How to train my cc to stop jumping and barking at everything!

[Tracyhc]

I would appreciate advice on my now 22 month old female cc. She just jumps up to ppl she knows or doesn't know. Now I know she's very excited when she sees ppl she knows whom visits but she also barks and attempts to jump up to ppl like the post man or passing ppl while on walks, mainly if their carrying a bag or have a hat or mask on, now I try and assure strangers that she's ok but still it frightens the life out of them. I made a terrible terrible mistake of allowing her to be a puppy upto and beyond reaching 1. She's so strong on walks if she sees a cat she pulls me towards them or she gets loose on the lead as i can't hold her back, now my friends and family see this as a real worry because if we are by a road she could pull me straight into it as I'm not strong enough to stop her. Please tell me she will grow out of this and they will come a point when she listens and obeys me is they any advice on this and also once she's got out of my hand on the lead she won't come back to me. I have to trick her but this could be an hour's job

 

[apollo92]

I would appreciate advice on my now 22 month old female cc. She just jumps up to ppl she knows or doesn't know. Now I know she's very excited when she sees ppl she knows whom visits but she also barks and attempts to jump up to ppl like the post man or passing ppl while on walks, mainly if their carrying a bag or have a hat or mask on, now I try and assure strangers that she's ok but still it frightens the life out of them. I made a terrible terrible mistake of allowing her to be a puppy upto and beyond reaching 1. She's so strong on walks if she sees a cat she pulls me towards them or she gets loose on the lead as i can't hold her back, now my friends and family see this as a real worry because if we are by a road she could pull me straight into it as I'm not strong enough to stop her. Please tell me she will grow out of this and they will come a point when she listens and obeys me is they any advice on this and also once she's got out of my hand on the lead she won't come back to me. I have to trick her but this could be an hour's job

Prong collar.

I’d watch some YouTube videos on the proper use of this tool and make sure you are using it correctly. Assuming you have your dog in a heel it’s a great tool because they are pretty much correcting themselves when they get out of line.

As far as jumping at people goes I would give a collar pop(with the prong collar on)and a firm NO every single time it happens and stay consistent.

The prong collar should make a big difference with your training if used properly.

 

[glen]

I would appreciate advice on my now 22 month old female cc. She just jumps up to ppl she knows or doesn't know. Now I know she's very excited when she sees ppl she knows whom visits but she also barks and attempts to jump up to ppl like the post man or passing ppl while on walks, mainly if their carrying a bag or have a hat or mask on, now I try and assure strangers that she's ok but still it frightens the life out of them. I made a terrible terrible mistake of allowing her to be a puppy upto and beyond reaching 1. She's so strong on walks if she sees a cat she pulls me towards them or she gets loose on the lead as i can't hold her back, now my friends and family see this as a real worry because if we are by a road she could pull me straight into it as I'm not strong enough to stop her. Please tell me she will grow out of this and they will come a point when she listens and obeys me is they any advice on this and also once she's got out of my hand on the lead she won't come back to me. I have to trick her but this could be an hour's job

Personally i wont use a prong, used wrongly they can really hurt the dog, and if shes adamant to pull and gets loose thats not going to help anyway.
I would start eith going back to basics with her training, ie sit, stay, here, leave, do this at home, is she food or toy motivated, whichever works, keep getting her to come to you get her to sit, then down, use the food and get her to lay down then treat and praise, also what leash are you using,

 

[Boxergirl]

Can you please elaborate on what training you have done with your dog? Have you worked with a trainer? Please be as specific as possible.

Every single thing you want to achieve with your dog can be done with reward based training. A prong is not needed and should NEVER be "popped." Please do not listen to this advice. One of the dangers, beyond physical injury, is that pain can change the "excited" response you're seeing into a fearful and aggressive response. A prong can theoretically be used as an effective and humane tool for many dogs, but in a situation like you're dealing with it wouldn't be training. It would be punishment and management through discomfort and pain and that's not teaching the dog anything except that it's uncomfortable to do certain things at certain times.

If you'd like to share where you're located perhaps we can help you find a trainer in your area.

 

[BattleDax]

Can you please elaborate on what training you have done with your dog? Have you worked with a trainer? Please be as specific as possible.

Every single thing you want to achieve with your dog can be done with reward based training. A prong is not needed and should NEVER be "popped." Please do not listen to this advice. One of the dangers, beyond physical injury, is that pain can change the "excited" response you're seeing into a fearful and aggressive response. A prong can theoretically be used as an effective and humane tool for many dogs, but in a situation like you're dealing with it wouldn't be training. It would be punishment and management through discomfort and pain and that's not teaching the dog anything except that it's uncomfortable to do certain things at certain times.

If you'd like to share where you're located perhaps we can help you find a trainer in your area.

I agree that training would be the number one and best approach to this. Now that you're at where you're at, what with your Corso's training needs not being met thus far, it will take remediating action to try to get on top of this. I agree with the back-to-basics idea here. For me, hiring a trainer has never been an option due to expense and, well, I just decided from the start to do all my own training. I always start with training the heel. For me it's the foundation.

@Boxergirl , if I may, I'd like to inquire about your assertion that popping a prong collar is a bad idea and could cause injury. That has not been my understanding. It seems to me that probably about 98.5% of people use the prong collar incorrectly, in that they just let the dog pull on it and in so doing deliver itself a correction. The way it's meant to be used is (with the collar high up on the neck, and not being allowed to slip down) that there should not be any tension on the leash/collar, and when the dog puts some tension on it, you give a crisp pop probably accompanied by a command that the dog understands. So a combination of training and perhaps a prong can be effective. It's been my understanding that the prong collar won't inure a dog, and a traditional choker, which has so fallen out of favor (not really for me) is what can theoretically cause damage to the throat.

I've heard several experienced dog owners refer to a prong collar as "power steering for your dog" which unfortunately gives the impression of it being used improperly, but in the case of these people, I don't think so. Me? I have never really used one much, as a prong collar seems to shout to the world "I have a training problem!"

Back to the jumping: As for jumping on you and people you know, I have always recommended simply telling them to put up a knee for the dog's chest to run into. Of course, the person would have to have sufficient health and dexterity. I wouldn't ask grandma to do this. Of course, if you have a particularly driven, spastic dog who loves very much to use their paws (like mine) you might just wind up with their front legs hugging your calf and the problem goes from there – ha!

 

[Boxergirl]

I'm going to put this right here at the top of my post. I am a crossover trainer. I've tried every single tool and technique. I came close to ruining a dog with severe generalized anxiety by using out dated methods out of desperation. If I knew then what I know now Al would have had a much better quality of life much sooner. My greatest regret in my life so far is that I didn't know then what I know now and I wasn't able to help him enough soon enough. Al is why I'm so passionate about behavior. So ... I don't think there's ever a need for a prong. I think that in almost all instances actual training isn't happening and people are managing the problematic behaviors. Once that collar comes off the behaviors remain in almost every dog. The purpose is supposed to be to transition away from the training tool (prong) and no longer need it. I have very seldom seen that happen. I've seen it happen with professional trainers, but I've never seen it happen with the regular dog owner. Not one time. Once that prong goes on it stays for life because the behavior change is only there when the dog is wearing the collar. And you know what? That's fine. If the owner is fine with that then what's it to me? As long as no harm is coming to the dog. I just get frustrated hearing how well someone's dog is "trained" with the prong when they go right back to the problematic behaviors the second the collar comes off. That's not the definition of a well trained dog. A prong is mostly used as a management tool rather than a training tool. Again, that's fine. Just call it what it is. I also hear many people justify their use to equalize the relationship. Small owner + large dog = need for prong collar. I used to say the same thing. The truth is with the right kind of training even the smallest handler can walk any size dog on a harness. When you know better you do better, it's really that simple.

I know that collar pops are how people are told to use the prong. I think that we can agree that the way the collar is designed to work is that it makes certain behaviors uncomfortable. How uncomfortable depends on the person delivering the pop. In a situation where a dog is over threshold - as this dog clearly is from the description - it's very unlikely that it will be a pop and more like a POP. Physical damage most definitely can happen from a prong. Physical damage can happen from any tool used around the neck. I don't think any popping is ever necessary, but especially for a tool with the potential to elicit fallout. My biggest concern is that the addition of unpleasantness when the trigger is near can have unintentional fallout. Often does. Just for instance: Dog sees person or other animal and starts reacting. Handler applies a strong pop to the prong which causes discomfort or even pain. Discomfort for sure. Dog associates the trigger with the discomfort and instead of making that trigger a positive thing it suddenly becomes a predictor of bad things happening. Reaction escalates and possibly changes to aggression. It truly happens far more often than people think.

NO collar should be popped. The truth is that anything around the neck or head shouldn't be used for anything more than a tag holder or a leash holder on a well trained dog. No head halters either and no front end restrictive harnesses. The neck is a fragile area and much unseen damage can occur from pressure on the neck. I use no leash for training in a safe area and a harness (I have a list of good ones) for walks and training with a collar to hold tags. Here's just one link to the damage that can be caused from a collar of any kind. There are many more available from reputable sources (not PETA). This article recommends Ruffwear products, which are great, but there are plenty of others as good as them or even better. I also have links to choosing a harness that doesn't put pressure where it shouldn't be if anyone is interested. My personal favorites are the Freedom harness and the Balance harness.

https://rehabvet.com/cat-dog-blog/harness-versus-collar/

We've learned so much in the last decade about the animal mind and animal behavior. I'm not saying for one minute that things like a prong don't work. They often work very well to stop a behavior. Just that. Stop a behavior. Punishment almost always works in the moment. Prongs work because they're uncomfortable and the animal wants to avoid discomfort. They don't teach what *to* do, which is really the goal of training. They can be a part of a training program that teaches desired behaviors, but most often aren't. As stated above, frequently punishment based techniques result in problematic associations that increase aggression and reactivity. If behavior modification is needed then reward based methods are the way to achieve that. The largest and fiercest animals on the earth are managed and trained using reward based methods and cooperative care and our dogs can be trained that way too. There really are SO many new ways to handle behavioral and training issues. Methods that have a minimal risk of fallout and are based on science. For a dog that is already exhibiting problem behaviors - and the behaviors described are very problematic for a breed like the CC - a good trainer will be invaluable. Even the best trainers benefit from someone watching their techniques and helping with timing, etc. Even trainers work with other trainers. It's why there's so much continuing education to be licensed. There's been so much progress in the behavior world and animals everywhere can benefit from this learning.

I've got my grandbaby here for the next few weeks. My oldest daughter lives 18 hours away and because of Covid we've only seen them three times in the 18 months since he was born. I'd be happy to clarify anything I said above, but I can't promise to be very thorough or get to it in a timely manner. Cute baby wins over internet forum, lol.

 

[Boxergirl]

I just came across this graphic that I thought was fitting for this topic.

 

[Loverboy Skyline]

I don't think training collars are good or bad, but for the average pet owner they are unnecessary. They do have uses for high level training, but I agree that pet owners don't need them, but they do need good instruction and lots of patience. BTW I searched through Shade Whitesel's page. Her claim is that she never used ecollars on her national level Schutzhund dogs, but she didn't mention prong collars. I also noticed seeing a choke collar in one if her pictures and I'm sure she's extra careful not to show a prong collar.

As for jumping, I found the best cure for me has been "no touch no talk no eye contact". This puts the dog in a calm state, and if he still jumps a mild verbal correction usually works in that kind of environment. You'll have plenty of time to play with your dog later.

 

[Boxergirl]

I don't think training collars are good or bad, but for the average pet owner they are unnecessary. They do have uses for high level training, but I agree that pet owners don't need them, but they do need good instruction and lots of patience. BTW I searched through Shade Whitesel's page. Her claim is that she never used ecollars on her national level Schutzhund dogs, but she didn't mention prong collars. I also noticed seeing a choke collar in one if her pictures and I'm sure she's extra careful not to show a prong collar.

As for jumping, I found the best cure for me has been "no touch no talk no eye contact". This puts the dog in a calm state, and if he still jumps a mild verbal correction usually works in that kind of environment. You'll have plenty of time to play with your dog later.

I have not seen any chokes or prongs used in recent images. Shade Whitesel did use prong, choke, and ecollars and has since moved away from them with her youngest dogs. I'm not sure if she uses martingales which look an awful lot like chokes sometimes. Just my observation.

 

[Loverboy Skyline]

I have not seen any chokes or prongs used in recent images. Shade Whitesel did use prong, choke, and ecollars and has since moved away from them with her youngest dogs. I'm not sure if she uses martingales which look an awful lot like chokes sometimes. Just my observation.

Shade’s Dogs | Shade Whitesel Dog Training (shadesdogtraining.net)

What kind of collar is Jesse wearing?

 

[Loverboy Skyline]

Also wanted to mention, have you tried the no-pull harness? It's a regular harness but it hooks on the front of the chest so when the dog pulls he naturally goes in your direction. Not sure how good it will work, but it might be worth a shot. Seems to me more humane than a gentle leader or other similar devices.

 

[Boxergirl]

Also wanted to mention, have you tried the no-pull harness? It's a regular harness but it hooks on the front of the chest so when the dog pulls he naturally goes in your direction. Not sure how good it will work, but it might be worth a shot. Seems to me more humane than a gentle leader or other similar devices.

Jesse is wearing a fur saver. It's not a choke.

I also wanted to make a note on no pull harnesses that have a strap that goes horizontally across the front of the chest. They work because they restrict front end movement and can be damaging to the dog. Front hook harnesses that are made like the Freedom, Balance, and Ruffwear harnesses don't do that.

 

[Loverboy Skyline]

Jesse is wearing a fur saver. It's not a choke.

I also wanted to make a note on no pull harnesses that have a strap that goes horizontally across the front of the chest. They work because they restrict front end movement and can be damaging to the dog. Front hook harnesses that are made like the Freedom, Balance, and Ruffwear harnesses don't do that.

Fur Saver, Martingale, and Choke Chain Collar are all the same to me. They are all training collars that work by choking (or strangling) the dog. Accomplished sport protection trainers far more qualified than me, whose opinions I respect more than my own, will even say that these choke type collars are worse than prong collars. When an expert uses a prong collar, the dog gets a pinch. So think of a pinch vs strangle. A pinch gets your attention but does no permanent physical harm while strangling can cause neck trauma. This analogy would not apply to a beginner who doesn't know how to use training collars. The typical beginner will strangle the dog no matter which training collar he uses. That's yet another reason why I'll agree with you that typical pet owners shouldn't use these collars. Their dogs are not required to obey commands instantly with near perfect form. Just obeying commands and not being a nuisance is more than sufficient for 99 pct of dogs. I myself, no longer use training collars on my BM because he's just going to be a pet.

 

[Boxergirl]

Fur Saver, Martingale, and Choke Chain Collar are all the same to me. They are all training collars that work by choking (or strangling) the dog. Accomplished sport protection trainers far more qualified than me, whose opinions I respect more than my own, will even say that these choke type collars are worse than prong collars. When an expert uses a prong collar, the dog gets a pinch. So think of a pinch vs strangle. A pinch gets your attention but does no permanent physical harm while strangling can cause neck trauma. This analogy would not apply to a beginner who doesn't know how to use training collars. The typical beginner will strangle the dog no matter which training collar he uses. That's yet another reason why I'll agree with you that typical pet owners shouldn't use these collars. Their dogs are not required to obey commands instantly with near perfect form. Just obeying commands and not being a nuisance is more than sufficient for 99 pct of dogs. I myself, no longer use training collars on my BM because he's just going to be a pet.

A fur saver doesn't have to choke and many competition dogs wear them during trials. It's my understanding from people that compete that fur savers are very seldom used as a choke or a training collar and are worn during competition since other collars are not allowed. I don't compete myself, so I can't say I know this from my own experience. That's actually the only picture I see with any of Shade's dogs wearing a fur saver, but as she's been pretty up front about her change in training, which is fairly recent, I'd bet that it's being worn during competition and when the leash is attached it's to the dead ring. I'm not sure why she'd lie about this when she's under an awful lot of scrutiny since she's changed her training philosophy, but I suppose it would be a good question to ask her if one wanted clarity. If my daughter or I end up attending a seminar or taking one of her classes I will ask for sure and report back.

And a martingale? That should never, ever choke. A martingale tightens just to the size of the dog's neck and really can't choke. A martingale only tightens to a certain degree to prevent slipping or backing out of the collar, unlike a choke that has no limit. They're made for dogs that slip their collars, like greyhounds or some dogs with heads smaller than their neck. I used one on my EM because she could back out of a regular collar and I only used it for taking her out to potty. I guarantee they don't work the same way as a choke chain. My point about all of these tools is that no neck collar should be popped, pulled, or the dog allowed to pull on them. This includes a flat collar. Damage can and does occur from all of them. A great deal of damage actually occurs from dogs pulling on flat collars. A harness is the best option all the way around, and it shouldn't be popped or yanked on either. Obviously this is my very strong opinion.

Editing to add that I agree that a choke is worse than a prong. I still don't think most people have any business using either of them.

 

[BattleDax]

I don't want to parse details of equipment further, or get into training theory and the mind of the dog, but I will mention something regarding prong collars that is a paradox:

You have many who think prong collars are cruel, and they're even banned in some countries. You also see a ton of average dog owners with them on their dogs! I'm talking like your young couple with kids strolling through the farmers' market. Bentley the Golden Retriever, or Aiden the Labradoodle is on the prong. It's just the dog's collar, presumably having gotten the dog to chill to a satisfactory degree with the pulling.

@Boxergirl , that's so cool your grandbaby and daughter there! Sounds wonderful!

 

[Michele]

I'm with Boxergirl. I am not a fan of the prong collar. Too many things could happen that are not good. If used incorrectly, could cause spinal cord damage, whiplash, trachea damage. And it could be perceived as punishment which might result in emotional and behavioral issues down the line.

There as so many more positive ways to go about training your dog.

 

[Loverboy Skyline]

I'm with Boxergirl. I am not a fan of the prong collar. Too many things could happen that are not good. If used incorrectly, could cause spinal cord damage, whiplash, trachea damage. And it could be perceived as punishment which might result in emotional and behavioral issues down the line.

There as so many more positive ways to go about training your dog.

As I already stated, I'm not a fan of the prong collar for 99 pct of dog owners who have dogs as pets. If you own a dog as a pet, I wholeheartedly think you don't need any type of training collar at all whether it's a prong, choke, or ecollar. They are totally unnecessary to teach basic commands and house manners.

At one time I was into Sport Protection where it's a totally different ballgame. Just one example of many is that the dog has to obey the commands almost instantly. That means if your dog moves in slow motion (like many mastiffs do) he won't be good enough to pass. Totally positive training is based upon the dog offering the behavior and then you mark that behavior. If the dog never offers it, where do you go? If you have a mastiff, you know that you can give some dogs all the motivating gestures in the world and still not get that voluntary fast response which comes more naturally to a well bred Belgian Malinois or German Shepherd. Compulsion cures this problem easily in a couple of sessions and once it's fixed you move on. Maybe it's possible to do with motivational techniques, but I'm sure it will take a lot of time and creativity. Maybe the root of all this is the competition itself which demands this type of perfection.

Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Shade Whitesel

A direct quote from Shade's Dog Academy site is "competing at the National level in IPO without the use of an e-collar". I think this leaves a lot of room for everything else. I'm not trying to downplay her accomplishments. I know how hard it is, and she definitely does a lot more positive stuff than 99 pct of the IPO trainers out there. Still, I would be skeptical before assuming that this is done with 100 pct positive methods when she doesn't even make that claim herself.

 

[BattleDax]

Speaking of prong collar use being so prevalent:

I did some dog walking for extra cash until Covid put and end to that. I've had two clients thus far who used the prong collar as their dogs' primary, every day go for a walk collar: Two English Bulldogs, and one Black Lab who was 13 years old when I started the job.

What a hassle to attach those collars. Yes, the Bulldogs tended to pull when the spirit moved them; but far more often they tended to put on the brakes and not want to move. Sheeeesh. The Lab: I used that prong for a few months, but just sort of decided to stop using it, as I was embarrassed to be seen using it – especially on a relatively well-mannered, senior dog with grey muzzle.

It just goes to that paradox I referenced above.

 

[Loverboy Skyline]

Speaking of prong collar use being so prevalent:

I did some dog walking for extra cash until Covid put and end to that. I've had two clients thus far who used the prong collar as their dogs' primary, every day go for a walk collar: Two English Bulldogs, and one Black Lab who was 13 years old when I started the job.

What a hassle to attach those collars. Yes, the Bulldogs tended to pull when the spirit moved them; but far more often they tended to put on the brakes and not want to move. Sheeeesh. The Lab: I used that prong for a few months, but just sort of decided to stop using it, as I was embarrassed to be seen using it – especially on a relatively well-mannered, senior dog with grey muzzle.

It just goes to that paradox I referenced above.

I see that too. Some people see the prong collar as an easy fix when other things don't work. To me that's the lazy approach. It's better to put in the time to train your dog properly, but hey, I can't force anything on anyone.

Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Shade Whitesel

I have another interesting quote from Shade's training site: "desire to teach other trainers and dogs how to be successful in the bitesports with as little aversives as possible."

I actually think that's a very good and honest statement. I'm beginning to like her! She didn't go out and say you can do it with no aversives! As little aversives as possible is what I was trying to do with my own dog in protection sports. That's why I used the clicker to train the retrieve instead of letting my club members put the barbaric forced retrieve on him! And yes, being able to reduce the aversives even more would be a good thing.

Even doglover85, who seems to think prong collars are worse than the plague, said something like you only need them for military and high level protection. I don't think the prong is for house pets either. So basically he agrees with me even though he's super anti-prong! IPO is basically a competition in military style training. It was conceived in Germany out of the need to have good breeding stock for military and police dogs.

 

[Boxergirl]

I hesitate to respond because this discussion isn't helping the OP at all, but I'm going to and I extend my apologies to the OP for hijacking this thread. Tracyhc, if you check back in please let us know how we can help further. I'd be happy to try to help you find a good trainer in your area. I really think you need one.

We can all interpret statements made in individual publications how we want. Shade herself has indicated repeatedly that in her own training of her personal dogs she chooses to use no aversives. She HAS titled dogs using no aversives. Fenzi Academy does not use instructors that employ compulsion techniques in their training. That's what Denise Fenzi is known for - training for sports positively - and we're a household that has taken many of the classes offered. Ms. Whitesel's goal now as a trainer appears to be to help others learn to train their dogs using the least amount of aversives they can for the sports they desire to compete in. That's what every reward based trainer strives for. To teach people how to do it better. Remember she's a crossover trainer so she has used other methods and is now working to teach other people how to reach their goal in a different way. I have seen no indication in the small R+ training world (it's huge but it's small when it comes to reputation) that she's fibbing about no longer using compulsion method for her own dogs. I think we may have to agree to disagree on this subject, Loverboy skyline as our interpretations of what we're reading seem to support our individual positions. FWIW, I think it's great that you trained your dog in your own way and as positively as you could. I'd love to see pictures if you have them. I don't think I've seen you post any.


Some additional quotes that may be of interest:

"Shade is an exceptional and unique trainer; she is known throughout the Schutzhund world as being one of the only trainers who trains without physical corrections AND competes successfully at the high levels with impressive scores. Her approach to training is creative, practical, and always focused on what's best for the dog and the relationship. Shade has an amazing perspective and wonderful words of wisdom to share." - https://www.myschutzhundlife.com/single-post/2016/12/07/shade-whitesel-interview

"Reik cemented my reputation as a trainer who could remain competitive in Schutzhund at the National level, while not using correction based tools." - http://shadesdogtraining.net/shades-dogs