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Walking question

joshuagough

Well-Known Member
Got cha, If he's only doing it when he see the other dogs doing something different (walking ahead or behind), apply the same method backing away from whichever direction he's wanting to pull.

If as your backing up he doesn't return to you, apply correction and use your recall. When you do get him to come (even if you have to aid him with the leash) praise him.

I have no problems walking him when I either take him out by himself or with Jiggers. The problems only arise when both dogs go out at the same time but separately. The best description is that Kryten suffers from separation anxiety when he knows Jiggers is out doing something different then he is. I only pointed out the gentle leader with regards to today to show just how stubborn he can be.
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
Got cha, If he's only doing it when he see the other dogs doing something different (walking ahead or behind), apply the same method backing away from whichever direction he's wanting to pull.

If as your backing up he doesn't return to you, apply correction and use your recall. When you do get him to come (even if you have to aid him with the leash) praise him.

It's not seeing the other dog it's knowing that Jiggers went that way so I want to go that way too. This morning I discovered that any attention given to the misbehavior only exasperated it as he just got more stubborn in his decision to go 'that' way. He didn't like to be ignored however and I used that to get him moving my direction. He did get praised when he chose to behave.
 

joshuagough

Well-Known Member
Ignoring him is allowing him to control the situation. I would advise against that, your solution to everything can't become "I'm going to ignore him until he does what I want".

That's why I suggested strong leash control, once you have that established it really doesn't matter what the distraction is nor what Jiggers is doing. He will understand his focus should be you and nothing else.

Again this is all personal choice, good luck!

It's not seeing the other dog it's knowing that Jiggers went that way so I want to go that way too. This morning I discovered that any attention given to the misbehavior only exasperated it as he just got more stubborn in his decision to go 'that' way. He didn't like to be ignored however and I used that to get him moving my direction. He did get praised when he chose to behave.
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
I don't think it is actually a leash or walking issue, it just appears to be since he is on leash at the time. There is some sort of behavioral/psychological issue connected with the knowledge that Jiggers is that excited to be doing something and he doesn't get to do it too. I just haven't figured out how to correct/prevent the underlying cause yet so I am treating the symptoms.
 

joshuagough

Well-Known Member
He is just being a typical dog. We've worked through this with both the lab & EM, and many other dogs.

If one thinks the other is getting something or doing something better, they want to join in and they will either fight you to get there or hit the ground and throw a fight. You've got to establish leadership in this situation. Doing as Ruth suggested and allowing Jiggers to be in his presence and working through the issues is a good option. However this is pointless unless his leash control is on point without the distraction of Jiggers.

Am I making any sense? Don't feel like I'm connecting the dots here.. ?



I don't think it is actually a leash or walking issue, it just appears to be since he is on leash at the time. There is some sort of behavioral/psychological issue connected with the knowledge that Jiggers is that excited to be doing something and he doesn't get to do it too. I just haven't figured out how to correct/prevent the underlying cause yet so I am treating the symptoms.
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
What your saying makes sense. I'm just having trouble correlating it to this situation. Outside of this issue I can walk him on a flat collar and 95% of the time he is naturally close to my side. The other 5% when his attention is caught by something he can pull and due to the ice on the sidewalks and roads right now that can be very dangerous. I think the need for the gentle leader comes for my peace of mind more than anything thing else.

The one concept I am having trouble with us how ignoring him (taking my attention away) can be worse then his choosing to ignore his training. I tried calling and coaxing with the leash and all I was accomplishing was teaching him that he could chose to ignore the commands. He knows them and outside of today I have never seen him so blatantly ignore them. Yes he made the choice to obey me after I started to ignore him but even had he listen in the first place it would have still been his choice. The only way to make any living creature do something is by physical force and that just is not possible for me to do with Kryten even if that was how I chose to train.

I do think that I have come up with a possible main trigger for this behavior. After thinking back and comparing what was different between the times where his behavior was worse like today and the times where there was very little or no problem. I think that Jiggers excitement at going for a run was too high for Kryten to be able to focus on anything else. Waiting even a couple of minutes for Kryten to settle down after Jiggers has left seems to make a world of difference in Kryten's ability to focus on anything besides trying to get back to where he last saw him.
 

joshuagough

Well-Known Member
95% is great but you want him to be 100% (this way we take that off the table).. we want to drill the dog over and over.. when you come to a stop the dog should stop, left.. right.. same thing. It doesn't matter so much that he's beside you as he's no further than the end of the leash and there's no tension on it. The dog will naturally heel because he will develop a patter to be one step ahead of wondering where your next step will be.

You want it instinct for him (I need to take a video of Tuck doing this so you can see) , I think you know what I'm talking about though. If I'm walking him and I stop or even attempt to change directions he is to the front of my feet without me having to do anything. If I walk forward then stop and go back he circles me and sits by my side, I never told him "hey do this" its a natural progression.

I agree with you needing leverage with the gentle leader, however that has proven it's not full proof.

Try this : use his flat collar, a choker or your leader.. hook it up like normal, take the leash go down the top of his back then loop it around his abdomen (closer to the back legs than my pic below) making a "hitch" type knot. Your not tying a knot in the leash but when you bring it around like the pic below it makes a knot of sort around the dogs abdomen simliar to a choker on the dogs neck.

This gives you two points of contact with the leash if needed 1. the handle as normal 2. you can use the leash portion from the neck to the abdomen as a handle . I try and stay away from this unless the dog is just seriously acting out but for a woman it creates the most leverage so she's not jerked on her face. Do NOT jerk on the leash when using it this way, all you have to do is simply lean back the dog will comply.

Jasper my lab/pound puppy woke up just to take this pic for you so he said you owe him a treat.

photo.jpg




What your saying makes sense. I'm just having trouble correlating it to this situation. Outside of this issue I can walk him on a flat collar and 95% of the time he is naturally close to my side. The other 5% when his attention is caught by something he can pull and due to the ice on the sidewalks and roads right now that can be very dangerous. I think the need for the gentle leader comes for my peace of mind more than anything thing else.

The one concept I am having trouble with us how ignoring him (taking my attention away) can be worse then his choosing to ignore his training. I tried calling and coaxing with the leash and all I was accomplishing was teaching him that he could chose to ignore the commands. He knows them and outside of today I have never seen him so blatantly ignore them. Yes he made the choice to obey me after I started to ignore him but even had he listen in the first place it would have still been his choice. The only way to make any living creature do something is by physical force and that just is not possible for me to do with Kryten even if that was how I chose to train.

I do think that I have come up with a possible main trigger for this behavior. After thinking back and comparing what was different between the times where his behavior was worse like today and the times where there was very little or no problem. I think that Jiggers excitement at going for a run was too high for Kryten to be able to focus on anything else. Waiting even a couple of minutes for Kryten to settle down after Jiggers has left seems to make a world of difference in Kryten's ability to focus on anything besides trying to get back to where he last saw him.
 
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Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
Sorry I took so long to answer. I agree that I want him at 100% and am still working at that. The two issues outside of the main one of this thread are dogs coming at him. If the other dog ignores him he will look but not break, that dog comes directly at us in either a playful or aggressive manner he will respond in kind. The second is every once in a while we will pass someone who sets off his guarding instincts and he'll stop and posture to watch them and then give a warning bark (not a bad thing) however there are a few instances where he won't easily continue walking or will pull towards that individual. Walks have been good but I don't have the ability to test him and Jiggers until next Saturday.
 

joshuagough

Well-Known Member
Dunno why I typed "she" sorry.. corrected that.

The two things you mentioned are simply distraction training opportunities, pretty normal responses in my view. Looking forward to a good report.. start small and build up, try to end his training periods on a "good note".

Sorry I took so long to answer. I agree that I want him at 100% and am still working at that. The two issues outside of the main one of this thread are dogs coming at him. If the other dog ignores him he will look but not break, that dog comes directly at us in either a playful or aggressive manner he will respond in kind. The second is every once in a while we will pass someone who sets off his guarding instincts and he'll stop and posture to watch them and then give a warning bark (not a bad thing) however there are a few instances where he won't easily continue walking or will pull towards that individual. Walks have been good but I don't have the ability to test him and Jiggers until next Saturday.
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
OMG today was so much better then last week. I did a few things differently and I think at least some of them made a difference.
1. I waited until Kryten had calmed down to only a whimper instead of trying to pull before following Jiggers. It only took a minute or two. You could still see him in the distance.
2. The obedience trainer that I've got right now is really pro clicker training and since some of the tricks she is also teaching look as if they will be easier with the clicker I decided to try one with Kryten. I took it and some treats along and he got a click and treat when he came back to my side. By the end of the walk he was happy with just the click, didn't want the treat anymore.
Most of the walk he didn't pull at all and even ignored most of the dogs that approached him. There was a min pin that he was interested in but a nudge to the shoulder snapped him out of it and back to me.
The worst part of the walk occurred when Jiggers passed us near the end but I got him into a sit-stay for about 30s and when we started again while he wasn't as responsive as before he didn't try to pull me off my feet either so that is still an improvement.

I did try out the 'hitched' leash on him but even with a 6' leash I had less then a foot left to hold onto. That doesn't give him enough room to be able to sit down and as he has been trained to sit when I stop walking I don't see it really being feasible.
 

joshuagough

Well-Known Member
Great news! Good job Kryten!

If the clicker is working keep it up. Gotta take everything in small steps if he was able to get it today, then that gives you confidence he can do it again.

On using the hitch I only do that when they are extreme in pulling, they get the picture to knock it off quickly then I undo the hitch and go back to the collar only. It's worked for me but it may make some dogs shut down.


OMG today was so much better then last week. I did a few things differently and I think at least some of them made a difference.
1. I waited until Kryten had calmed down to only a whimper instead of trying to pull before following Jiggers. It only took a minute or two. You could still see him in the distance.
2. The obedience trainer that I've got right now is really pro clicker training and since some of the tricks she is also teaching look as if they will be easier with the clicker I decided to try one with Kryten. I took it and some treats along and he got a click and treat when he came back to my side. By the end of the walk he was happy with just the click, didn't want the treat anymore.
Most of the walk he didn't pull at all and even ignored most of the dogs that approached him. There was a min pin that he was interested in but a nudge to the shoulder snapped him out of it and back to me.
The worst part of the walk occurred when Jiggers passed us near the end but I got him into a sit-stay for about 30s and when we started again while he wasn't as responsive as before he didn't try to pull me off my feet either so that is still an improvement.

I did try out the 'hitched' leash on him but even with a 6' leash I had less then a foot left to hold onto. That doesn't give him enough room to be able to sit down and as he has been trained to sit when I stop walking I don't see it really being feasible.
 
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