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Need some advice regarding dog aggression

Tubarao'smom

Well-Known Member
So here is the back story. About 1.5 weeks ago out of the blue Chuva attacked my 13 year old female mutt dog. It was pretty intense but I was able to separate them, as soon as they were separated she went back after her and they went at it again, I was able to pull them apart again and no one was severely injured although I was really shook up. I have kept them separate ever since until tonight, I went out to feed and my 13 year old mutt dog ran in behind me and as soon as Chuva saw her she chased her down and it was on again, only this time it was MUCH more intense and I could not get them apart. I had to grab the closest thing which was a metal rod and wack at them, hitting them was not stopping it so in one last attempt I wacked Chuva pretty hard on the head and she released and seemed phased for just a second, and then again tried to grab her again. I was able to get them way away from each other but this time my mutt was punctured right above her eye, her eyeball is ok but DAMN.

I am at a lose. This is the one thing I HATE. I do not know what to do. I fear for my other dogs now, they spend time together during the day outside in their yard. What happens if she turns on someone when I am not around. I love Chuva but I love my other dogs too. Tubarao is not dog aggressive at all so this is something I do not know how to deal with. Suggestions?
 

Tylerg

Active Member
How long has chuva been part of the pack? Has it only been in the vicinity of food or anything else you can isolate? Have they always been amiable towards each other? How old is chuva?i had a dog that turned on my other when he reached maturity.. They went through a dominance role reversal.. There was several nasty fights then it was over.. The older dog relinquished his position of second in command and then it was done.. They got along great for the rest of their lives.. Not saying this is your case.. Just my experience.. It came on suddenly.. And ended fairly quickly.. All I could do was watch the like hawks and separate when it occurred..luckily no major damage done to either dog.. It is always nasty business when dogs fight..
 

CeeCee

Well-Known Member
Wow! I'm sorry this happened. There are so many possible triggers. It's going to be very important to break down these situations so you can understand what triggers the aggression.

Some things to look at:
1) What are the ages and genders of the dogs involved?
2) Where did the event take place? Inside? Outside? Were they in a large space or a small space? Was someone cornered? Was there a toy or food involved? Were there people around? Was one of the dogs getting attention? If so, who was getting attention and who approached who?
3) Where were each of the dogs and what were they doing before the fight?
4) What are the temperaments of each of the dogs i.e., confident, nervous, excited, etc.
5) What was each dog's state of mind before the fight?
6) Did one dog approach the other? If so, who approached who? How did they approach one another? What did the dogs communicate to one another during the approach? Did one of the dogs display avoidance? Did one dog give signals that said I don't want to you here and the other ignore it?
7) After the first fight, how did they behave towards one another?
8) After the previous fights, how were you feeling? Nervous? Scared? Pissed Off? Confident?
9) What was the overall mood/energy of the house before the fights?
10) What did you do after the fight?
11) Once the fight began, how did your 13 year old act/sound? Did she make high pitched/prey like sounds?
12) What is the size difference between the dogs?
13) How old is Chuva?
14) What are the ages and genders and temperaments of all the dogs in the household?
15) What is your leadership style? Do all the dogs understand 100% that you are in charge? Are you in charge 100%? When you tell them something, do you get compliance? Do your dogs defer to you?

It's gonna take some time to deconstruct all of this. In the meantime, to keep everyone safe, I would muzzle Chuva. For extra control, I would also leash her when the dogs are out together. This way the dogs can continue to be around one another, you can keep watching, and no one is going to get seriously hurt. I would also keep them separated when you are not around to supervise.

If you can answer these questions, I think we'll be able to give you much more targeted help.
 

Tubarao'smom

Well-Known Member
How long has chuva been part of the pack? Has it only been in the vicinity of food or anything else you can isolate? Have they always been amiable towards each other? How old is chuva?i had a dog that turned on my other when he reached maturity.. They went through a dominance role reversal.. There was several nasty fights then it was over.. The older dog relinquished his position of second in command and then it was done.. They got along great for the rest of their lives.. Not saying this is your case.. Just my experience.. It came on suddenly.. And ended fairly quickly.. All I could do was watch the like hawks and separate when it occurred..luckily no major damage done to either dog.. It is always nasty business when dogs fight..

We have had Chuva for 5 months now, they have lived together from day 1 up until a week ago. Chuva is 8 months old. There was no food involved and it happened out of the blue. Yes, they have always got along. My entire pack consists of 2 males and 4 females, everyone is fixed except Chuva and my male fila Tubarao.
 

Tubarao'smom

Well-Known Member
Wow! I'm sorry this happened. There are so many possible triggers. It's going to be very important to break down these situations so you can understand what triggers the aggression.

Some things to look at:
1) What are the ages and genders of the dogs involved?
2) Where did the event take place? Inside? Outside? Were they in a large space or a small space? Was someone cornered? Was there a toy or food involved? Were there people around? Was one of the dogs getting attention? If so, who was getting attention and who approached who?
3) Where were each of the dogs and what were they doing before the fight?
4) What are the temperaments of each of the dogs i.e., confident, nervous, excited, etc.
5) What was each dog's state of mind before the fight?
6) Did one dog approach the other? If so, who approached who? How did they approach one another? What did the dogs communicate to one another during the approach? Did one of the dogs display avoidance? Did one dog give signals that said I don't want to you here and the other ignore it?
7) After the first fight, how did they behave towards one another?
8) After the previous fights, how were you feeling? Nervous? Scared? Pissed Off? Confident?
9) What was the overall mood/energy of the house before the fights?
10) What did you do after the fight?
11) Once the fight began, how did your 13 year old act/sound? Did she make high pitched/prey like sounds?
12) What is the size difference between the dogs?
13) How old is Chuva?
14) What are the ages and genders and temperaments of all the dogs in the household?
15) What is your leadership style? Do all the dogs understand 100% that you are in charge? Are you in charge 100%? When you tell them something, do you get compliance? Do your dogs defer to you?

It's gonna take some time to deconstruct all of this. In the meantime, to keep everyone safe, I would muzzle Chuva. For extra control, I would also leash her when the dogs are out together. This way the dogs can continue to be around one another, you can keep watching, and no one is going to get seriously hurt. I would also keep them separated when you are not around to supervise.

If you can answer these questions, I think we'll be able to give you much more targeted help.

Ages of dogs involved Chuva is 8 months and female my mutt dog is 13 and female.

This happened outside in a yard we built just for the dogs it is a 6ft privacy fence, they were both inside and I was outside the fence feeding horses in the pasture directly behind the yard. No toy or food involved and no one was corned the yard is about an acre fenced in. This was the situation surrounding the first fight. The fight that took place last night was similar except Shelby my older dog ran into the yard as I went in to feed, as soon as Chuva saw her she jumped on her. No food was actually down in bowls.

Chuva has been the one to start the fight each time. She instantly jumped on her and the fight started. They have been separated and there was a weeks' time between the two fights. Chuva saw her again today and instantly tried getting at her again, so there is something there a grudge a desire to eliminate her, I don't know.

I cannot allow them around each other because it is clear that Chuva is not joking around. I am def. scared when they are fighting like that but I am a confident master and do what is necessary to control them. I separated them instantly after the fight and kept them away from each other. Shelby (the 13 year old dog) is a good sized dog herself so Chuva and her are about the same size but so are all of my dogs, they are large breeds. My older dog fought back once the fight started.

All of my other dogs the 13 year old dog included are all very social and do well with each other. We have had small little fights over the years but nothing this serious. The way Chuva attacks her reminds me of a pit dog fight, it is very intense and serious. My dogs do know I am in charge but I am not always with them 100 percent of the time, they do spend time alone together in their yard.

At this point even muzzled I do not trust Chuva. I worry that this will continue to escalate especially considering just the sight of the my older dog puts her back in fight mode.
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
Yikes.
I wish I had some helpful suggestions.
But... the intensity of the attacks worries me. I've heard some females will not abide living with another girl... and Chuva is entering that phase of her maturity.

My first action would be to make sure Chuva is COMPLETELY submissive to YOU...
That she did not stop fighting when you stepped in bothers me.

I'd be doing LOTS of obedience work with her and have her practicing her STAY - while you give attention to the other dogs... probably with Chuva tied to a fence or some furniture to make sure everyone stays safe during these exercises, too. This isn't to torture her, but to make it abundantly clear to her that YOU control the pack. period.
Put her on the BOTTOM rung of the ladder - and make sure YOU are at the top. Put everyone on NILF if you have to... to make sure there is no reason for any dog to take thing into their own paws, so to speak.

But... this is coming from a person who did all the above with just two dogs (starting with a 6 yr old male, then trying to integrate a new-to-us 1 yr old male)... and failed (after 3 years we got them to cohabitate 97% of the time, but we never really could relax completely). So, hopefully you'll get some better advice from others here.

If you have access to a behaviorist or trainer familiar with mastiffs and pack behavior, that might be helpful, too...
So sorry things are getting so stressful for you!
 

Tubarao'smom

Well-Known Member
Yikes.
I wish I had some helpful suggestions.
But... the intensity of the attacks worries me. I've heard some females will not abide living with another girl... and Chuva is entering that phase of her maturity.

My first action would be to make sure Chuva is COMPLETELY submissive to YOU...
That she did not stop fighting when you stepped in bothers me.

I'd be doing LOTS of obedience work with her and have her practicing her STAY - while you give attention to the other dogs... probably with Chuva tied to a fence or some furniture to make sure everyone stays safe during these exercises, too. This isn't to torture her, but to make it abundantly clear to her that YOU control the pack. period.
Put her on the BOTTOM rung of the ladder - and make sure YOU are at the top. Put everyone on NILF if you have to... to make sure there is no reason for any dog to take thing into their own paws, so to speak.

But... this is coming from a person who did all the above with just two dogs (starting with a 6 yr old male, then trying to integrate a new-to-us 1 yr old male)... and failed (after 3 years we got them to cohabitate 97% of the time, but we never really could relax completely). So, hopefully you'll get some better advice from others here.

If you have access to a behaviorist or trainer familiar with mastiffs and pack behavior, that might be helpful, too...
So sorry things are getting so stressful for you!

The intensity worries me as well this was not the typical dog spat but a much more fueled aggressive attack. The fact that she did not stop when I stepped in bothers me as well, but at this point I do not know why, or how to remedy it. She is much different than Tubarao personality wise, she is more high strung and cannot stand to sit still so training has been especially difficult. I have taught her basic commands such as sit and leave it, she will not touch any food or snack until I give her permission but that same command would not have mattered in the midst of the dog fight because it was like she had tunnel vision, could not see or hear anything I was trying to say.

Fila's are unlike any other dog i've had, so essentially I am learning as I go along. Tubarao is much different personality wise, so it is like I ended up with two fila's that are on the opposite side of the behavioral spectrum.
 

zebraworks

Well-Known Member
dog fights are definitely upsetting and worrisome and I also wonder sometimes what would happen if they were to go on without people around to try to stop them right away. the older dog isn't rolling over and giving in it seems? I had that problem too with a little male dog I have but now he has just given up and either avoids the other dog or is submissive but not because I did something to make it happen (it worked out on its own)...in a previous situation with that dogand another fila I got rid of one of them which is not easy if you have affection or money invested into the dog but I think it was going to be a casuality situation otherwise and I wasn't going to spend the time and effort to keep them separated.
 

Tylerg

Active Member
In nature one animal either gives up( becomes submissive)leaves.. Or in extreme cases(even in the wild ) fights to the death or sustains life threatening injuries..usually lower pack member squabbles are just that..squabbles.. Chuva may see herself as the alpha ..and Shelby also sees herself as the alpha.. Therefore the intensity of fights for that position are much more intense..if it happens again .. And you don't think your dogs will bite you(in the heat of the moment) I would dominate the aggressor first.. Take her to the ground and hold her there .. And when she submits.. Let her up..,scold her .. And drive her away from the other dogs .. If you don't believe in getting that physical..have a hose at the ready and spray ..I've always had males.. Giant breeds.. And there has been plenty of fights for dominance.. I was usually able to call them off.. But sometimes I'd have to pull them apart.. And then I'd do the above method.. Not hurt the dog .. Just take away his power..this might not be right for you.. Just a suggestion..sorry for your situation:( it's a problem that can get out of control..
 

QY10

Well-Known Member
I know it's not for everyone and it requires a lot of adjustment, but I'll throw it out there anyway - Crate and Rotate.

We have had to adopt the crate and rotate method with our two females (staffy and APBT) because they simply cannot be out at the same time without there being a fight. The fights are intense and neither female will submit or give in. It can be a terrifying experience when you're alone to try and separate them. There were times where the APBT had a hold of my Staffy's head and I thought she would be losing an eye because the APBT's teeth were right above and under the eye. All I could do was punch Cache in the head pretty hard in hopes that it would startle her enough that she would release her grip from Thalia - it worked and I had just enough time to grab each collar and rip them away from each other. I would never typically hit my dogs, but the fight broke out in our back field with no other conventional means of trying to separate them and I wasn't prepared to leave them to go find a break stick, water or anything else because I was afraid that if I took too long, I would come back and one of them would be dead or seriously hurt.

The fights started over toys - toys went away, then over treats - no more treats except in crate, food - dogs are only fed in their crates etc... It got to the point where if one picked up a stick to play with in the yard, the other would attack. If one was getting attention, the other would attack. There have been times where Thalia would try to attack Cache while she's in her crate or vice versa.

The APBT is my fiancees and the Staffy is mine. Neither of us are getting rid of our dogs, so we rotate them. While one is out for a few hours, the other is in her crate. They each get A LOT of exercise, partake in sports, get lots of one on one time and lots of time with Angus, our male mastiff mix.

We tried training and it didn't help. I honestly love the peace of mind that I get with the crate and rotate method. My fianc* and I work opposite shifts, so neither dog ever spends that much time in their crate and they take turns alternating who gets to sleep out of their crate each night.
 

mountainfila

Well-Known Member
Sounds like you need to up her exercise ALOT!! I have had one that was I swear a malinois trapped in a fila body lol, the dog had no off switch and was always on the go and she was like that until the day she died at 13. The only cure for her was run the snot out of her and be on her every step of the way, if you have a place you can take her to road her, do it, everyday. They just have to much energy and they need to release it some how and this is what you are seeing.

In all my packs of dogs I have had I am thee ALPHA and they are all the OMEGAS, that is how I see my pack, they are all treated the same and what I say goes. I do not have fights for dominance, they have nothing to be dominant over lol, I do have squabbles like if they play and someone gets grabbed to hard, the other will get a little upset but its stopped with a HEY! Both stop and look at me like OH shit were in trouble, so I think if you take more of a stand with her and let her know what side her bread is buttered on as well as all the rest, you should be able to bring peace to your home once again, people always think its the dogs with the issues but majority of the time it is us humans that are the cause of the issue our dogs have. You cant avoid the issue, get a basket muzzle and a dominant dog collar leerburg has them and start working both dogs together have chuva on leash and let your mutt dog just out and about if you can control her with your voice and start correcting chuva as soon as she sees her don't let it escalate you have to catch it almost as soon as or just before she starts to act up. And when you correct her you want to pull her up not back or side you want her up as high as her tip toes, she should stop as soon as you do this release tension on the leash tell her sit and good girl, repeat until she stops and is calm, then walk her a few feet, she acts up do it again, do it until she is only focused on you not the mutt dog and always have her on a leash. By doing this action of lifting them up it breaks the focus on the other dog and it doesn't take much as soon as the air supply starts to become compromised it switches the brain. You can do it, be the boss, be confident, show them you are the leader and they are the followers.
 

Sharrielynne

Well-Known Member
Hi Guys.
I had a pure bred shepherd and my son had a little bitsa, definitely terrier mix, they were together since they were pups, it got to where they were 2 and their relationship changed overnight. The fights were dreadful! I resorted to hitting the shepherd over the head with a saucepan to break the fights up! They had to be locked away out of sight of each other. Took the shepherd out one morning with the kids, (the bitsa had already been walked by my son aged about 11) one of my other boys went outside and the shepherd pushed past him to get Jilly the bitsa, it was really on inside the kitchen! It had been raining so the dogs wet feet and coats made it really hard to separate them, we were sliding everywhere, 2 of my 3 boys had minor bites, and I got several that needed stitches, we had them separated at one stage, but Jilly broke free and attacked Juno all over again. We managed to them locked away in different rooms and I took the kids straight away to the hospital to get their bites sorted and mine stitched (guess who had a visit from welfare to say I had neglected my kids because they were muddy and had gotton bitten) anyway I had to get rid of Jilly to a lovely couple because she started getting agressive to other dogs when my son took her out for walks, and I had to rehome Juno with a security firm, she was always used by my father when he was with securicor, so she was well trained for security work. The guy loved her and I saw her often. I had to get rid of them because welfare wanted to take me to court and take the kids because of having dangerous dogs. What a lot of **** I have no idea what started the disagreement between them, but they were both loving dogs to the family, just hated each other! They had plenty of exercise, were always fed separately, and lived happily together until they reached 2. After that I could not trust them to be together for even 1 second. I would love to know what changed between them that I hadn't noticed!
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
2 females are much different then 2 males. Females will not learn to accept each other once the fighting starts. They hold grudges and the fights will get more intense. Males will fight but they will get over it. The only safe thing to do at his point is crate and rotate. Leash in the house.
We had this issue with 2 female CC. My older CC, was only 3 at the time, was fine. Would ignore the younger (1year old when the fighting started, but we had her at 9 weeks) when they were out together. The pup would instigate, charge and attack. So she was leashed in the house or crated.
Still accidents can happen and one day she slipped past my husband, attacked our older girl who by then had had enough, and it was messy. Aurora was going to kill her :( My husband ended up with some pretty serious bites separating them and the pup was returned to her breeder.
There were other stability issues in play with the pup serious fear aggression, but I am not set up as a kennel.
 

AZ Boerboel

Well-Known Member
2 females are much different then 2 males. Females will not learn to accept each other once the fighting starts. They hold grudges and the fights will get more intense. Males will fight but they will get over it. The only safe thing to do at his point is crate and rotate. Leash in the house.
We had this issue with 2 female CC. My older CC, was only 3 at the time, was fine. Would ignore the younger (1year old when the fighting started, but we had her at 9 weeks) when they were out together. The pup would instigate, charge and attack. So she was leashed in the house or crated.
Still accidents can happen and one day she slipped past my husband, attacked our older girl who by then had had enough, and it was messy. Aurora was going to kill her :( My husband ended up with some pretty serious bites separating them and the pup was returned to her breeder.
There were other stability issues in play with the pup serious fear aggression, but I am not set up as a kennel.

This has been my experience as well. Males can be worked with, females… They will always go at it once it has started. I have issues between my Boerboel and my pug. We have to Crate and Rotate them or put a muzzle on the Boerboel so that when the pug attacks her she won't get killed or lose her other eye.
After the fights I've broken up between the two of them I can't imagine trying to separate two CC's.
 

Sharrielynne

Well-Known Member
Never heard of a dominant dog collar before today Mountainfila, so I checked it out. Very interesting site. I am learning something new every day on the forum. Mastiff forum rocks Yay!!!!!
 

Tubarao'smom

Well-Known Member
Thank you all for the advice. Yes, I do see that they will never be able to interact with each other again. Thankfully, I have the ability to house them separately. I will continue to work with Chuva on commands and such, I am learning as I go along with fila's and I suppose something like this is par for the course.
 

Tylerg

Active Member
All you can do is give them a good home.. And adjust right.. Not all dogs can get along..kinda like people :)