Woman on NYC Train Continued to Push Dog

Discussion in 'Dogs in the News' started by Steven C, Apr 26, 2018.

  1. Boxergirl

    Boxergirl Well-Known Member

    There's still not enough information. I see nothing in that article to actually prove that this was a legitimate service dog and handler team. I'm honestly having trouble believing it. Many news articles are reporting that the dog was ON the seat. That isn't allowed. That man's behavior and handling of his dog aren't consistent with what one expects from a legitimate team. Just because the man said it was a service dog doesn't mean it was. It certainly doesn't appear to have been trained as to do what one would normally expect a SD to do on a crowded subway, which would be to tuck, stay close to the man's side, or between his legs. Some sources are also saying that the dog had been crated, which a service dog wouldn't have been. As we've discussed, people say their dogs are service dogs all the time when they really aren't. Could be that he said it thinking it would keep him out of trouble, or perhaps it was an ESA and he doesn't understand the difference. No matter what, the handler was completely at fault here and deserves to have charges filed against him. Incidents like this make it so much harder for working service dog teams.

    I think much of the problem is that too most people don't understand, or care to learn, the difference between a therapy dog or an ESA and a service dog. There are defined rules for that differentiate a working service dog from and ESA or a therapy dog. From the ADA - "Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA."
    Jarena likes this.
  2. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    So you would allow some nutcase woman to push and hit your dog?

    The story is this: The dog apparently went into her space, she pushed the dog out of her space. She continued physically pushing the dog and the dog did not react. The man told her to stop and she did not so he pushed her away as anyone who knows a NYC train knows you cant just up and leave. She then hit the man and the dog reacted and bit her shoe, not her at all but her shoe. Personally I think this dog was very mild and only protecting its owner.

    Would you allow some whacked out chick to hit your dog? I wouldn't. I asked my wife and she wouldn't either. What made him completely at fault? Some whacked out chick suddenly has the right to push dogs, let alone service dogs? Sorry don't buy it. I hope she gets charged with pushing and shoving by the ADA an active service dog.

    As far as crate goes, not possible to bring a PB sized crate on a train in NY as someone who rode the subway often years ago.

    I understand tuck and middle and all that, it doesn't mean that every service dog has to know those particular commands. Middle is also a protection command used but not all protection dogs know middle. There are also service dogs in training which doesn't exclude them from being in public areas.
  3. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    Menopause, drug addicted, meth addict, maybe opioids, inferiority complex but what I am having a hard time understanding is what gave this person the right to push or hit a dog? Let alone service dog? So everyone here on the mastiff forum allow their dogs to get pushed around except NIK and myself?
  4. Sheila Braund

    Sheila Braund Well-Known Member

    All I know is as a dog owner you must have control of your dog at all time! Period! Nothing more to say.
    Steven C likes this.
  5. Justin B.

    Justin B. Active Member

    The dog has no right to be on a seat and brushing against somebody who wants no part of the dog. Even if it is a service dog. She has every right to push the dog off of her.

    If he didnt want his dog pushed he should of kept it off of the lady.
  6. Justin B.

    Justin B. Active Member

    If your dog is physically touching somebody in a public place and they ask you to get your dog off of them or out of your space....Why would you not respect that person's right?
    Her rights were infringed on first.
  7. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    I agree, as myself I have full control of my dog and one of those controls is if someone hit me or attacked me my dog should react to help me? A service dog would have a hard time allowing its ower to get beat up in front of it without reaction.
    Sheila Braund likes this.
  8. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    Justin, in my world nobody lays a hand on anyone or any animal with me. She could have asked but I know some of these whacky people today, just look at them out and about. If someone pushed my daughter on the train I should just move away and have control of my daughter.
  9. Boxergirl

    Boxergirl Well-Known Member

    No. I wouldn't allow someone to hit my dog, geez. There are many differing stories. Some news outlets were reporting that the dog was in a crate. Many reported that the man hit the woman first. Maybe the dog was a SD. Maybe it was an ESA. Maybe it was just a dog riding the subway. We don't have enough facts.

    Maybe all service dogs don't know tuck and middle, but all handlers should know the law. If that dog was on the seat, as many news outlets are reporting, then the law was not being followed. If the dog encroached upon her space then she had every right to ask that the handler move. And the handler should have complied. I've watched the video numerous times. I don't see a crate either, but I've heard that on several reports which is why I mentioned it. What I do see is that there appears to be plenty of room for the handler to have kept the dog away from the woman. The PEOPLE were at fault here. And I *do* put most of the burden on the owner/handler. It's his job to make sure that his dog isn't bothering people. It's his job to be responsible and do everything he can to keep his dog safe and to prevent any incidents from escalating. It's his job to train his dog things like tuck and under, to give him those tools, if he plans to use crowded public transportation. He didn't do that. The incident should never have happened. He should have moved the dog away. If his dog is a service dog or an ESA, he's done the assistance animal community a disservice by his irresponsibility. A great disservice.

    The laws differ by state about service dogs in training. Indiana affords dogs in training the same rights as full service dogs, however the handlers must be much more diligent to make sure that their dogs are still under full control. The same rules apply to dogs in training as they do to full SDs. I don't know what the laws are for dogs in training in New York.

    When my daughter brought her boy home, she called many area businesses and introduced herself and asked if they minded her bringing in a dog in training. If she hadn't called, then she asked for the manager when we went in. She was polite and showed responsibility for her dog. She didn't have to do these things, but it was the right thing to do. There are many times that people are uncomfortable with my daughter's dog. He's still in training, so he isn't perfect. No dog is. He's also a large boxer, which intimidates a lot of people. SHE makes sure that he doesn't encroach on others' space. SHE makes sure that if he's having a bad day, and all dogs do, that she quits for the day. SHE makes sure that if someone appears uncomfortable or makes rude remarks that she stays out of their way so that no incident is allowed to occur. It's her job as handler to keep her dog safe. She's not special. This is what every handler should do. This man didn't do that.
    Steven C and Jarena like this.
  10. Justin B.

    Justin B. Active Member

    That rule is fine. Most strong stand up men & women have that rule. But you have to follow that same rule. The people or animals you are with are held to that same standard.
    Otherwise its a textbook double standard.

    You cant impose that rule on others than say its ok for your animal to do what you deemed unacceptable for others to do.

    Its also possible for both people to be wrong in a situation.
    People's kids or animals have no right hitting or not respecting the space of other adults minding their own business.
    So the parent would be at fault...and the person who overreacted and pushed the kid would be at fault too. So both have consequences coming their ways. Just how the universe works.
    Steven C and Boxergirl like this.
  11. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    This I agree with, however I don't see anywhere in any of the readings where the lady asked to please move the dog. All I read is some savage beast put her hands on the dog and then also her hands on the man.
  12. Boxergirl

    Boxergirl Well-Known Member

    Wow. Menopausal. Better be careful. We have a lot of women on here. Some of in, done, or approaching menopause. We might snap.

    Nobody here has said we'd allow our dogs to be pushed or hit. Most of us would remove them to a safe distance if we weren't able to physically leave the area. It's not that hard. This incident didn't happen without some warning.
    glen and Steven C like this.
  13. Justin B.

    Justin B. Active Member

    Its in plenty of the articles posted in the thread. Also many articles said he hit her first......right in the thread.
    Boxergirl likes this.
  14. Jarena

    Jarena Well-Known Member

    Menopause.... really?
    glen, Steven C and Boxergirl like this.
  15. Boxergirl

    Boxergirl Well-Known Member

    The person that filmed the incident said that the dog was sitting on the bench.

    "Kyng said the man sat down and put his dog on the seat, and as the dog lay down, it bumped the female passenger.

    "She was like, 'The dog don't belong on the seat, that's an animal, people belong on the seat, put the dog on the floor,'" Kyng said. "And he looked at her like, I'm not moving my (expletive) dog.'"

    From there, it went downhill quickly. Kyng said the woman first pushed the dog off the seat. The owner put him back up, and she shoved the dog off again. The owner responded with fists."

    Both people were in the wrong, but this wouldn't have happened if the dog had been where it was supposed to be. By law, if it was a service animal.
    Justin B. likes this.
  16. Justin B.

    Justin B. Active Member

    Well even though she was right with her words and her instructions.
    She was stupid and wrong for pushing the dog off the seat multiple times.
    So they both got consequences.
    She got a dog attack
    And he got legal charges (and maybe a death sentence for an innocent dog)

    When you you make poor decisions and escalate situations be prepared to deal with consequences. Also, know that you dont get to decide what your consequences are in life.

    Sometimes you should recognize who has the most to lose in a situation.
    glen and Steven C like this.
  17. Boxergirl

    Boxergirl Well-Known Member

    Oh, absolutely. The only one I feel sorry for is the dog. I hope it doesn't cost him his life. He's already got a strike against him because of his breed.
    Steven C and Justin B. like this.
  18. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    Great debate, thank you for the input. Very interesting to say the least. My view was that if my kid accidentally brushed up against a lady would it give her the right to push my kid and to me it was a no. No service dog or any dog is perfect and no human is perfect, a brush up is bound to happen, slight rules will be broken on occasion but nobody has the right to hit first. I respect everyones opinion so thanks
  19. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

  20. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    Well that would certainly change things. I do agree this is totally a disservice to the service community and horrible for the dog. Its a tragedy.
    Justin B. likes this.

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