$1500 dogs versus $3000 dogs ?

[megasaurus144]

Hi everyone, I am planning to buy my first "breeder puppy" within the next year. I have had several dogs but they have all been pound puppies, strays I have taken in or puppies from people I know. This is my first time doing my homework to find a quality breeder.

If you don't mind answering, I would like to know what breed of mastiff you have and how much your breeder charged and if your experience was good/bad etc..

(I am in Washington State and am planning to get a Dogue de Bordeaux so recommendations are always welcome as well.)

I have spoken with one breeder in my state and she said for a quality dog I can expect to pay $2,000 - $3,000. I also know that many giant breed dogs come within a range of between $800 at lowest to $1200-$1500, then there are the upwards of $2,000+ dogs......

So my question is, how do I properly judge the quality of the breeder and also, as I am not looking for a show dog I strictly want a companion dog but I do want good health and stable temperament..... What am I going to get from buying a $3000 dog versus a $1,000 - 1,500 dog. Is it really going to be a DRASTIC difference in quality, or is a $3,000 price just plain ridiculous..... OR am I going to potentially buy a cheaper dog and regret it?

 

[jcook]

I am not a breeder so I don't really know what expenses go into breeding, but I do know that if you really care about quality breeding then it does involve more expenses per litter. If you get your dogs health tested then that costs more money = more expensive pups. I also have heard that a good breeder will take a pregnant female to the vet during the pregnancy for an ultrasound (to see how many pups are in there) and after the pups are delivered (to make sure all the pups were delivered), this costs money as i bet you can imagine. If you limit the breedings of a female then that means you are not making a female pump out multiple litters a year. If they make a female have multiple litters a year then they can make more money, but it is not in the best interest of the dog. Then if the breeder does not have a lot of dogs then sometimes they will pay for a stud fee, which can be expensive.

I bought my CC from a breeder and she was show quality (2,500), I think the pet quality price was 2,000, not sure though. We have an english bulldog that we got from a pet store and it was still 2,200$ simply because breeding them is expensive (they require artificial insemination and c-section). I remember on the CC website that it said a good quality breeder will typically charge around 1,500-2,500. But if they are charging 5,000 then they are just marking it up too much.

I think a good quality mastiff should cost around the 1,500-2,500. Can you find one cheaper?? sure, but I personally wanted to avoid as many risks as possible with Stella. I am a big believer in quality, and in general high quality usually has a higher price tag. I think that 1,500 is a good price for a mastiff (that is health tested and comes from a reputable breeder). I figure that the extra money could potentially save me more money (and heartache) in the long run. I was able to tell my breeder what I wanted from a CC (good temperament, not too big, my preferred coat, etc...) and he told said that based on what I wanted then I should get a pup from this particular upcoming litter he had. Even even had another upcoming litter with a sire I loved the look of, but he thought the sire was a little more on the dominant side and thus he suggested I go with a pup from the other litter. Stella is exactly what I asked for and I couldn't be happier.

I don't think 3,000 is ridiculous, but I also think that you could get a good mastiff (especially pet quality) for 1,500. I personally would not go much lower than 1,500 though.

 

[excelrn]

I am not a breeder, but I understand that there is a lot that goes in to thoughtful, quality breeding. There are the costs already mentioned that will raise the price of pups from a particular breeder (more health testing, fewer litters over a lifespan), but there are other factors involved as well. One additional factor would be how common the breed is. If I understand correctly, the DdB is much rarer than some other breeds, hence the price for each pup would be higher due to simple supply and demand.
The idea behind "show" quality, or Champions, is that those dogs are supposed to be the ones that meet the standard for that breed the best (the standard as written by the club that has awarded the Champion label). This would, theoretically, include overall health and less likelihood to have some of the genetic disorders found for the particular breed being discussed. So, if you have a pup from a Champion line, you are supposedly paying more for a dog that is more likely to grow up looking like an excellent example of that breed, and one with excellent health. Many reputable breeders work towards breeding out the health problems that are known to plague certain breeds. This can involve following the genetics and health of the dogs for several generations, before deciding which matings to pursue. It becomes more complicated when you add in trying to breed for certain characteristics over several generations. If the breeders following this process believe they have a great pup (or a great litter), that will exemplify the breed and maybe be the next Best in Show, they are going to charge more.
Of course, if what you want to breed differs from the "standard" as written, then you don't need to look for the pup with Champions going back the last 4 or 5 generations. Example: the last time I looked, the AKC standard for Pugs included the colors fawn, black, apricot, silver, but did not include brindle. If you want to breed brindle Pugs, at least one of the parents won't be a Champion, and should be available for less (barring other circumstances, such as supply/demand). In this case, you'll want to look at each dog and see which ones have the characteristics that you're looking to breed pups for...to continue the example...a brindle Pug with 1 curl, 1 and 1/2 curls, or 2 curls to the tail.

So, as you're considering how much to spend on a puppy that you will eventually breed, consider what you want to see in those future puppies, while also considering what your pup will need in order to be a good breeder. Even if you don't want a "show" dog, do you want a dog that matches your club's standard as written? Do you want a dog that is close to that, but you're willing to accept some features that would keep it from being Best in Show, or Champion (maybe white patches that are too big, or eye color developed incorrectly, something like that)? Or maybe you like a feature that is outside of the standard, say, a dewlap more like a Neo's, and you want to try to breed that into the DdB breed (just an example, don't get mad at me :scared2. Maybe a certain temperament is the most important to you, and you want to be able to trace that temperament on both sides back at least 2 generations, to increase the likelihood of seeing it in the future puppies. The answers to these questions may help you determine how much you're willing to spend on the beginning of your kennel.
:threadjacked:As you consider all of this, some other thoughts that aren't as much fun...not trying to be a killjoy, would just rather you be forewarned and forearmed and not need it, than to have the worst happen. After all, unlike so many other businesses, this "product" is also family a lot of the time...
Although DdB have nice sized litters, they also have high stillborn and early neonatal mortality rates. You can expect to lose 25-30% of the puppies by the first week after birth. Also, some studies show 25-30% of births require Caesarean section. There is the additional risk that required the C/s, and the additional risk caused by the C/s, putting your "precious baby" at risk. Talk with your vet ahead of time, make sure you are confident in their abilities. Have pet insurance. Consider locating an appropriate blood donor to be on call, just in case.:whew:
I hope your search goes well, and that you have fun with it!:doggyhug2:

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

What makes a good breeder is going to be who meets your criteria. As a general rule you want to see them doing something with their dogs, you want to see the health testing of the parents and hopefully see that she hasn't been bred too much. The rest is pretty much subjective, $3000.00 I would imagine is for a show/breed quality mastiff and I would say $1500 to 2000.00 is more likely your pet. Decide what you can spend, find a breeder that will work with you, that has dogs you like in the price range you are willing to pay. Explain what you are looking for to the breeder and make sure they can provide it.

We have Cane corsi which as pets can range from $1500-2000.00 and for a show/breed quality $2500-3500.00.

 

[jenny adams]

as black shadow said when looking for a breeder you want to meat/talk to the breeder, a good breeder will as you as many questions of you as you are asking them, they will be happy for you to visit them see there dogs have healthy dogs and the health tests, blood line papers for the parents that you can look at, the after care a good breeder we be there for you to ask questions any time of day or night will ask you to give them updates on the puppy regal, which is a small ask to send a pics and a note every now and then, my breeder will even come to my house to see gypsy if i have a problem, you have to like your breeder as a person as well as there dogs, not being i the US i cant say on how much you should pay but if i was looking from what BS says he charges i would say about 2000 would give you a strong healthy blood line puppy, in my mined paying that bit more for a good puppy from a healthy blood line, your looking at saving on health problems later on, not to say you will not be at the vets ever, happy hunting good look,

 

[chuckorlando]

I figure you start with a look. Find the look you like and all breeds have varying looks. Then look for breeders with that look. Then look at the things their doing with the dogs. Then the price to widdle down to the winner. Or if you wanted to work the dog then start with the temp you want and ability you want and put looks further back on the list.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I think the others summed it up. I paid $3000 for Apollo (Tibetan Mastiff).

For any of thhese giant breeds, a pup priced under $1000 would make me think twice, and not in a good way. These dogs are EXPENSIVE to own, show, maintain, even if there aren't medical problems. Stud fees for a good quality stud aren't cheap either. When you add in the potemtial medical complications it starts getting really pricey. A pup priced that low, even for pet quality, makes me wonder what corners were cut and what major deformity the pup has.....

 

[Cody]

Yup Ruth!
To be honest I wouldn't even look at one of these breeds priced under 1500$.
Chances are you will not be going to a reputable breeder.
In my breed, before I purchased Aurora, I got a bargain deal on a CC from a BYB. That was my lesson dog, it was a devastating lesson when we had to put her to sleep at 12 months, after spending thousands in vet bills.
I started really researching the breed just after I got Dolce, not just dabbling like before. I started studying lines, talking to people involved in the breed both new and old, and really narrowed down which type was what I wanted. It took over a year of research before I could honestly say I was beginning to understand the breed, the standards and narrow down my choice to what it was that I was looking for (and still learning )
To get that I paid a lot. Yet funny enough, still not as much as the costs I incurred with going to a BYB and buying a "cheap" pup.
If you really want a great quality dog and have a breeder who will back you up if something comes up down the road, that is the price you pay.
You are buying more then a pup with the 2000$. You are paying for lifetime support, peace of mind and an extended family. Chances are good you will be watching your pups littermates as they grow, develop and cheering them on in their achievements big and small, just like they will be cheering you on.
It is not just about buying a dog, but developing a relationship.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Exactly. In Apollo's breeder I have a woman with over 20 years of experience with these dogs. She'll answer any question I ask her (even now, almost two years after picking him up). She WANTs regular pictures, and I'm happy to send them. She wants to know how he's doing health wise. She HAS taken back her pups as adults when their owner got deathly ill and could no longer manage the dog.

 

[TN Dogues]

We recently had a litter of DDBs. Ours were CKC registered (problems with paperwork on one ancestor on Hagrid's sire's side). Our dogues have all the health screenings (hips, heart, eyes) probably over $1k in testing for both. Hanna is AKC, show quality and was $2500. We spent a year looking for Hanna and traveled over 800 miles to get her. Hagrid was $1500 and is CKC registered. We have shown Hanna in several shows and hope to show her more next year.

Our puppies were $1000 each with CKC registration and a 1 year general replacement health guarantee with 2 years on hips. I thought that was more than fair (our buyers thought so too).

Hanna had 8 (2 were stillborn) and needed an emergency c-section for a stuck pup. $1500. Stuck puppies are very common in DDBs. Their heads are large - our pups were 1 pound at birth. Those are some big puppies! We had 6 live pups. And for the first week hubby and I had to monitor all the nursings. Sleep was naps between feedings.

All 6 lived. At 3 weeks, Hanna refused to nurse for more than 5 minutes so we had to begin weaning. But I digress...

$1000-1500 for a dogue puppy is not unheard of. But do your research. Ask the breeder a ton of questions. Meet the sire/dam. Our puppy buyers came in person and spent several hours with us. And when the pups were just 2 weeks old all but one were pre-sold. Hagrid and Hanna were here for them to meet. We have a four generation pedigree on Hanna with photos. Three on Hagrid. And more important - we know the health history on both their lines.

So, my best advice: find a breeder you like and build a good rapport with him/her. A good breeder is there for you after the sale to answer questions, offer advice, etc.

Also, beware of online puppy scams. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is...

There are ads on puppy find for dogues for $350 including shipping. But they only list email as a contact - no phone number. That's red flag #1. If you can't talk or visit in person, beware. Those scams steal photos and list a puppy for sale with some sad sappy story - and there is no real puppy - but you don't find that out until after you send money for shipping.

Our next litter is going to cost us even more than this litter did...and to compensate the pups will be priced higher.

We will be using an outside stud (champion sired AKC reg). So there is a stud fee of $1500. And we can pretty much count on another c-section, there's an additional $1500 - and that's just to get them born! Then there's food, shots, worming medication, toys/chews, puppy packs, vet visit for puppies, etc. It all adds up. I think we spent an additional $400 on puppy stuff. Oh, and don't forget a good whelping box - that's at least $200-300 (we built ours).

So it's not uncommon for breeders to have invested several thousand in a litter. I think I had about $3K. Sure, we made $6K -which is really $3K after expenses, but over 8 weeks? That's only about $375 a week for all the hard work I put forth.

...Raising a litter is exhausting work. Ours are in the house not outside in a kennel. So, we have them well on their way to being potty trained before they even leave our home.

 

[Cody]

@ TN dogues, by CKC are you talking the Continental Kennel Club?

 

[TN Dogues]

Oh, forgot to say...

For those $3000 dogues: I would expect them to have health testing on parents, grandparents even. And for that price I would want AKC and champion sired. They had better be a damn good representation of the breed. And I would want a contract with a health guarantee. I would want to see photos of previous litters at various ages - so I could see if they turned out well at 6 months, 1 year, and even 2 years if possible. Working titles would be nice too. Temperments should be stable as well and true to the breed.

What I'm saying is, if I was paying $3k for a pup - I would expect more in terms of pedigree, conformation, health, temperment, etc.

But if I were looking at a dogue like my Hagrid, who was not AKC registerable - I would not have paid that price for him. He has a nice pedigree - but nothing special. No champions, no famous DDBs. His conformation is good, but not super great. He has a few minor conformation faults.

Just my 02.

 

[Cody]

But if I were looking at a dogue like my Hagrid, who was not AKC registerable - I would not have paid that price for him. He has a nice pedigree - but nothing special. No champions, no famous DDBs. His conformation is good, but not super great. He has a few minor conformation faults.
Just my 02.

May I ask why you choose to breed him?

 

[TN Dogues]

Yes, continental kennel club.

---------- Post added at 01:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------

Because if he had AKC paperwork I would already have him well on his way to championship. Just because one person did not file with AKC when they accepted the DDB back in 2007/08 is not a mark of quality or a lack of it...it's still just a registry. And when you have attended shows as much as I have and saw lesser quality dogues win you might not care about registries as much. I care about the breed. Hagrid's faults are very minor, he has great hips, no heart problems and he complements my bitch. He has the proper height and is out of American bloodlines, whereas Hanna has more European lines (which are shorter but wider). His temperment is great. So, I'm not supposed to breed him because he doesn't have the right paperwork?

 

[TN Dogues]

Because if he had AKC paperwork I would already have him well on his way to championship. Just because one person did not file with AKC when they accepted the DDB back in 2007/08 is not a mark of quality or a lack of it...it's still just a registry. And when you have attended shows as much as I have and saw lesser quality dogues win you might not care about registries as much. I care about the breed. Hagrid's faults are very minor, he has great hips, no heart problems and he complements my bitch. He has the proper height and is out of American bloodlines, whereas Hanna has more European lines (which are shorter but wider). His temperment is great. So, I'm not supposed to breed him because he doesn't have the right paperwork?

 

[Cody]

Trouble is none of his offspring can be registered or shown, so how does that benefit the breed in the long run?
I understand it is just a registry, unfortunately that is really all that we have to go on. I too have seen horrid examples of my breed win at shows and become CH, it happens in every breed. Is part of it, does it suck? Absolutely, but is part of dog shows and breeding.
And no, honestly, I wouldn't consider breeding a dog without correct paperwork. Nor would I recommend a breeder that does.
I am not trying to offend you, I am just curious as to why you did, based on what you said above.
The purebred dog world is a fickle place.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Could he be registered UkC? I'd personally prefer UKC registration over CKC any day.

 

[Confused68]

I live in Washington and we just purchased an EM. I talked with a few breeders in my area before picking one- We paid $1500.00 for Triton and he is of pet quality with limited registration. We have been very happy with our breeder, they enjoy updates and are ALWAYS available to answer our questions.

 

[TN Dogues]

And by not having the 'right' paperwork I was being sarcastic - I simply meant he did not have AKC paperwork. He is purebred, out of registered dogs, and has paperwork. So what if he can't be registered with AKC? There are many other registries out there. And that's just a matter of opinion on who has the better or more prestigious club. I don't think it hurts the breed to be registered with other clubs. AKC has ruined some breeds (most of them working breeds) because the focus was strickly on looks rather than ability.

Yes, he could be Ukc.

FYI...I am working at getting him registered as AKC foundation stock. Then after 3 more generations, his offspring WOULD be registrable through AKC. But not this litter, or the next.

BTW, that's what I was getting at. Not everyone wants to spend $3000 on a dog nor can everyone afford to. So, the other options are dogs that are priced lower...

Basically, Megasaurus: just do your research. Know what you are looking for in a DDB (pet, show dog, whatever). Decide what you are willing to spend and then find a few breeders in that range. Once you have a couple of breeders, narrow it down.

One final note about genetics. You can have the best dog and the best bitch and they may produce great puppies. But genetic disorders aren't sometimes visible, and are usually recessive traits. Despite all the health testing, some dogs still get bad hips or hearts even when the parents don't test positive for it. So, the $3000 dog may have just as great a chance of having health issues as the $1500 dog. There are no guarantees. But having the parents tested is a start. If they have had pups before, knowing how those pups turned out is better. And lastly, having a contract that covers genetic defects buys you peace of mind at any price. It means the breeder stands by their dogues.

Ultimately, the price you pay for a dog is up to you. And price alone is no guarantee of quality. Neither is a registry. If you aren't certain about a breeder, you can always check with the BBB to see if there are complaints. Ask for references to past puppy buyers, ask for their vet's phone number, and be sure to actually check those references out.

 

[Tailcreek]

Don't judge the quality of the dog on the asking price though. Anyone can charge $2k or $3k for a dog. A higher price doesn't always mean you are getting a better dog.

Jennifer
www.tailcreekmastiffs.com
www.thenaturalcarnivore.com