have times when I need a heel so heel means HEEL or you will get corrected and then times when he is released and can do whatever he wants (pull, sniff, pee) and if I need him to not pull - I would reset his position by turning and walking faster and if he's being wild - then he loses his freedom and has to stick to heel. I give my dogs chances to make right decisions and if they don't, then there will be consequences.

 

[Siloh]

The sniffing behavior I mentioned occurs around streets where there are a lot of eateries and traffic. There are a lot of inconsiderate litterers here. Nut shells, spilled alcohol and soft drinks, food packaging (bags, cups, little cardboard whatchacallits from fast food), and other food-related debris is understandably very tempting, sometimes more tempting than what I have on me, or I don't catch the intensity of a sniff/don't see visible debris and "suddenly" a casual sniff becomes a mission for whatever tasty scent is smeared on the sidewalk. To clarify, a level 7 correction doesn't include any kind of yelling. I'd say the highest level correction I give him is a bump in front of the back legs coupled with a (pretty light) sideways pop if food and verbal commands have absolutely no effect on dissuading him from a sidewalk food object.

I use "heeling" incorrectly here in the sense that I mean about 18 inches from my leg wherein his front legs are more or less aligned with mine (if his back legs pass mine I consider this breaking from my side, but typically he requires just a noise to pace himself correctly again).

Hamlet has a "break" command for sniffing/breaking from a "heel" (used loosely), and he has a "potty" command as well. His follow command should bring him to my side for a loose-leash walk (again, ~18inches).

When walking downtown, where we do our twice daily walks, he is working. Everything about the ritual of beginning these walks cues him that this is Work Time. We have play time, we go out to other environments for a more casual on-leash exploits (accompanied by the beagle), we of course have car rides, potty walks in the backyard, and we have off leash time in open areas 1-2 times a week. We are just beginning to play fetch and tug in a large grassy unfenced backyard with a drag line, which he is super good at so far. However, walking downtown he is on the job, and his job is to practice good leash manners, which includes doing a sit-stay while I sip a coffee outside or while I talk to friends/neighbors who do not engage him (we're training the whole neighborhood... My cafe now all know no touch, no talk, no eye contact ).

... Is this like way too young for those expectations? I've always worried we may be placing very high standards on a young pup, but he has broadly responded very well to this daily exercise. He also wears a backpack stuffed with plastic bags (like 4 on each side) when I think his joints have been subjected to exceptionally little stress for short walks, and he seems to really enjoy his backpack time and definitely seems to feel he has more purpose in his walk/training sessions.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[MiraOCeti]

It has worked for us. I didn't start using it until Oscar was two, I wish I had gotten over myself and used it sooner, rather than going through several harnesses and head collars. As Hector said above, its a tool, not substitute for training. I still need to do what Hector describes as the reset, even with the prong because Oscar still needs reminding to walk at heal sometimes. I use an XL prong on him so it is more of a gentle reminder than a harsher correction a smaller gauge prong would elicit. Above all, for me, the prong offers is a feeling of security and the confidence I have control if needed.

 

[Siloh]

I use an XL prong on him so it is more of a gentle reminder than a harsher correction a smaller gauge prong would elicit. Above all, for me, the prong offers is a feeling of security and the confidence I have control if needed.

This is sort of what is confusing my feelings. What I want is a tool that can offer a low-level correction safely while giving me confidence that I can effectively counter a lunge (see "Another Silly People Rant" for Hamlet lunging at a child who was insanely close to him) without exerting a whole lot of force.

Hamlet is a pretty soft dog. He doesn't require heavy-handed corrections. But his flat collar is not a good conduit for correction when I need it the most. Really, only in these extreme situations am I counting on a leash/collar to control him. Otherwise I can control him verbally very well or with very light taps (as in taking two fingers and literally just touching his bum for a sit when he seems to have mysteriously lost his hearing at an intersection, or tapping his side to maintain his focus on me when there is a particularly distracting stimulus approaching us and he is in a sit-stay.

My greatest worry is for his trachea, but if a prong collar can offer me more effective results with significantly less power exerted on the leash than a martingale, it seems like a good candidate. I'm of the perspective that if it is possible to *never* have a dog experience sustained tension, it is easier to train not to pull in all contexts. This simply isn't achievable with the flat collar at this stage considering the level of distraction we can randomly encounter. A good example is attempting to walk half a block from my car to my cafe and encountering a car show with every distraction imaginable. Sure, I could have driven home, crated him, and returned, but this is the kind of situation where using sustained tension and relying on a leash for control was necessary 30% of the half-block walk to maintain control (even using every trick I know and stopping constantly to regain focus), whereas using a gentle correction 5 times with a prong coupled with my other methods might have made all the difference.

I don't know. I've never used a prong, only a choke collar on my German shepherd when we trained him a million years ago. But I often see the sentiment expressed "We waited to use the prong forever and now I wish I hadn't," so at 6 months I'm starting to wonder which route to go and if a chain/nylon martingale is really only a precursor to trying a prong later.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[Siloh]

FYI, here are the products I am looking at implementing now that I feel he has a solid foundation in what behavior I expect and will reward him for. I'm on the fence about whether or not to get a 2ft or 18" traffic lead.

Amazon.com : Punk Hollow - Leather Dog Traffic Lead - Leather Dog Training Lead - Short Leash 18 in X 1in (Amish Made) : Pet Leashes : Pet Supplies

Pawmark Nylon Martingale Chain with Quick Snap Release, Nylon Martingale Collars

Leerburg | Leerburg Chrome Prong Collars

The dual grip--seems like something to wait a few months on
BLOCKY DOGS: Heavy-Duty Products for Heavy-Duty Dogs


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[Hector]

Okay - every time I say heel, I don't mean a competition heel nor do I care for that with my dogs. I just mean a simple regular walk heel (by your side). Have you tried proofing the leave it and have set ups in your house and yard that reflect the environments you stroll through? Have you tried maybe giving him an "ah ah ah" warning? Does he respond to verbal cues? What about some leash pressure (light tugs) when you see something in sight that you know he's going to go after? Maybe if you practice some setups at home - it may not be so enticing to him outside. A prong collar is not going to hurt him and you always have the option not to use it once you've tried it.

You just have to use your best judgment on the tool and the way you are using it and the outcome of his behavior/response. You may find yourself only needing to flick the leash a bit to get the same response as a level 7 correction on a flat collar. In that case, the prong is more effective and less damaging on the dog and less stressful on the handler.

 

[MiraOCeti]

Oscar is also a soft dog, I explained what he was like and what I needed it for to Cindy at Leerburg and she recommend the XL prong for him. I didn't get the HS prong from them though. I bought mine off ebay from the UK, as I couldn't find the exact model I wanted in the US, its stainless steel with a leash style snap to connect.

I can't recommend the Blocky Dog's Dual Grip enough, even with a prong, it is great to have a collar with a grip. I love Blocky Dog leashes also, I have both the Lock-n-Lead (which incorporates a traffic leash) and the 3 way adjustable which I use most often for our walks.

 

[rcnd82]

Siloh:

I am a convert. As background, you should read my post about visiting Lowe's and Starbucks in the training sub-forum.

I have a 10 month old, 119 lb BM puppy ("Percy") that I have always trained with a martingale collar. I am 6'1" 185 lbs and do not think I lack for physical strength but this dog is strong! I have (generally) consistently used all the tricks to avoid pulling i.e. change direction, distraction, sitting, etc. Despite the use of any and all methods, Percy would on occasion pull or jump straight into the collar to see people or dogs putting alot of pressure on his neck.

I went to the selective use of a prong a couple of weeks ago. As you can see from my post in my visit to Lowe's and Starbucks, it worked very well with little effort and less apparent damage to my dog. My hope is to move away from the prong in a month or so but if I don't that is ok for now. I also use a Mekuti harness which works very well for certain applications.

 

[ruthcatrin]

IF you go with a prong I prefer the Herm Sprenger with the quick release: Herm Sprenger Steel Force Quick-Release Pinch Collars.

And a post a did a while back on how to fit and intro a prong: I need some ideas - Mastiff Forum

Another thought, how long is the leash and how much room on it do you give him before you correct him? Something I discovered (and my husband is rediscovering) with Apollo, by adding a 12" traffic loop to his collar (looping the longer lead through it) and holding onto the shorter lead with the hand closest to the dog, we reduced his pulling and other such "bad behavior while walking" by an astronomical amount, prong collar or martingale. I don't know if its psychological or not, but it works!

 

[Siloh]

IF you go with a prong I prefer the Herm Sprenger with the quick release: Herm Sprenger Steel Force Quick-Release Pinch Collars.

And a post a did a while back on how to fit and intro a prong: I need some ideas - Mastiff Forum

Another thought, how long is the leash and how much room on it do you give him before you correct him? Something I discovered (and my husband is rediscovering) with Apollo, by adding a 12" traffic loop to his collar (looping the longer lead through it) and holding onto the shorter lead with the hand closest to the dog, we reduced his pulling and other such "bad behavior while walking" by an astronomical amount, prong collar or martingale. I don't know if its psychological or not, but it works!

I give 18"-2' depending on how tired he is an the stimulation. The lead is 4ft, and when given the break command or potty command he can go its full length, plus I will acquiesce in general to where he wants to wander.

I agree that the response to a shortened lead is almost magical. I used to take the leash out or hold it loosely between my two hands when he was being extra special obedient and maintaining an excellent working-walk type pace (steady + purposeful with excellent traveling posture, no sniffing or scouting), but he seemed to sense the extra slack and will adjust himself so he is JUST at the end where there is still slack but very little. He is very good about bumping the end of the lead and adjusting appropriately to give that little bit of slack (you know, when screaming people and other dogs and puppies aren't around). That's why I'm unsure about whether to get a 2' or an 18" traffic lead. I kind of figure he is going to continue growing taller, though, so 18" seems practical.

Rcnd, your post was sort of the last thing to fall into place that made me decide to create this thread. I have been turning these questions around in my mind for weeks, though.
"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[ruthcatrin]

We went shorter as Apollo grew and I'm glad of it. The 4ft lead is perfect for when he's allowed to sniff, and the 12" traffic loop is perfect to keep him close. Remember, he's going to get taller, putting the leash closer and closer to you, resulting in MORE slack in the (longer) leash. So, to me, shorter makes much more sense. (the big exception, we use 50ft training leads in the unfenced portion of our property)

 

[Siloh]

Okay, I've read on the forum, I've read good and bad reviews of using prongs, and I've watched about two hours' worth of videos demonstrating the prong. At this point, I'm wondering why the prong would ever be a BAD thing in educated hands with a dog who has a foundation in walking etiquette.

It appears the use of a prong actually promotes a clearer, calmer correction than a flat collar or even a martingale (unless your dog is like super soft I'd guess), and it seems to decrease both handler and animal stress surrounding the necessity for a correction.

Considering Hamlet has relatively few instances where he is over threshold and requires physical correction, I think this is the tool for us while we continue to work on leash manners in highly distracting situations.

Does/has anyone used rubber tips on the prongs, and does it assist in preventing the metal from being too abrasive?

Ruth, the quick release collar looks awesome, but some people say it has come apart easily. I have to wonder if these reviews have even a semblance of control though, since Ham is very easy to manage 85% of the time and not super difficult even when he is being challenging. Also, I'd like to use this in conjunction with the Blocky Dogs dual grip so that in anticipated situations I can just grab that (some people said it came apart by grabbing where the quick release is, which sounds dumb anyway). Is it your experience that this collar will easily disengage, or is there a greater user responsibility error that would cause this?


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[Siloh]

PostScript question:

It seems like the large would offer a less aggressive correction but is said to be quite heavy. Hamlet is only 6 months (today!!! Yay Hambone!) and not as big as a mastiff pup. I'm thinking I should go with a medium for sizing and weight? His neck doesn't quite fill out a 12" collar at the right position (behind the ears/jaw).


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[MiraOCeti]

I would go with a medium, the XL is very, very heavy, so I would assume the large would be quite heavy too.

I don't use the rubber tips on the prong. Oscar's collar has a release, but the kind used on leashes, like this:

It has never come undone, I haven't found this style available in the US though and I did look when I was researching the various different styles.

 

[DennasMom]

I'd go straight to a prong - it sounds like you are doing amazing with Hamlet!!

The prong will give you a quicker communication line than the flat or martingale - i.e. he'll be able to feel a much lighter tension on the leash.
The Herm type should have rounded prongs, so should be less abrasive, even without the rubber tips.

We used a "puppy" prong with our 60lb thin-skinned bulldog/boxer mix - it was very lightweight, and still got the point across. He did, however, end up bending some of the prongs, and at times did pull out of the collar due to the bent pieces... we kept him on a second collar with the prong due to that issue (he was a one-way runner with zero recall) - plus the tags were all on the other collar too. For a while, I put tags on a clippy loop, so I could move those from collar to collar, as needed.

Be sure to get extra links when you get the collar, so you can adjust the size as he grows, too.

I will add... Denna is also a sensitive girl, and I decide to try a prong to see if it would remove that last bit of leash pulling... the moment I put it on her, she flopped to the ground and WOULD NOT MOVE. I could have drug her home on that collar, and she would just roll on her side. The moment I removed it and put her back on the flat collar, she HOPPED up and was ready to walk again. So... no prong for us. I use a nylon slip lead, just to remove the potential for her slipping backwards out of the flat collar (which she had done before). It's quiet, and doesn't get the "ooo, scary, mean dog" looks that the chains and prongs get..

 

[Hector]

When you use a prong, you should always have it hooked up to a back up collar. In my opinion - 6 months is a little too young for corrections and it's better to focus on technique rather than rely on corrections. Hammie is not very big is he? I would go with medium prongs.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I've never had my prongs pop open. Using a backup collar is a good idea though, you can even get connectors specifically for that purpose. I agree, get the medium and get extra links, and I've never used the rubber tips.

 

[Siloh]

I'd go straight to a prong - it sounds like you are doing amazing with Hamlet!!

The prong will give you a quicker communication line than the flat or martingale - i.e. he'll be able to feel a much lighter tension on the leash.
The Herm type should have rounded prongs, so should be less abrasive, even without the rubber tips.

We used a "puppy" prong with our 60lb thin-skinned bulldog/boxer mix - it was very lightweight, and still got the point across. He did, however, end up bending some of the prongs, and at times did pull out of the collar due to the bent pieces... we kept him on a second collar with the prong due to that issue (he was a one-way runner with zero recall) - plus the tags were all on the other collar too. For a while, I put tags on a clippy loop, so I could move those from collar to collar, as needed.

Be sure to get extra links when you get the collar, so you can adjust the size as he grows, too.

I will add... Denna is also a sensitive girl, and I decide to try a prong to see if it would remove that last bit of leash pulling... the moment I put it on her, she flopped to the ground and WOULD NOT MOVE. I could have drug her home on that collar, and she would just roll on her side. The moment I removed it and put her back on the flat collar, she HOPPED up and was ready to walk again. So... no prong for us. I use a nylon slip lead, just to remove the potential for her slipping backwards out of the flat collar (which she had done before). It's quiet, and doesn't get the "ooo, scary, mean dog" looks that the chains and prongs get..

I'm hoping he won't shut down. It's yelling, really, that shuts him down, which we try to refrain from obviously (sometimes it just comes out--the stuff he gets into! WTH? Sitting with sunglasses in his mouth with a nylabone next to him).

Today he wore his backpack and did AMAZINGLY well with people walking by, until two business women came by and decided they needed the entire sidewalk and brushed against Hamlet while he was to the side in a sit he'd been maintaining for like 20 mins. He lunged to greet and nearly got mud all over the woman's pantsuit. She was forgiving. When he has his backpack on and is being a total model citizen, people tend to think he is a proofed working dog and unfortunately will feel safe walking close enough to bump him, whereas I doubt they would be so laze-fair if he didn't have his backpack and was acting out of control to begin with. This is a lot of why I want this product.

Also Tina, my SO was walking Hamlet the other night and had him in a sit while some lady's little yappers were going NUTS. The woman kept trying to ask about Hamlet but he ignored her to focus on Ham. Finally she said, "Let's go, babies, time to get away from the big mean dog!" Yeah, people are gonna judge him no matter WHAT he's doing or wearing, it seems. People just amaze me.

Linda, Hammie isn't big to YOU people. I already feel like he is a live-in Shetland pony.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[Hector]

Linda, Hammie isn't big to YOU people. I already feel like he is a live-in Shetland pony.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

Hey lol nothing wrong with being "not too big". Hector is only 126lbs and I think he's done. I have to tell you something funny. I let him chase some birds today on leash and he usually slows down when they all fly away, but there was one that was slow to leave and he zoned in on it and he was heading toward the street after it. I put on my brakes and slammed into a parked car lmao.