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To Prong or Not to Prong

Siloh

Well-Known Member
I also am worried that if I begin to prematurely step down intensity or take the intensity down too far, it will cause him to ignore me when the prong itself is not on.

Another thought I had was to put on the prong, use something (like a carabiner) to clip the live and dead ring together to ensure it stays open, and clip the leash to a different collar and see how he responds.

I do think it will take at least 10 days for these habits to start really sinking in, though.

Also, I feel like Hamlet's neck has grown overnight, and now I may already need to add a prong. However, once he walks with it, it still slides to near the middle of his neck. So maybe I am paranoid about it getting too small? I feel like there should be just a smidge more give in the chain, and although I know it should be snug enough to stay up, it was trying to get on today. Opinions? I'll try the extra prong tomorrow to compare, but I'm worried it will slide toward the base of his neck.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
I also am worried that if I begin to prematurely step down intensity or take the intensity down too far, it will cause him to ignore me when the prong itself is not on.

Another thought I had was to put on the prong, use something (like a carabiner) to clip the live and dead ring together to ensure it stays open, and clip the leash to a different collar and see how he responds.

I do think it will take at least 10 days for these habits to start really sinking in, though.

Also, I feel like Hamlet's neck has grown overnight, and now I may already need to add a prong. However, once he walks with it, it still slides to near the middle of his neck. So maybe I am paranoid about it getting too small? I feel like there should be just a smidge more give in the chain, and although I know it should be snug enough to stay up, it was trying to get on today. Opinions? I'll try the extra prong tomorrow to compare, but I'm worried it will slide toward the base of his neck.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

That's one thing I don't like about the prong on loose skin dogs. I can tighten the prong where I can't fit my fingers and it still manages to slide down Hector's neck. One shake and it's out of place and it's annoying to constantly readjust the collar and when you want to give a correction, it's not in the right spot.

I am excited to see his progress.
 

Siloh

Well-Known Member
That's one thing I don't like about the prong on loose skin dogs. I can tighten the prong where I can't fit my fingers and it still manages to slide down Hector's neck. One shake and it's out of place and it's annoying to constantly readjust the collar and when you want to give a correction, it's not in the right spot.

I am excited to see his progress.

I tried to take video for you, but apparently I'm a crap dog handler when trying to work a camera. Plus he stays so close it's awkward to get a good shot while we're moving.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Honestly, go upwards of 6 weeks with the prong. I know it seems like a long time. But you want those habits solid before you start screwing with them. Mess withh it to early and you could screw his progress.
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
I tried to take video for you, but apparently I'm a crap dog handler when trying to work a camera. Plus he stays so close it's awkward to get a good shot while we're moving.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

lol i know it's hard
 

Siloh

Well-Known Member
Okay so there has been a change. I wasn't sure whether or not it was a change or just an experiment so I didn't report back to you all :)

I always have a bait bag on me on every outing exceeding 10 min with Ham. Recently, I can't remember for what, I felt it necessary to whip out a piece of kibble during our walk. What I found afterward was that he was checking in with me more, wondering if I would cue him. Wanting to know how he would react, I began cuing him maybe 3-5 times per 20-30 min walk for particularly challenging maneuvers. What I have found is that he responds even better with the prong knowing that MAYBE he will be cued but maybe he won't. He has almost completely stopped protesting decisions he disagrees with and checks in much more than he was with only the prong, but he is still way, way more mentally relaxed than he was with a flat collar and commands.

BUT I worry that I'm kind of teasing him or confusing him by only cuing a few times during the walk. I'm sort of hoping that by making when I cue count he gets the picture that something exceptional was done, whereas just walking politely is a given.

Also, for the past week or so I've added an additional prong, but today it's coming out. It's way too loose--not fitted properly at all. Seriously, every time I leave the house with it slipping down his neck I wonder if someone who knows what they're doing is going to just tip me off that I'm doing it wrong. Snug it is. I'm also not getting the same efficacy with the extra space, which is to be expected.

The only thing is, no matter how loose it is, I CANNOT spin it around like Sean from a The Good Dog. He is just so droopy under the neck that I'm sure I'm going to catch his skin in the prongs. But I feel like I'm doing it wrong! Maybe I'm just chicken and I could in fact spin it if I really gave it a go, but every time I want to try I feel those wrinkles obstructing the prongs and stop for fear of hurting him.

Hamlet and I have been taking our message to others who are curious about the prong collar. I have to say, people respond much much better when he has his backpack and prong, because 80+ percent of passers by think the backpack is a service dog vest. Occasionally people see the prong and the dog and I can tell they think he is vicious (closed body posture, exaggerated moving way out of the way, nasty facial expressions), but I just have to laugh at this! If they can't accept a brindle pit mix with a prong in a polite heel walking by, nothing I say will change their minds anyway.

OH SNAP! The most exciting part...

For the first time ever, I was able to walk Hamlet and my beagle/basset, Annie, together around town for the first time using the prong. Ham also wore his backpack. I do not give them structured walks together because Annie is not trained to heel (she will choose to heel after her initial burst of energy/sniffing/excitement, but not trained to heel) and Hamlet feeds off of her energy and becomes excited, trying to initiate play. Not so with the backpack plus prong! He was quite focused and frankly embarrassed Annie (our star dog) by being so good. I guess I should be proud--at just over 6.5 months Hamlet has been surpassing Annie's training left and right!

Go team Hanny and Amlet!


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
Okay so there has been a change. I wasn't sure whether or not it was a change or just an experiment so I didn't report back to you all :)

I always have a bait bag on me on every outing exceeding 10 min with Ham. Recently, I can't remember for what, I felt it necessary to whip out a piece of kibble during our walk. What I found afterward was that he was checking in with me more, wondering if I would cue him. Wanting to know how he would react, I began cuing him maybe 3-5 times per 20-30 min walk for particularly challenging maneuvers. What I have found is that he responds even better with the prong knowing that MAYBE he will be cued but maybe he won't. He has almost completely stopped protesting decisions he disagrees with and checks in much more than he was with only the prong, but he is still way, way more mentally relaxed than he was with a flat collar and commands.

BUT I worry that I'm kind of teasing him or confusing him by only cuing a few times during the walk. I'm sort of hoping that by making when I cue count he gets the picture that something exceptional was done, whereas just walking politely is a given.

Also, for the past week or so I've added an additional prong, but today it's coming out. It's way too loose--not fitted properly at all. Seriously, every time I leave the house with it slipping down his neck I wonder if someone who knows what they're doing is going to just tip me off that I'm doing it wrong. Snug it is. I'm also not getting the same efficacy with the extra space, which is to be expected.

The only thing is, no matter how loose it is, I CANNOT spin it around like Sean from a The Good Dog. He is just so droopy under the neck that I'm sure I'm going to catch his skin in the prongs. But I feel like I'm doing it wrong! Maybe I'm just chicken and I could in fact spin it if I really gave it a go, but every time I want to try I feel those wrinkles obstructing the prongs and stop for fear of hurting him.

Hamlet and I have been taking our message to others who are curious about the prong collar. I have to say, people respond much much better when he has his backpack and prong, because 80+ percent of passers by think the backpack is a service dog vest. Occasionally people see the prong and the dog and I can tell they think he is vicious (closed body posture, exaggerated moving way out of the way, nasty facial expressions), but I just have to laugh at this! If they can't accept a brindle pit mix with a prong in a polite heel walking by, nothing I say will change their minds anyway.

OH SNAP! The most exciting part...

For the first time ever, I was able to walk Hamlet and my beagle/basset, Annie, together around town for the first time using the prong. Ham also wore his backpack. I do not give them structured walks together because Annie is not trained to heel (she will choose to heel after her initial burst of energy/sniffing/excitement, but not trained to heel) and Hamlet feeds off of her energy and becomes excited, trying to initiate play. Not so with the backpack plus prong! He was quite focused and frankly embarrassed Annie (our star dog) by being so good. I guess I should be proud--at just over 6.5 months Hamlet has been surpassing Annie's training left and right!

Go team Hanny and Amlet!


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

The treating is to build a behavior. If he is already checking in without being cued, then just acknowledge it with praise and do away with treats.

There are prong covers that you can buy on etsy.

Maybe Annie needs a prong herself :p.

Keep up with the great progress! It's great he is doing so well at such a young age!
 

gilles

Well-Known Member
get a good quality prog where the tips are rounded and smooth and cannot hurt him but only exert some pressure
 

Siloh

Well-Known Member
get a good quality prog where the tips are rounded and smooth and cannot hurt him but only exert some pressure

I went with the Herm Sprenger quick release from Gun Dog Supply linked by Ruth. Not only am I totally happy with the quality of the collar and it's release function, I was super pleased with Gun Dog Supply's customer service and fast shipping. It was here in less than 48 hours.

Unfortunately, the product came with a little catalogue, and now my fianc* wants a dummy launcher (used for retrievers). ;)


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark
 

Th0r

Well-Known Member
So what size is everyone using?
Thor is pretty good on the leash with his martingale and does not drag but he does sometimes stop to go sideways off the path to sniff.
However my wife tried walking him after a few months and he wasn't behaving well.
I picked up a Top Paw one that was on sale at Petsmart today. 22" x 40mm and had to take off 2 links. It looked too thick and bulky. He walked great on it though.
I then came home and ordered a 21" x 30mm Herm Sprenger quick release one from Amazon with a set of extra links.

Sent from my Nexus 5
 

Iymala

Well-Known Member
We use the 25" Herm Sprenger for both Betty and Claymore, and I love them. I love the center plate that makes both sides symmetric rather than the cheaper collars that have all the prongs going one way. I also ordered 3 extra links. They are only a few months over a year and the 25" fits perfectly, heck, Betty's is on the cusp of needing another link soon, but she is a hoss.
 

Siloh

Well-Known Member
I use the medium one, which I'm guessing is the gauge you ordered. I have no idea what the maximum length is, though. I didn't want to go with the large because of how heavy it is and the sizing between links, but the larger gauges apparently afford gentler corrections. Sean from The Good Dog Way emphatically explains that he almost always uses a medium. I can see why; I could probably get away with using the medium on my 23# hound if I wanted.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark
 

Kujo

Well-Known Member
bwahahahah! I've been called out on my Instagram page for using a Prong Collar, and told how horrible they are and should be banned! .... funny thing is ... this really just makes me feel like I'm officially part of the "prong club" lol having to deal with stupid just comes with the territory I suppose

just had to share with some like-minded folk :)
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
bwahahahah! I've been called out on my Instagram page for using a Prong Collar, and told how horrible they are and should be banned! .... funny thing is ... this really just makes me feel like I'm officially part of the "prong club" lol having to deal with stupid just comes with the territory I suppose

just had to share with some like-minded folk :)

When someone posts that picture of the dog with the holes in his neck show'em a picture of a dog who's just had his embedded flat collar removed, WAY more gruesome, same cause.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
I use the medium one, which I'm guessing is the gauge you ordered. I have no idea what the maximum length is, though. I didn't want to go with the large because of how heavy it is and the sizing between links, but the larger gauges apparently afford gentler corrections. Sean from The Good Dog Way emphatically explains that he almost always uses a medium. I can see why; I could probably get away with using the medium on my 23# hound if I wanted.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

We got the large for Apollo, kinda wish I'd gotten the medium honestly, I think the smaller links would have worked better, though in the over all scheme of things the large is fine.
 

Iymala

Well-Known Member
We got the large for Apollo, kinda wish I'd gotten the medium honestly, I think the smaller links would have worked better, though in the over all scheme of things the large is fine.

Yeah, I am in the same boat. I had always heard the smaller gauges were actually more effective, but I would have had to order a ridiculous amount of extra prongs to make them fit my beasties heads as they grew.

And I have trained with both a prong and "shock" collar in the past (different dogs) and I have never had a dog that was anything but excited, tail wagging and hopping up and down ready to go when I touched either collar. Why? Because I always made it a good experience and it meant that we were going out and working.
 

Siloh

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I am in the same boat. I had always heard the smaller gauges were actually more effective, but I would have had to order a ridiculous amount of extra prongs to make them fit my beasties heads as they grew.

And I have trained with both a prong and "shock" collar in the past (different dogs) and I have never had a dog that was anything but excited, tail wagging and hopping up and down ready to go when I touched either collar. Why? Because I always made it a good experience and it meant that we were going out and working.

Yes, apparently the larger gauges offer a less intense correction than the smaller ones, which makes sense. A small one may need a ton of links, but you could size it SO PERFECTLY. I just think Hamlet is soft enough that a medium is sufficient; I would probably consider a large down the line if I thought it wasn't too heavy and could be accurately sized to his adult neck.

Hamlet doesn't resent his prong at all. He sees it a lot like his backpack, though I'd say his love for the backpack trumps all. I even say before I get him ready to go, "Hamlet, you want to go to work? It's time to work!" as I prepare his and my stuff. He's very good now about sticking his head right through the pack and holding out his wrinkly neck for the prong. :)


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark
 

Th0r

Well-Known Member
Got my Herm Sprenger medium 30mm from Amazon today. It's the bi-directional one with the centre plate.
Upon closer inspection I have to say the build quality at the joints look crappier than the Top Paw made in Taiwan one I bought from Petsmart. And the quick release is not as smooth either!
I'm still keeping the Herm Sprenger one cause it's smaller and lighter but I really was expecting more from a made in Germany product!

Sent from my Nexus 5
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
That sucks, my Sprenger is definetly better. The only time I ever came close to having a collar failure was with the cheap one from Petco, the quick release didn't grab somehow. Where the Sprenger has never given me an issue.
 

Siloh

Well-Known Member
Just an update on life with the prong.

Hamlet is now super good. I really don't worry about going out with him and Annie together anymore, but I do always do one walk with just him to zone in on his manners. I now give him about 2ft on the lead because he has been so good about regulating his speed to be at my side. Sniffing/diving for gross stuff people drop is still an issue, but he is MUCH improved. Today Hamlet and Annie walked by two men and an off-lead pit bull on one of the main roads downtown and they were fine; I didn't have to put Ham in a sit or anything to focus or use treats. If anything, Annie wanting badly to sniff the other dog was a bad influence on Hamlet's very good manners.

HOWEVER as a word of caution to prong users: Hamlet is currently in between prong sizes. There's just no getting around it until he properly grows into the new prong. If I take it out it is unconscionably tight. This absolutely has had a dangerous effect. Today I walked Hamlet and the chi together for the first time. Hamlet was doing awesome, then at the end of the walk the chi (who is not quite 2 yet so very exuberant still himself) burst forward in a rush and Hamlet got a major bout of puppy zoomies watching his big brother. Well, five terrifying seconds later of tangled leashes and me releasing the chi's lead, Hamlet wrapped himself around my legs and hit the end of his lead HARD. He yelped, and when I took the prong off to check him he had a notable red spot where one of the prongs had hit him. I felt terrible. If his prong were properly fitted, the FIRST time he felt the prong tighten during the onset of his zoomies would have stopped him from continuing. Instead, he was getting level 4 or 5 corrections from lightly hitting the end of the lead while I got the chi's lead off, then received an abrupt level 10 when he hit the end of the lead with serious and sudden force.

I felt so bad for the little guy. He put himself in a sit when he yelped and gave me this hurt look. For now I'm going to have to put the quick release on the second or third jeweled link to compensate for how low the collar hangs with the additional prong, even though the tightening mechanism is much less smooth because it throws the loop off kilter. This will give a better fit and keep the prong off of where he was poked further down on his neck.

Size correctly as possible. It makes a huge difference and, although it does look a bit harsh and seems quite snug, it's the safest way to use the collar in my opinion (when all other precautions are taken as well).


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark