Proposed Diet:

[Marrowshard]

Alright, I think I got the husband convinced I can make a raw diet work. I wanted to start a new thread so I could focus on the diet itself and get advice when I run into problems (adjustment period, etc.).

The proposed diet:
Chicken Leg Quarters (bone-in, raw)
Rice (white, cooked)
Egg (raw, shell included)

She currently goes through a little shy of 4 cups of kibble a day, at two feedings. I'm still not sure if i should keep up two feedings or let her have a big breakfast and a smaller snack in the evening. Our two cats are already on a twice-daily feeding so it's easiest to just to everyone at once.

I was thinking 1 Leg Quarter, about a cup total of rice, and 1 egg as a daily routine. Since I can't give her her commercial treats, I thought I'd go with raw chicken livers. I already buy them for myself, and they're pretty cheap so it's no big deal to stock up.

Hopefully by keeping it simple (chicken, rice and egg ONLY), we can get rid of her food allergy/sensitivity. She's showing some pinkish blotches on her less heavily-furred skin but is otherwise fine.

Any feedback/suggestions for the diet, feeding schedule, what to expect etc. would be most welcome ... I'm planning on switching her this weekend.

~Marrow

 

[Marrowshard]

Day One:

Everything's going well so far. Ebony was very excited this morning when she noticed me prepping something new for her breakfast. She got a whole chicken leg quarter and 1 cup of rice. She was a little puzzled about the chicken at first and kept trying to remove it from her dish to go chew on it elsewhere. After coaxing her back to her bowl, we could hear her crunch the bones a bit, then she chewed on the whole thing for a while and devoured it. The rice went down easily, and she went around cleaning up her own shrapnel afterward. Every grain of rice and every gob of drool was sucked down right away. She acted like she was still hungry, but I want to take it easy on the amounts for a bit until I figure out what she really NEEDS.

This evening, she got a half-cup of rice and a raw egg. I didn't know if she'd go for the egg right away, so i cracked it a little and smooshed it into the rice so she could smell what was inside. She was curious again, but after she figured it out she was very happy! We ended up with some egg on the floor, but she cleaned that up quickly. For her after-dinner treat/obedience, I gave her two raw chicken livers. Again, she was a little confused, but happy once she knew what they were.

She seems pretty contented, and displayed a lot more enthusiasm for her food than I'd seen with her kibble (not surprising). I'm anxious to see whether this helps her allergies. She's definitely showing some irritation in her ears again (though we're keeping them clean) and we've noticed reddish patches kind of like hives on her skin where the fur is thinnest. She doesn't act like she's itchy, so it looks like a really mild allergy.

~Marrow

PS - cats are SUPER jealous

 

[Marrowshard]

Ugh -

Diarrhea and puking at 5 this morning. She coughed up something that looks like part of a cow hoof and then what appears to be the head of a chicken femur.

At least she whined first so I could wake up to let her out to do her business.

Hoping this is all just part of the cold-turkey diet change and not a regular thing!

~Marrow

 

[Marrowshard]

Day Four:

Eb's stool is still very loose, but at least she's not waking me up at odd hours with an emergency. She hasn't thrown anything up since we started boning the quarters for her morning meal, so I think we'll keep doing that for the time being. She seems to enjoy the plain rice as much as the rest of the meal; sometimes she scoots the egg out of the way to finish the rice first.

I've noticed she's drinking a lot less water, although she still has plenty of drool and pee so it seems to just be a consequence of a moist meal rather than dehydration. Her ears are clean but have been showing signs of irritation to go along with the rash on her skin. A close examination of her skin in the "usual spots" i.e. armpits, underbelly, ears etc. showed what looks (to me, at least) to be reduced redness. It's entirely possible I'm just overly optimistic and WANT her to stop reacting though.

She still loves her chicken liver treats, and I'm now thinking about using our food dehydrator to make liver chewies for her to save on the bloody mess of digging out fresh ones. She doesn't appear to chew them anyway so I'm not sure she even tastes it LOL.

A few bumps so far, but mostly positive so far especially considering her age and unknown medical history.

~Marrow

 

[leelee]

Hi, I feed raw and I'm curious if this is the diet your keeping her on? Or....will things be changing down the road? I'm also curious why the rice. Please don't think I'm knocking your choice just trying to understand it

 

[Marrowshard]

I'd like to change things up down the road; my husband hunts, and I've asked him to please save this year's edible organs for dog food. Plus, there's a Jennie-O plant not too far away that we can use for bulk turkey parts and we have a garden that I'm sure will produce surplus potatoes and squash. The main reason for keeping it strictly chicken/egg/rice is because our vet advised us to start bland to try and nail down what she's reacting to in her kibble. I've heard it's usually corn/wheat, but if it happens to be milk/whey or soy, keeping it simple should give us a place to start. We're going to try and keep the same strict diet for 6-8 weeks; after that we will probably start intoducing more variety if she's able to tolerate it. Right now we're still trying to tackle her loose stools and waiting to see if her rash/ears clear up. I guess I didn't have a solid reason for choosing rice over another carb like sweet potato, other than that it's cheap and I have a rice steamer that makes large batches. I'm completely open to suggestions for a long-term complete meal or advice for firming up her poops!

~Marrow

 

[leelee]

Hmm. OK well a true raw diet has no grains, veg or fruit. It consists of raw meat wrapped around a little bone and supplemented with organs once in a while. Here's a couple websites to check out http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/

 

[Marrowshard]

I think I erred in saying "raw diet" when I apparently meant "non-processed". We haven't been cooking the chicken or the egg and don't intend to.

I did check both links, it looks like maybe she needs some bone in her meal to firm things up? We had tried just giving her the chicken quarter whole, but even through she broke the bone up she still puked three times during the night (it was a looong night), sometimes with bone pieces. I've heard that giving the parts frozen can slow them down enough to chew, but my worry then is that she'll gnaw the meat off then try to swallow the bone. Should i be trying to add bone meal?

I would have no problem trying to go 100% meat/bone/organ but that seems awfully high in protein to me, and I thought the idea was to keep that around 25% or so. I may have misheard. Really just doing things by trial and error, but our primary concern isn't variety at this point as much as it is clearing up her skin/ears.

~Marrow

 

[Marrowshard]

Day Six:

Eb is still enjoying her meals, although her skin's getting worse. I've heard from some sites that the kibble-to-meat transition can bring lots of physical catastophe before everything evens out i.e. "molting" coat, greasy skin, etc. Where Eb used to have a mild rash near her ears and armpits she now has big red lumps. She's not scratching at them and doesn't seem bothered when I take a closer look so I don't think they're causing her discomfort. Her inner ears are still inflamed although there's only a scant amount of wax in them. We've been cleaning them weekly and getting about 1 1/2 q-tips of light brown (normal) ear wax. We don't jam them in her ear canal, just around the outer bits, but everything in them looks inflamed. At this point I'm not sure if it's a skin infection that's also in her ears, or more allergic irritation, or a side-effect of the new diet or a combination of all three.

I'm trying NOT to call the vet, because I don't want to jump to that every time there's a minor problem, but I'm not really sure how to lessen the inflammation. I rubbed some Corona around the bases of her ears before I left for work (she didn't seem to mind that, either), so we'll see if that has any effect.

~Marrow

 

[Cody]

Hmm. OK well a true raw diet has no grains, veg or fruit. It consists of raw meat wrapped around a little bone and supplemented with organs once in a while. Here's a couple websites to check out http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/

While I do not feed raw, I know many ppl who have been doing it for years and they all add Veg.
My pup was fed raw from the get go and one of her fav treats is a whole carrot to gnaw on, and banana pieces.
Vegetables are an important aspect of the BARF diet as well;
http://www.barfworld.com/html/barf_diet/barfdiet_specific.shtml

 

[leelee]

Well then there feeding B.a.r.f which is different then prey model raw diet. I have no problem with either. Both are better then kibble. However if you notice when you feed the carrot it comes out unprocessed, that's because a dogs digestive track can't break it down.

 

[Marrowshard]

Right now we're not giving Eb any veg or fruit (although she enjoys strawberries and lima beans) just to keep it simple. We were advised to start with a bland, consistent diet and I eventually settled on the chicken-egg-rice as both cost-effective and palatable. I'm sure we'll be switching things up down the road. Like I said, we're mostly concerned with getting her skin and ears under control and of course I'd like to see some firmer poops! I'm always worried when I leave for work that I'll come home to a mess in the kennel!

~Marrow

 

[Cody]

Yes, but in the wild when Canines hunt, they eat mainly vegetarian animals, usually starting with the organs which contain partially digested vegetation. They also forge for vegetation, fruit and berries.
Not trying to cause any arguments, I just believe that they need a balanced diet. Same as being a human vegetarian, it is not as easy as just eating veg. You need to do it properly to maintain one's health and be sure to get enough protein.
JMHO

 

[leelee]

OK, well that's your belief and that's fine I will however direct you to this http://www.rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html not for an argument just so you understand my belief. At any rate the only reason I chimed in on this subject of diet is because I'm vegan and have been for 15 years. When I started this path a lot of research was done on my part. And when people decide their going to go vegan too and just eat salad and then say "I got sick and was tired and did'nt feel good so I will never be vegan!" irratates me because it's not the " vegan diet" that did'nt work it's the person not researching it. So I would hate for someone like Marrow to think that if her dog get's sicker or dosen't take well to this change in eating, that she will think it didn't work for her dog and go back to kibble, when in fact her dog would flourish from it if done properly. That's all

 

[Marrowshard]

We took her to the vet this morning for the reddish bumps on her skin. The said said "wow ... they're huge!" (something I tried to tell her over the phone). Apparently she's got a skin infection (probably staph) and will have to go back on her antibiotics to lick it. I told the vet we were a day shy of the 1-week mark on the new diet. She said an allergy to chicken or egg is unlikely but certainly not impossible, and the rapid onset of the rash and lumps seems to indicate it's the result of a change in her diet or environment. We haven't changed her environment, so that leaves diet. Pretty sure it's not the rice, so we'll probably keep feeding that, but we now need another option for the meat OR we need to find a suitable grain-free kibble. We've got venison in the freezer, but not enough to feed the dog AND ourselves until November. A local locker has ground rabbit and I have a friend whose family butchers cattle, so beef may be an option as well. It's my job for tomorrow to figure out a new diet to go along with her antibiotics

~Marrow

 

[leelee]

And my point was just proven. Now will go bang my head into a wall.....

 

[Marrowshard]

I'm not switching her right back to kibble, and there's really no need to be rude anyway. We live in a rural area, so finding exotic/novel meats to try on Ebony usually means either a long drive or a premium price or both. I would like very much to keep her on a meat-based diet, but I have to factor in cost and availability. My husband and I can take care of Ebony, but we're by no means rich and if we have to choose, we need to keep paying for her antibiotics and ear drops before trying to figure out how to get kangaroo meat. Her skin is horribly infected and while it's not certain she's allergic to the chicken in her current diet, the correlation is strong enough to prompt me to find another meat or, failing that, a grain-free kibble.

Going back to kibble is not my preference, but I have to consider Ebony's allergies before i worry about pleasing her palate.

~Marrow

 

[Marrowshard]

We found a venison/brown rice kibble that uses chicken fat for Vitamin E but does not contain chicken meal/meat at all and only lists "egg product" down around ingredient #20. No wheat, corn, millet, etc. It has venison in slot 1, then rice or rice derivatives for the next 4 or so. There's beet pulp for fiber, sunflower and soy oils for fat (way down the list), etc. Hopefully that should mean any wheat/corn/chicken/egg allergies would be eliminated. We're feeding a small amount of kibble and supplementing it with the plain rice she likes so much and some raw venison from the freezer.

Her bumps are still there, but they're not as red as they were a few days ago. Whatever it was hit her pretty hard and spawned a bad skin infection so it's hard to tell whether it's the allergy or the infection that's getting better. Of course, the goal is BOTH but at this point I'd take anything that eases her symptoms.

~Marrow

 

[Dogue]

Dogman#1 referred me to this Fila breeder up North (Sacramento, CA). She has an awesome webpage. Any rate, she feeds her Filas a raw diet. She actually has a rescipe and gives a task analysis on how to do it. It's awesome! Here's the link. http://www.delalunakennel.com/information/raw-food-diet-what-we-feed/

 

[monkeys23]

This diet looks very unbalanced to be and very limited variety wise. Cut out the rice alltogether for starters. Its useless filler, nothing more.

Chicken quarters are great for transition, but they (and eggs) should only be a small portion of the total diet once you are transitioned.

The goal after full transition should be 80% muscle meats 10% organ meats (5% of that liver) and 10% bone in the form of RMB's ideally (like chicken Q's or turkey necks, etc.)... these are only rough guidelines, some dogs need more bone in.

Lily I have to keep right at 10% bone... anymore than that and she gets chalky crumbly poo... a sure sign of too much bone!
Scout the foster gets more bone in stuff because she can't handle as many rich boneless meals as Lily can... so she gets a little more RMB's and less rich bonesless meals.

Red meats are very nutritional. I feed a lot of beef heart, beef tongue, deer and elk meat, etc. for our boneless meals. Fish is also a good addition, especially long chain Omega 3 rich fish like Sardine and Mackeral. I feed a meal of whole frozen sardines once a week as part of their overall diet. I shoot for balance over the entire week and their meals are planned with that in mind obviously.
Green tripe is another good addition. www.greentripe.com is a great source if you are out west. I love their mix that includes trachea/gullet with the green tripe.... great source of natural joint support and good digestive enzymes! And yes green tripe, trachea, and gullet all count in the muscle meat category...

I very strongly suggest you check out this site and its guidelines for transitioning your dog properly onto prey model raw: http://preymodelraw.com/
I also suggest you pick up Tom Lonsdale's books: "What Works" and "Raw Meaty Bones"... they are probably the best raw feeding books out there.

Dogs don't need anything beyond the proper variety of meat/RMBs/organs, but if you feel you need to feed veggies, fruits, and root veggies like sweet potato/carrot... puree the veggies/fruits and any root veggies/starchy things need to be cooked and mashed for them to get anything out of it at all. Dog's digestive systems cannot breakdown the cellular structure of the plant matter otherwise. It just passes through looking exactly the same.

I do give my dogs veggies and fruits and treats while I'm prepping my own food because they enjoy eating them.... its a treat though and not part of the balanced PMR diet they eat on a daily basis.

Another good site for research: http://www.rawfed.com/myths/

Do your research and if you are going to feed raw do it right. Don't screw up your dog's health by an improperly researched diet. If you do it right there is absolutely nothing better!! I researched for years before actually taking the plunge and I'm kicking myself for not doing it earlier. Its not that hard, but you MUST do it right!!!

---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------

Also I'm betting her issues are caused by the imbalanced diet, but could also be environmental allergies.

A properly balanced PMR diet with proper transition will solve this better than a good grain free kibble will. I speak as someone with dogs who can't handle any grains, even rice, and used to feed high quality grain free kibble.

Most vets will not support raw because of the lack of good nutrition education they get in vet school. Unless they have a passion for truly digging into what dog really need.... odds are they won't support you. Especially because of the number of people who feed raw very horribly wrong... like doing only chicken quarters or only raw hamburger...

I feel very very lucky that I have a vet who is well educated and supports my decision.