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Hobby vs professional breeders

Jerms

Well-Known Member
Do you think mary from black shadow would give away hemi or danae after they are done breeding? Even if it was a loving home? I highly doubt it.
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
@Jerms, many larger scale breeders do not have all their dogs living in the house as part of a happy family unit, many live in kennels. Yes many breeders do rehome their females after a few litters, do I agree with it? Depends on the situation. In a smaller breeder setup, where the dogs are with the family, there is limited space. So in order to progress their program they need to rehome. However, they interview extensively to find the right home/fit for that dog. It can be hard on the dog, but they do adapt and many times are going from being one of 5 (random number) to being the only dog. To assume that the life they move to is not a good one is naive. Yes, the breeder loved that dog, and many times it is the best interest of the dog to be rehomed.
I look at my boy, he is the breeders pick. Got his CH at a young age, after walking in the ring a total of 6 times. He took an award of merit over specials and 22 other dogs, to finish his CH. His breeder loves him, but knew that Black Jack would do better living in my home with Aurora (also from the same breeder) being a family dog. Not being one of 5 or 6 intact dogs that get to rotate family time. There is a difference, it is the best interest of the dog.
In larger set ups how is it bad for the dog to go from a kennel situation to a home, sleeping on the couch, sleeping on a bed.
I never believed I would rehome a dog until the situation arose that my dogs quality of life decreased due to one dog in my home. Her quality was not great, so in the best interest of EVERYONE she was rehomed by her breeder.
Things are not always Black and White, in fact they seldom if ever are.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
@ ruth I think if you are breeding dogs just to get what you can get out of a dog and give it away its not in the best interest of the dog. So you think its ok to keep a dog in an environment they arent happy with--keep them around for its useful years THEN give it a good home? That isnt right either.

---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 PM ----------

Ruth calling me an idiot doesnt make you right. It has been said the dogs are rehomed to make room for the breeding of more dogs that doesnt mean the dog wasnt happy. It means the breeder think his or her dogs are expendable.

I can't decide if you're really just not getting it or if you're deliberetly being obtuse to try to start a fight. You keep making assumptions about what I'm saying that are only barely related, and taking bits of other conversations and applying them where they barely apply. And you keep doing it.

Are there kennels that rehome dogs for no reason other than than the dog isn't usefull? Yes. And I have yet to see an example where the breeder in question was someone I'd consider reputable or that I'd want to buy from. But somehow you've decided that ANY breeder who rehomes is OBVIOUSLY doing so for that reason. Duh. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE!!!

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT REPUTABLE BREEDERS. I'm talking about reputable breeders. I'm talking about people who care about every dog they breed or own and spend time money and energy trying to make the dogs as happy in their homes as they can. And if 4 or 5 years down the road, when the dog is finally retired from showing and is now living at home full time (which often isn't the case while the dog is on the show circut) and its finally obvious that everything they've done still hasn't made their home 100% ideal for that dog, they go out of their way to find a home the dog will be happy in.
 

Jerms

Well-Known Member
If your breeding operation gets so big that you have to keep dogs in kennels its probably time to stop breeding. And ruth in the beginning of the thread my question was about breeders who rehome dogs because they arent useful or they have no room. Not about personality clash. Now im gonna rehome my daughter cuz shes not as useful as she used to be. There is this neighbor down the block who i think can give her a better quality of life. Again i will ask--would mary of blackshadow give away hemi or danae after they were done being breedable. I doubt it because she truly loves her dog like i do. Unlike breeders who rehome their dogs no matter what excuse they give(better home no room personality clash) sorry this is how it is from what i can see.

---------- Post added 01-11-2013 at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was 01-10-2013 at 11:22 PM ----------

@ cody i dont think dogs should ever be kept in a kennel and not on a couch with a family.-but thats just me, but your post did make a lot of sense and im happy the rehoming worked out for you.
 

Jerms

Well-Known Member
@ cody i dont think dogs should ever be kept in a kennel and not on a couch with a family.-but thats just me, but your post did make a lot of sense and im happy the rehoming worked out for you.
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
That actually was what the original question was/is about, larger breeders vs small.
Breeders that have large set ups who's dogs are primarily in kennels vs the small hobby breeder who has the dogs in the house.
The only person that can answer that question Jerms, is Mary. You are making assumptions without actually speaking to her about this. The rest of us cannot speak about what she will do in the future with her program.
Do you think, and I will use Mary as an example, that she has all her dogs free in her house? No kenneling/crating and rotating? You think 5 intact CC are all okay with eachother all the time? Mary has posted about personality clashes...
Very very few breeders can do that. Especially if they are breeding for themselves, which ALL reputable breeders should be, as with every litter they are adding more dogs to their home.
The hard part about explaining this and your arguments is there are 2 different mentalities. The pet owner and the breeder, you are looking at everything as a pet owner. That makes sense since that is what you are.
Breeders have to make different calls based on what is best for all the dogs and their programs.

---------- Post added at 10:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 PM ----------

@ cody i dont think dogs should ever be kept in a kennel and not on a couch with a family.-but thats just me, but your post did make a lot of sense and im happy the rehoming worked out for you.
That is a very utopian ideal Jerms. Unfortunately not always realistic when owning multiple dominant, intact dogs of the same sex. These are not Bichons I am talking about, separating 2 hundred lb powerful animals who have decided they are no longer buddies is a dangerous and at times painful task. Believe me, one Corso will not back down, two leaves scars.
The rehoming worked out for us to the degree that both dogs are still alive and didn't kill eachother, nor do they have to live in crates to be separated. I too have the pet mentality that my dogs are my family and they should be free in our house with us, not crated.
 
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ruby55

Well-Known Member
I have a friend who breeds & shows boxers. Personally I think she's crazy; boxers are so popular in the AKC ring that she has to go up against 20+ dogs in the ring. Anyway, she had a 6 year old male that was retired from the ring. He was born in her house. His name was Spike. Along came Deuce, who she & her partner got when he was a puppy. Deuce is now about 12 months old. And he's feeling his oats. He & Spike have gotten into it more than once, despite spending hundreds of dollars making fences & gates in her house to keep them apart. Evidently boxers are notorious for male on male agression. She's had other dogs around Spike with no problem. But Spike & Deuce are out to kill each other. She's not able to rehome Deuce for 2 reasons: 1) Her partner who paid for half of him, would kill her. Partner does not have room for one more dog. 2) Deuce is a bit of a lunatic out of the ring. Behavior problems that she's been working on since she got him.
The solution was to give Spike to her ex husband, who loves him dearly. Her heart is broken, but if she didn't split them up, one of them would have died. Along with possibly one or more of her girls, since they go into a frenzy when the males fight. And since she lives alone, possibly her. Was she wrong to give up Spike? Absolutely not. The alternative would have been to put one of them down. Spike is now a single dog, living with a man who loves him as much as his former owner does (my friend).
And Jerms, I agree with you that a breeding operation that needs dogs in kennels is too big. I've seen some of the dogs who come from the kennels, not the house, & they almost always have behavior problems. We have one @ work that was donated by a large volume breeder of golden retrievers on the east coast. Won't mention names, but 10 years ago she did great things for the breed. It got out of control; many of her dogs now have something wrong mentally. From the time they were apart from the litter, there have been behavior problems. The one we have here is the same; I love her dearly but she's a lunatic. Also very submissive, almost fearful around humans. And I'm willing to bet that this girl was donated because she just wasn't useful. Not in the ring; not in the field. She's not showy enough to breed for looks. She was wasting space in the kennel. So they took the tax deduction on her. That's what happens in LVB's sometimes. It's just a business, like cattle or sheep.
ETA: My friend & her partner have 12 dogs total, not including Spike. Four of them are retired; two are so old they creak when they walk. There are no plans to dump them now that they're no longer showing.
Also, to answer the original question: it all depends on the breeders. Even responsible hobby breeders may not have what you're looking for, or you may not get a good vibe when meeting them. You're planning on having this dog for many many years; you better be able to check in with the breeder occasionally, keep them up to date on the dog. On the other hand professional or LVB's may have such a great operation that you feel confident enough to take home one of their dogs.
 
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dogman#1

Well-Known Member
I know of breeders that buy a male or a female to do one or 2 specific breedings and then either sell them or give them away again. Sometimes it is the only way to get the exact breeding you want. personally I wouldnt consider any breeder that was to rehome a dog "unethical" as long as they didnt breed the dog to death and then gave it away. You guys have to remember that breeders have certain goals in their mind and a dog they raised may not turn out the way they expected but may be perfect for someone else's breeding program. in that situation would you expect the 1st breeder to hold that dog and keep not only him/herself from their goals but possibly some other breeder as well? Or lets take the case of a small hobby breeder that only has 4 or 5 dogs and only has space for that many dogs... their breeding program would come to a halt once all their dogs turn a certain age. everything has its exceptions and as long as the breeder doesnt maltreat or abuse their animals and they are going to a good home or breeder then I dont see anything wrong with it. same thing goes for making a profit... as long as the breeder is putting out a quality dog w/ all the testing then it should be o.k in my book.BTW I would find it impossible to rehome a dog that I actually raised with my family, in my home but that is me and I dont judge others for being able to do that, hell I would love a dog that came from a loving home, full grown, already trained, etc. (ofcourse with filas this is not as easy unless you got a kennel set up).
 
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chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
If there was already a thread about rehoming as a breeder, why did it have to jump from that thread to this thread?

I'm not sure how many diffrent ways you can ask the same question or how many ways it can be answered. It's amusing that we can treat fish, ducks, horses, cows, and anything else as a business. But you breed dogs, oh well that cant be a business.

You ever dated a girl that you loved to death. But she was a straight up bitch. You just bump heads constantly. It just aint gonna work. This dont mean you dont love her. It just means it aint gonna work. Maybe she refuses to clean. Maybe she wont cook. Maybe you wont clean or cook. Now there two dirty hungry fools holding onto love.

There are things called circumstance. These are not the same as theory. In theory the world works in a wonderfull way. Then circumstance happens and shows you that your theory only sounds good on paper
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Ruth your still trying?

It depends on the breeder and their specific goals. That's why I believe its so hard to "standardize" a checklist for reputable breeders. BYB's are master salesman and wear many faces.
 

northernmastiff

Well-Known Member
If your breeding operation gets so big that you have to keep dogs in kennels its probably time to stop breeding. And ruth in the beginning of the thread my question was about breeders who rehome dogs because they arent useful or they have no room. Not about personality clash. Now im gonna rehome my daughter cuz shes not as useful as she used to be. There is this neighbor down the block who i think can give her a better quality of life. Again i will ask--would mary of blackshadow give away hemi or danae after they were done being breedable. I doubt it because she truly loves her dog like i do. Unlike breeders who rehome their dogs no matter what excuse they give(better home no room personality clash) sorry this is how it is from what i can see.

---------- Post added 01-11-2013 at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was 01-10-2013 at 11:22 PM ----------

@ cody i dont think dogs should ever be kept in a kennel and not on a couch with a family.-but thats just me, but your post did make a lot of sense and im happy the rehoming worked out for you.

Jerms, I think you are deliberately not getting what is said. Would you tell a breeder who bred working dogs not to kennel? Gun dogs thrive in kennel situations. They are there to work and they are not meant to be in the home because they need to stay tough for what they do. Should that breeder stop? There are breeds that should not be kenneled so yes, the dogs need to be rehomed because you cannot keep too many dogs in your home, there are limits. There are breeds that can be either or and there are breeds that do best only when kenneled. You forget that dogs were working creatures before we brought them into their homes. Mastiffs were commonly kept outdoors because they were guardian breeds used to protect property. It is no hardship for a dog to live in a nice kennel depending on the breed. However, even breeders know that dogs deserve to retire in luxury and going to a pet home from a kennel is the best they can do for their dogs.

I know what you are fishing for so I will give it to you. Yes, owning a kennel is a business, yes, if you want to remain viable you have to rehome. Breeding is not a pretty business. It is filled with tears and heartache and it is not for the weak willed. You can lose an entire litter with one infection, you can lose your prize bitch during delivery or you could lose a puppy at any time during those first 8 weeks. Throughout all of it, you have to do what is right for you, the dogs in your care and the future dogs that you will have. Rehoming is one of the ugly parts of breeding and some breeders do not rehome while others do. If it is a business and not just a hobby, then rehoming is the most viable option. The dog goes to a wonderful home (the breeder makes sure) and is rewarded for the work the dog has done. It is the same with people who have working dogs, even if they don't breed. The dog works and upon retirement, he moves on to a non-working home.

Just to put it in comparison. If a guy does search and rescue work. That is his business and he has dogs for that business, should he close down his business when the dog becomes too old to work. Should he be placed in a kennel away from the family or rotated with the family because the younger dogs are too much for him. More than likely, he would rehome the dog into a nice family home where he can spend his final years being pampered. Yes, it sounds mean but it is actually one of the best things for the dog.

I really think people need to stop viewing people as evil if they rehome an animal. At times, things do not work out. All the best intentions in the world when you purchase a dog can be derailed. Job loss, divorce, death, severe stress can lead to a dog needing to be rehomed. A think a person is more noble rehoming than keeping the dog in less than a perfect situation. Dogs that remain in stressful situations often see neglect and even abuse because the people are overtaxed. Yes, there are stupid reasons to rehome but there are also good reasons.

Breeders have to find that fine line and if it works for the dog and means the dog is happy, then it works.

---------- Post added at 08:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 AM ----------

In regards to the first question. I am actually fine with both as long as the dogs are cared for properly. I have known small hobby breeders who are amazing and go above and beyond for their litters and dogs and then I have known small hobby breeders who are not much better than a byb. The same goes for large scale professional breeders. Again, you have the ones that go above and beyond and the others that are nothing more than glorified puppy mills. I don't like how there are some large scale breeders who say anyone with less than 3 dogs is a byb simply because a) everyone has to start somewhere and b) not everyone wants to have a big operation. I would purchase from either as long as they are high quality, reputable breeders and not the latter.

One personal preference that I have is that I would never purchase from a breeder who breeds more than one breed of dog. I get that everyone loves more than one breed but it is so difficult to know everything about one breed, how can you really be breeding for the breed if you have 3 or 4 different breeds there. Also, there is a problem with a few unethical breeders having a oops litter and lying on the registration. There is a theory that the silver labs comes from a pairing of Weimaraner and Labrador Retrievers since the color first showed up in a litter produced by a breeder who had both breeds in his kennel. In addition, all silver labs today have dogs from that kennel in their lines. Could be coincidence but I think someone lied on a registration form.
 

northernmastiff

Well-Known Member
In regards to the first question. I am actually fine with both as long as the dogs are cared for properly. I have known small hobby breeders who are amazing and go above and beyond for their litters and dogs and then I have known small hobby breeders who are not much better than a byb. The same goes for large scale professional breeders. Again, you have the ones that go above and beyond and the others that are nothing more than glorified puppy mills. I don't like how there are some large scale breeders who say anyone with less than 3 dogs is a byb simply because a) everyone has to start somewhere and b) not everyone wants to have a big operation. I would purchase from either as long as they are high quality, reputable breeders and not the latter.

One personal preference that I have is that I would never purchase from a breeder who breeds more than one breed of dog. I get that everyone loves more than one breed but it is so difficult to know everything about one breed, how can you really be breeding for the breed if you have 3 or 4 different breeds there. Also, there is a problem with a few unethical breeders having a oops litter and lying on the registration. There is a theory that the silver labs comes from a pairing of Weimaraner and Labrador Retrievers since the color first showed up in a litter produced by a breeder who had both breeds in his kennel. In addition, all silver labs today have dogs from that kennel in their lines. Could be coincidence but I think someone lied on a registration form.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
If there was already a thread about rehoming as a breeder, why did it have to jump from that thread to this thread?

I can't decide if its because he's that clueless about basic manners or if its because he's trying to start an arguement. He got told off in one thread, and had to go start an arguement in another. I'm leaning towards deliberately starting arguements personally.

Ruth your still trying?

Yah yah, I know better than to feed the trolls, its what I get for being stubborn.

Jerms, I think you are deliberately not getting what is said.

Pretty much.
 

Robtouw

Well-Known Member
I have no issue with either hobby nor professional breeders making a profit as long as the breeder is adhering to breed standard and is doing their best to properly keep the breed strong. I have used both and require the same from each. It is expensive to produce healthy, well bred pups and I understand the need to pass along the expense. I am not interested in showing.

Regardless of which I go to I require that the female not have more than 1 prior litter of pups, vet checks on both sire & dam, Pretesting for cystinuria, pra, and hips. Vaccination and worming records from a vet, permission for my vet to contact the breeders vet and discuss prior medical history before purchase. Several visits to the breeder during pregnancy and during the time between birth and rehoming. A feed schedule from the breeder along with food for the 1st two weeks that I bring the pup home. Any breeder that shys away from my questions, does not allow visits and has issues with my needs I step away from. Cruiser's breeder was a hobbiest. It was her third breeding, she has three beautiful females. I was able to meet Cruiser's mother, father, grandparents, they were all beautiful. All of her girls were bred only once and I was lucky, the breeder was incredibly easy to deal with and we still communicate. I visited 6 different breeders, 2 professional and 4 hobby before choosing.
 

Jerms

Well-Known Member
Now its been explained in away that i understand by northernmastiff. So thanks. Sorry if i see a dog spending its days in a kennel as not the best thing for the dog. whatever Im gonna be the bigger man and not trade insults with you guys sorry for not being as educated as you guys. And yes northermastiff-- that was what I was trying to figure out. I knew that breeders reputable and otherwise are in it as a business as much as for the love of the dogs. So thanks again for proving my point. Maybe deutche doggen can now understand this too. The whole problem here is dog lovers are trying to convince themselves that these reputable breeders are saints that just want to make people happy with their wonderful dogs. Real life doesnt work that way.
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
Robtouw, I noticed you said the female not have more then 1 prior litter, may I ask why that is?
I am fine with a bitch producing 3-4 litters in a lifetime, but no litters before the age of 2.
One of my flags is repeat litters, unless there is some unforeseen circumstance that the breeder lost all the pups from the first litter... You loved the litter, that is awesome, you got wha you need from that pairing. The second time is just a sales pitch IMO. Same with recreating litters, using a littermate to the same male you just used.
I know many breeders who just recreate the same litters over and over if one dog was successful...
I prefer to see breeders thinking outside the box. But tha is another thread :)
Personally I prefer smaller breeders, whether others agree or disagree I like to hear their opinions.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Robtouw, I noticed you said the female not have more then 1 prior litter, may I ask why that is?
I am fine with a bitch producing 3-4 litters in a lifetime, but no litters before the age of 2.

Apollo's dam had 3 litters total, each spaced out from the other. The last, Apollo's, was pushing the upper limit of the age barrier for healthy litters, but she had the dog cleared by the vet first, and when the litter proved to be huge after all paid for a c-section rather than risk a natural birth. I don't have a problem with that. She had the vet clearence availible for me to see.

One of my flags is repeat litters, unless there is some unforeseen circumstance that the breeder lost all the pups from the first litter... You loved the litter, that is awesome, you got wha you need from that pairing. The second time is just a sales pitch IMO. Same with recreating litters, using a littermate to the same male you just used.
I know many breeders who just recreate the same litters over and over if one dog was successful...

Yah, if its a repeat breeding I want to know why. Maybe the first litter only had a few pups and all were female and the breeder really wanted a boy so they're trying again. Thats fine, but I want to know WHY, and it'd better be something other than "well the first litter did so well....."

I prefer a smaller breeder myself, but then you have to define a smaller breeder. At the time of Apollo's litter being born his breeder had a total of 15 adults on the property. That doesn't sound small. Till you realize that other than Apollo's mother none of the females were intact (and she was spayed at the time of the c-section), and only 4 of the males were intact (and at least two of them were co-owned by her partner kennel and were in the states to get their AKC title), of the rest, 4 were over the age of 12 and were living out their golden years in luxury, and most of the rest were rescues of one type or another that she was caring for while homes were found.
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Now its been explained in away that i understand by northernmastiff. So thanks. Sorry if i see a dog spending its days in a kennel as not the best thing for the dog. whatever Im gonna be the bigger man and not trade insults with you guys sorry for not being as educated as you guys. And yes northermastiff-- that was what I was trying to figure out. I knew that breeders reputable and otherwise are in it as a business as much as for the love of the dogs. So thanks again for proving my point. Maybe deutche doggen can now understand this too. The whole problem here is dog lovers are trying to convince themselves that these reputable breeders are saints that just want to make people happy with their wonderful dogs. Real life doesnt work that way.

Its not a matter of being educated everyone has to start somewhere. I was not going to "take that bait" like Nothern stated. If dog breeders/breeding is a business to you that's fine. Personally I don't do view GOOD reputable breeding as a "business" but rather a service. If breeders are making bank at the expense of the dog ( health, temp, etc) to me that is unethical. If breeders do the previous but take care of their dogs that's fine too. My business is not their's. My business is to ensure I have a happy healthy temp stabled, pup.

To the "breeder saints" comment As long as humans call the shots there will be "good" and "bad" as breeders go. Now which is whic would depend on the indivual.
 

northernmastiff

Well-Known Member
Now its been explained in away that i understand by northernmastiff. So thanks. Sorry if i see a dog spending its days in a kennel as not the best thing for the dog. whatever Im gonna be the bigger man and not trade insults with you guys sorry for not being as educated as you guys. And yes northermastiff-- that was what I was trying to figure out. I knew that breeders reputable and otherwise are in it as a business as much as for the love of the dogs. So thanks again for proving my point. Maybe deutche doggen can now understand this too. The whole problem here is dog lovers are trying to convince themselves that these reputable breeders are saints that just want to make people happy with their wonderful dogs. Real life doesnt work that way.

I don't think anyone was saying they were saints. They were just trying to explain that profit is not really profit when you take in all the hours and effort that goes into creating a high quality litter. I may be a bit of a snob but if someone asked me to write articles for them for $2 an hour, I would tell them to stick it in a few choice places (actually I have been asked and I have answered just that). $2 an hour is not a "real" profit so a breeder making $2 an hour to produce a litter, it can be called a profit because even making a cent on an investment is still a profit but it is not a viable profit, which is what we were trying to explain.
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
That 2 $ an hour profit does not include the food, vet care and general maintenance of the adult dogs through out their lives. Nor does it take into consideration the purchasing, titles, handling fees, training costs of the parent/s that is spent prior to breeding. The creation of ones foundation. In many cases importing dogs/semen from overseas, the storage of the frozen goo, the testing on both prior to breeding...
In a business ALL costs must be taken into account.
Although at the time of sale the breeder may have cash in hand to buy a modest car, the reason they probably couldn't before is the $$$ all went to the dogs :D