Training

[kingstephonhayden]

I have a yr old presa and she is the hardest headed damn thing in the world... I've well trained her in the basics, I've used a long leash to teach her to come, but she is still buckwild off the leash. How do you think I could best correct this type of behavior? I think the inconsistencies in what my family members demand and what i demand has made her develop some bad habits, but I'm thinking with her temperament, an e-collar is the only thing that is going to help me work the really big kinks out... She is great on leash and what not but I let her off leash, she is uncontrollable... I'm thinking professional structure and an e-collar are all that are going to correct my situation... What do you think???

 

[musicdeb]

Welcome aboard~ Yes, mastiffs are stubborn and independent. Have you contacted a trainer to assist you with the training? It sounds like she is confused because as you stated what family members do with her vs what you do with her.

What is her temperament like? How old is she? Give examples of what makes you think she needs an e collar. FYI: unless you have professional training with an e collar, it can cause more problems with a mastiff.

 

[NeSaxena]

Welcome aboard~ Yes, mastiffs are stubborn and independent. Have you contacted a trainer to assist you with the training? It sounds like she is confused because as you stated what family members do with her vs what you do with her.

What is her temperament like? How old is she? Give examples of what makes you think she needs an e collar. FYI: unless you have professional training with an e collar, it can cause more problems with a mastiff.

I agree! Do you know any trainers you could talk to?

Welcome to the board!

 

[kingstephonhayden]

Let me explain about the inconsistencies... The biggest problem I have, is that when I tell her to come from a long distance, she'll look at me and break off sometimes as if it were a game.. Playfully... Most of the time she'll come... It might take two calls though, but yeah, I can't let her off leash because she goes on a playful tear so often....

The difference between me and my family members is that when she is incorrect, I will go to her and say no and give her a slap on her head/muzzle and she'll immediately come to after correction and obey... My family members just let her get away with it, which is what I think fosters the bad habits of disobedience she'll have...

I just need some type of correction tool to where I could extinct those bad habits with correction from long distance... I've tried a long leash, I've tried it all and I though an e-collar would be the only thing..... I wouldn't use harsh correction with it, just enough voltage so she would know when i was trying to correct her. No I haven't been able to consult any trainers because I don't know any.... Do u guys know any trainer or have any tips for me from what I've described?

 

[Th0r]

You really want to slap a dog that is going to be over 100lbs?
Don't use "come" when you think there is a chance the dog may not come. If you do and he doesn't come, he'll learn that he doesn't have to come when he doesn't want to.
Use something else, like tapping, whistling or similar and if he does start coming to you, say "come" and praise him.

 

[musicdeb]

Hitting a mastiff can lead to more problems than you have at this time. Mastiffs have short snots, so you will cause damage when continuing to hit the muzzle.

You need to have more patience with the dog. Consistency in training with motivational treats goes a long way with training rather than fear-induced training, which is what you are looking for.

Tell family members to either do what you are doing (see above) or tell them to leave the dog alone.

Your presa is a year old and already into her true temperament which is probably already fear aggressive due to your hitting her.

You need to find a trainer who does positive reinforcement training to show you how it is done. Sounds like you want it to be a quick fix when in reality it takes months to train and consistent training throughout life of the dog. It's not a one time training session and you're done. Far from it.

Be aware, continuing to hit your dog will cause a lot more damage and behavior that you do not want to deal with or you may make the decision to put her down, which her behavior isn't her fault.

 

[kingstephonhayden]

Hitting a mastiff can lead to more problems than you have at this time. Mastiffs have short snots, so you will cause damage when continuing to hit the muzzle.

You need to have more patience with the dog. Consistency in training with motivational treats goes a long way with training rather than fear-induced training, which is what you are looking for.

Tell family members to either do what you are doing (see above) or tell them to leave the dog alone.

Your presa is a year old and already into her true temperament which is probably already fear aggressive due to your hitting her.

You need to find a trainer who does positive reinforcement training to show you how it is done. Sounds like you want it to be a quick fix when in reality it takes months to train and consistent training throughout life of the dog. It's not a one time training session and you're done. Far from it.

Be aware, continuing to hit your dog will cause a lot more damage and behavior that you do not want to deal with or you may make the decision to put her down, which her behavior isn't her fault.

My dog's obedience is like 7/10... It's not perfect but I don't really have total control over her and that bothers me...

On the leash she's IMMACULATE.. When she switched from a choke to a pinch she improved 10 fold so I think some type of hard correction is necessary??? She don't respect nothing else... I'd give her a 10/10 there

Off the leash I'd give her a 5-6/10... When she knows she doesn't have to do something she won't unless you get stern and correct her... Then she improves... She's a good dog, but I don't have that professional level of control that I've strived for...

Let me be clear about the slap... It isn't abusive or too hard... Just enough to let her know to come on... It's the last resort if I don't have her on a chain... I use positive reinforcement too, but if she gets too wild, how else am I supposed to reel her in or show displeasure with her.. She's big, tough and smart enough to play games on me... Do I just let her play me???. She's so tough and big my slap is more of a nudge than a pimp slap lol...

So here's what i do...

I tell her to come; she usually does but if its' one of her bad habit areas(on the stairs, in large open area), I'll do it a second time and if she won't I go give her a tap and tell her no and she complies.... Mind u, she only fails to come in those 2 instances and many times she does obey... Mainly on the stairs(I used a long leash and treats to break this habit for the most part), and ever since I started telling her no and tapping her, she's improved on the stairs and the bad habit of stalling and not coming is almost extinct... In the open area I don't have a tool to condition her to come on command

In the open areas, I've improved her stalling and marauding with a long leash and treats, but if I don't come down on her with some negative reinforcement she never improves.... When I get a little tough she complies IMMEDIATELY..... So that's why I said an e-collar because I'd have a tool to enforce discipline from a distance...

I've been reading the Koehler Method of training and was educated that some negative enforcement is needed with big tough dogs because of their temperament and dominant natures, and it usually works if I structure it right... I hear u guys though.. Like I said... if you know any trainers I can e-mail... Educate me

 

[DennasMom]

You might also check out the book "so, your dog's not Lassie".
It helps with some options on how to motivate independent, strong-willed dogs - i.e. those often labeled as "stubborn".

I think you might just need to find the right motivation - like, when she's off leash and you call her and she goes into "Game on!" mode... run AWAY from her and wave your arms in the air calling her name... I bet you 99.9% that she'll come running after you at full speed. Then when she gets to you, grab her collar praising her all the way, telling her what a great dog she was for catching you when you called her name. Beat her at her own game. HA!!

She's smart enough that she can learn to obey you, even when the other family members don't make her do stuff. She should know when you mean business. And... I'm guessing she does - and that's why she runs FROM you when off-leash - she knows she's going to get a slap instead of a treat because she hesitated and didn't go straight to you.

If she's not responding to "come"... you could use a new word and train that as a new command... i.e. "right here" or "front" are often used for different "come" commands. Then, your family can mis-use "come" as much as they want, and you can train "front" properly for her to understand what you want.

We do have some real trainers on the forum (I'm not one) - maybe they'll chime in or PM you with more info... let us know how it goes!

 

[Siloh]

Try looking up TrainingPositive on YouTube or visit their site (trainingpositive.com). It's an amazing source of tips on how to use positive reinforcement.

I've only slapped Hamlet a couple of times when he mouthed me and I wasn't paying attention and didn't see him in the vicinity. Since we have only used positive reinforcement (no consequences harder than a stern "No," quick leash correction, or a firm but gentle tap on his hindquarter area to snap him out of a distracted state), he was completely baffled these two times I accidentally smacked him. I don't think smacking him (or any dog) was really motivating... He was just totally confused.

I think of it this way: are you more into the idea of winning or not losing? If your boss tells you you are being considered for promotion if you can improve X, Y, and Z performances, are you more motivated than if your boss tells you your job security is in question if you don't improve X, Y, and Z?

Positive reinforcement has done even more for me and Hamlet's relationship than its proponents billed it for. The promise of reward for his obedience and focus has made it possible to put him into a working frame of mind in a second's notice without touching him. He has even improved in areas of training with no input from me, because if he wants anything in the world he knows an established recipe for success: calm, focused, giving eye contact, and following instructions. I used to hold his bowl until he sat and gave me calm eye contact (he is the youngest of our four and gets fed last, so all the dogs are chowing around him while he waits). Just last night we discovered we could put the bowl at our feet and he would give us the same distance and response until we slid the bowl to his feet with a release word ("Okay!").

Sorry for the diatribe, but I can't recommend positive reinforcement (or specifically I use "operant conditioning") enough.

There are some pros here who will probably give you more instruction and less heartfelt inspiration, but there you have it, my two cents (maybe twenty...).

PS I use the same cue as Tab from TrainingPositive ("Yes!"). I binge-watched a bunch of his videos and have found I exactly copy his tone of voice--both calm and jovial, consistent every time. It is so hard-wired into Hamlet now that he seems to get a little puppy high of calm happiness every time I say it. It is so ingrained that I accidentally said the word Yes while in conversation with someone in a very similar tone and he whipped around and sat for his treat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[musicdeb]

My dog's obedience is like 7/10... It's not perfect but I don't really have total control over her and that bothers me...

On the leash she's IMMACULATE.. When she switched from a choke to a pinch she improved 10 fold so I think some type of hard correction is necessary??? She don't respect nothing else... I'd give her a 10/10 there

Off the leash I'd give her a 5-6/10... When she knows she doesn't have to do something she won't unless you get stern and correct her... Then she improves... She's a good dog, but I don't have that professional level of control that I've strived for...

Let me be clear about the slap... It isn't abusive or too hard... Just enough to let her know to come on... It's the last resort if I don't have her on a chain... I use positive reinforcement too, but if she gets too wild, how else am I supposed to reel her in or show displeasure with her.. She's big, tough and smart enough to play games on me... Do I just let her play me???. She's so tough and big my slap is more of a nudge than a pimp slap lol...

So here's what i do...

I tell her to come; she usually does but if its' one of her bad habit areas(on the stairs, in large open area), I'll do it a second time and if she won't I go give her a tap and tell her no and she complies.... Mind u, she only fails to come in those 2 instances and many times she does obey... Mainly on the stairs(I used a long leash and treats to break this habit for the most part), and ever since I started telling her no and tapping her, she's improved on the stairs and the bad habit of stalling and not coming is almost extinct... In the open area I don't have a tool to condition her to come on command

In the open areas, I've improved her stalling and marauding with a long leash and treats, but if I don't come down on her with some negative reinforcement she never improves.... When I get a little tough she complies IMMEDIATELY..... So that's why I said an e-collar because I'd have a tool to enforce discipline from a distance...

I've been reading the Koehler Method of training and was educated that some negative enforcement is needed with big tough dogs because of their temperament and dominant natures, and it usually works if I structure it right... I hear u guys though.. Like I said... if you know any trainers I can e-mail... Educate me

You quoted: She's a good dog, but I don't have that professional level of control that I've strived for... My response: What professional level are you speaking of?

You quoted: I use positive reinforcement too, but if she gets too wild, how else am I supposed to reel her in or show displeasure with her.. My response: You reel her in with consistency in training and positive reinforcements. Negative reinforcement instill fears which can lead to fear aggression. You're dealing with a mastiff, they feel what emotions you have. Did you research mastiff before you adopted your girl?

You quoted: She's big, tough and smart enough to play games on me... Do I just let her play me???. She's so tough and big my slap is more of a nudge than a pimp slap lol... My response: Are you equating your dog to one of your human buddies? The dog play you? What does that mean?

You quoted: ever since I started telling her no and tapping her, she's improved on the stairs and the bad habit of stalling and not coming is almost extinct. My response: You are teaching her fear. If she doesn't do what you say, which would happen with consistency and positive reinforcement, then you tap/hit/slap her. You are teaching her that if she doesn't do it, she's going to receive pain. Please think about this. Suppose a person/child comes up to her and wants to pet her, they bring their hand up to pet her but she sees it as a correction (hit/slap/tap) and she bites them. What then? Do you beat the crap out of her for biting them? When in reality, that's what you have shown her what the hand towards the face means. When in reality, any person who walks up to a dog and pets them on top of the head without knowing the dog are idiots.

You quoted: In the open areas, I've improved her stalling and marauding with a long leash and treats, but if I don't come down on her with some negative reinforcement she never improves.... When I get a little tough she complies IMMEDIATELY My response: This is how you have trained her. She is responding to your training technique which is I'm boss and if you do not listen, I will inflict pain. If you had trained her from the beginning with positive reinforcement with no hitting, she would respond differently. It is up to you to change how she reacts to your training. She's only following your lead. Every dog when being trained, should be given the choice to respond to the command. If they do not respond appropriately within 20 seconds, then they are given a firm, stern "no" and taught to sit and wait for the next command. Training requires consistency and lots of patience.

You quoted: I've been reading the Koehler Method of training and was educated that some negative enforcement is needed with big tough dogs because of their temperament and dominant natures, and it usually works if I structure it right. My response: IMO, negative reinforcement can and usually does backfire, especially with a mastiff. You can get so much further in training with positive reinforcement with no pain inflicted to the dog.

You quoted: Like I said... if you know any trainers I can e-mail... Educate me My response: You sound like a pretty smart guy. Read what we have posted re: training your girl and take heed.

Bottom line: How your dog responds to training is up to you based on the method of training. It is your choice if you use positive reinforcement vs fear based training. How your girl reacts depends how you train her.

Mastiffs are stubborn and independent. They are guardian breeds and they can feel your frustration, anxiety and fear. Give your girl the opportunity to make a choice to respond to your command. A stern, calm "no" does the same trick as a hit/slap/tap but with better results. Consistency in training with motivational rewards with lots of patience is key to a trained mastiff.

How you accomplish these goals is totally up to you.

 

[Th0r]

Also remember to give them about 10 seconds or so to perform your command before repeating or correcting.

Sent from my Nexus 5

 

[musicdeb]

Good point, Th0r, I forgot to mention that.

 

[Th0r]

If I have time, I'll make a flow chart on how I perceive a mastiff's decision making process!

Sent from my Nexus 5

 

[alejandro]

I'm no xpert, just starting on my second Presa but IMO you need unless 3 years before you can fully trust them off leash, so be patient.

 

[Siloh]

If I have time, I'll make a flow chart on how I perceive a mastiff's decision making process!

Sent from my Nexus 5

PLEASE do this! That would be so great!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[irina]

A lot of good advice given. I just wanted to address one of your specific questions about controlling her when she gets wild. Ajax is a cane corso, but it sounds like he has a similar temperament to your girl. When he gets wild, we give him a stern no, stand up straight and tell him to sit or to down like you mean business. If we caught it early, he will down with no questions or some hesitation. If he has gone into a full on crazy mode, it is easier for him to sit first, which comes him down, and then he is given a down command. Of course he is praised when he listens. He has to keep a down stay for a few minutes until I know he is calm enough to be released. So here is a quick recipe you can try. You were given a lot of advice, it might take some time to digest and wrap your head around. This one you can try right away instead of hitting her.

 

[gamestaff]

you are in an area with some excellent professional trainers experienced with this breed available locally. get in touch with some of them.

 

[Bear44]

Koehler Method is great method for dog training when used properly. I would never rely on treat based training for a Mastiff but that is just me.

 

[Cyndnelson]

When is the dog allowed off leash? Is it 'play time'? The only time my EM is allowed off leash is at the dog park and that is his play time, so he usually doesn't come the first time I call him there - which is why I always carry treats with me... Call him, he hears the plastic bag, and zoom, he's by my side. I don't like relying on treats, but it gets the job done.

JMO - please never hit your dog. Even if they are little taps. You'll get so much more out of them with other methods.