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Should we Stud out our dog?

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afidz

Active Member
A little back story, we are getting our male EM in 19 days. We have not decided if we are going to pay the breeder for rights to breed our puppy. Its an additional $300

Is it worth paying the breeder the extra money to stud him out?

I know for him to be desirable we would have to show documentation that he has healthy jeans, so lets say he does, how easy would it be to find someone that wants to breed with my dog?

The breeder said that we could charge $1000 for the first time or until he proves himself and then charge somewhere between 12 and 15 hundred, is that accurate?

She also said that either we would have to house the bitch for 3 days or we would have to let someone else house our dog for 3 days, that makes sense I guess, but it makes me uneasy. We can't have a female in heat in our home. We have another male dog and even though he is not intact, I don't want to take the chance of a fight breaking out over dominance.

How often do you breed a male?

Are there signs that we can look for as a puppy that would indicate that he wouldn't successfully breed?

When do you stop breeding a male?
 

Tunride

Well-Known Member
The first thing I would check is- have his parents shown, are they Champions, are you planning on showing? Testing for breeding is going to cost a couple thousand and can't be done, I believe, until they are 2 yrs. old. If not I would not bother with the full AKC. You need to have a superior dog to use for stud and there are way to many 'great pups' from 'great dogs' that find their way to rescues and shelters. Just my opinion. I'm sure one of our members who have a kennel, or show stock will jump in here to answer your questions.
 

WalnutCrest

Well-Known Member
First, they are genes not jeans.

Second, only the very top few males are worth ever using at stud. How do you determine quality? Genetic testing (PRA, cystinuria, etc.) is one tool as is structural testing (xrays for hips and elbows, echocardiogram by a cardiologist, etc). Show him to his CH in limited exposure (if it takes you longer than a couple of months of serious showing at the biggest shows with the most Mastiffs present and being shown by a professional handler, it took too long) and get his CGC. If you show him to a CH yourself, and you're just learning how to show, it might take you a good 6+ months of actively showing to get the CH (which is OK, as you're just learning how to exhibit your boy). You should show your pup one weekend between 6-9 months and again between 9-12 months, and a couple of times between 12-18 months, with serious showing after he hits 18 months as you do not want to get a CH on a younger dog (which does happen) only to have that dog "fall apart" when they're older (which also happens) -- you want the judge to assess your boy in his nearly adult form not as a cute and happy puppy.

To do all of that will cost you somewhere in the range of 3000 for a week bred pup out of a quality litter, another 1500 for testing, and maybe 3-5000 to get his CH (if shown by a pro -- more if you show him as travel, lodging and entry fees for a new owner-handler can really add up), plus a few hundred more for the CGC.

Then, after all that, you wait for inquiries to use him.

Reputable stud owners do not seek to sell stud service on Craigslist, pet finder, or similar places. You could post a stud notice on Devine Farm's website and/or on the World Mastiff Forum (google can help you find both of them). Then wait to be contacted.

Then, when contacted, a reputable stud owner will turn down a majority of inquiries because most of the people contacting you will only be thinking about breeding and owning dogs as a way to make money.

And, if people think you're in it for a profit, you will not be considered reputable and reputable people (which, generally, will be the people with the nicest specimens in the breed) will not want to use your boy at stud. I've seen superb males not get used very often because their owners are total asses. I've seen lower-quality males get used often because their owners market the HELL out of their boy and are indiscriminate as to who gets to use him (or charges too little for a stud fee).

I'm happy to discuss any/all of this (plus more) on the phone -- feel free to drop me a private message with your number and a few times that work and I'll contact you.

If you'd rather not do that, if you publicly post the pup's pedigree (his registered name, the parents registered names and the grand-parents registered names) ... and ... good pictures (i.e., stacked pictures in profile where all angulation can be easily seen, plus a close up of the head from the front and the side) of all six of the adults, we can use that as a starting place to determine whether or not your boy MIGHT be worth using at stud.
 

WalnutCrest

Well-Known Member
<snip>

we are getting our male EM in 19 days

<snip>

You may want to call me before you've paid the full price for the pup ... based on the totality of your original post, once we're done discussing your thought process and the way this breeder has discussed their dogs, these pups and their ideas about what makes one Mastiff an awesome Mastiff, I may encourage you to find a different breeder (and no, I do not have any pups on the ground -- not trying to sell anything). :)
 

afidz

Active Member
She had give me the full pedigrees before and I have lost where I wrote it down. We aren't planning on showing him, we simply want a family companion and possibly a therapy dog. The dog we were supposed to get came from a sire with national and international titles, but that has changed since the mother reabsorbed last weekend. I don't know very much about this pups lineage other than who the patents are and where they came from
I'm not sure what in my previous post might suggest that the breeder is bad, I've done so much research on her, her facility, and the other breeder that she teams up with. I've spent several hours with her on the phone, she seems to really care about the pups that come from her facility and care for the mastiff breed in general. I scoured the Internet looking fora bad review. The breeder claimed that in her career as a breeder she had one pup returned to her on contract because the puppy had joint problems. She latest found out the dog was on puppy food for a year. So if what she states is true, it wasn't her fault.
And I know it's genes. I was typing fast, not paying attention. didn't know I would be chastised for not proof reading.

I'm starting to think that this website is not the place for me, everyone is so serious and unfriendly. I am very excited for the next addition to my family and I don't want to be in a place where I'm made to feel bad about myself or my decision to get a mastiff
 

WalnutCrest

Well-Known Member
You asked about breeding.

That's a very different proposition than pretty ownership.

Those of us who breed for the betterment of the breed take it seriously.

This is a great group of knowledgeable people. You and your pup would be well - served if you'd stick around and benefit from the years of experience.
 

musicdeb

Well-Known Member
afidz, I would say we are compassionate about our dogs not serious. Breeding can cause a lot of members to "give it to you straight" because too many BYB's have no idea what they are doing with breeding dogs and many dogs end up in the animal shelter and as we know, most dogs do not make it out alive. :(

I agree with WalnutCrest, hang in there. This is best forum out there about mastiffs.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Gotta say I'm less than impressed with your breeder too, just based on your description of what she's telling you.

Before you breed he needs to have a fairly signifigant list of health tests done, Walnut Creek mentioned them above. Many of those cannot be done till the dog is two years old. He needs to have done something that proves his "worthiness" to be bred. I don't personally care if you show conformation or not, but a therapy cert is a good start. But DO something with him, title him in agility, obedience, rally, that sort of thing, along with the therapy cert to prove his genes are worth passing down.

I'm sorry you feel you got jumped on, but I can also say that if you expected a "go for it!!!" response from this forum you didn't spend much time reading around here either before posting. Many of the members here have dealt with the heart-break of a poorly bred dog from someone who really didn't have a clue. It can result in not only physical health problems, but also mental health problems. And thats likely why Walnut was less than impressed with your miss-spelling......

If you're truely interested in learning about breeding, and breeders then absolutely hang around and ask questions. If you wanted a place who'll cheer you on for breeding a pup without putting any effort into finding out if you have a clue then you came to the wrong place.
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
I too had a breeder that tried to convince me that I should stud out my puppy once he grew up. Which to me the fact that your breeder is using positive dollar amounts it does sound as if they are trying to 'sell' you on the benefits of studding him. There should be more to selling the breeding rights than asking if the puppy buyer wants to spend an extra $300. Just my opinion.
Here's my experience:
Kryten is a gorgeous dog to look at and based on what I know and understand about the breed standard (which is not enough to truly make an fully informed opinion) he fits for a still immature male (2 years 5 months). The outside looks great. The problems are on the inside. He has elbow dysplasia, something he has had since he was 5 months old when the bones didn't form properly. The only way to know is by X-ray. This is where the structural testing that WalnutCrest mention comes into importance. Had he been bred without testing he could have passed that onto his pups and let me assure you it is not an easy diagnosis to receive and treatment is long, expensive and there is no cure.
I'd say since that you are looking for a companion pet take him as that or given that $300 is just going to be a drop in the bucket over what you will spend on him over his life spend it so you have full control over when/if you neuter and take your time to decide if you want to do all the testing to ensure that you don't help to create unhealthy puppies.

This is a great group for support, help and just to share stories about your dog(s). Unfortunately you touched the major hot button topic which is going to get very strong opinions that may not be stated in a way that you agree. Don't let this one topic spoil the entire forum for you.
 

el gato diablo

Well-Known Member
At least it's not a 'rare breed'...we're headed in the right direction I suppose. The fact that your breeder mentioned to you the fees you could potentially charge and apparently nothing about the fees you would incur to get to the level of stud potential (health testing, certifications, etc.) says to me, she is motivated by money...not breed betterment. You asked a simple question in your title 'Should we stud out our Dog', I will give you a simple answer...No.
 

QY10

Well-Known Member
I personally believe that there are enough puppies and dogs out there who are strays, being abused/neglected and living their lives out in shelters with the threat of being euthanized that we don't need to add to those numbers.

There are plenty of long-term, knowledgeable breeders who have been striving for the betterment of breeds and have the abilities and resources to deal with anything that comes their way.

Are you in a place to help financially and physically care for the puppies?

Have you thought about how you'll go about finding the puppies a good home to minimize the likelihood that they'll end up in a shelter somewhere?

What if all of the puppies don't sell? Are you able to keep them and raise them?

My boy, Angus, came from a backyard breeder (not trying to assume that is what you will be). The people didn't know what they were getting into, supposedly had multiple litters on the ground at once... weren't financially or physically able to keep up with upwards of 30-something puppies and as a result, gave Angus' litter (10 or 11 pups in his litter) away for free. He is a Mastiff American Staffordshire Terrier X, although we were told he was a purebred American Staffy. He and his siblings are prime candidates for being picked up for dog fighting, for being used to guard grow-ops etc... Not to mention people picking up a pup thinking it will be 50-60lbs and they end up with a 90lb + dog with a personality that is quite a bit different then they were expecting... and it was literally a first come first serve deal... whoever showed up for a puppy, got a puppy. I feel very fortunate that my family and I were able to take 4 puppies (mom took 2, dad took 1, I took 1) but we will never know what happened to his other siblings.

I'm just trying to offer another perspective. I know for me personally, I could not live with myself if I were Angus' "breeders". Not knowing who took the puppies, if they went to good homes, or if they were being kicked around, made to fight or guard illegal operations, living in a shelter because the family could handle a 50lb dog, but not a 90lb dog etc...
 

NYDDB

Well-Known Member
Re; the "seriousness" of this forum.

This is what makes this place so valuable-- that there are members here with expertise and knowledge that is very difficult to find- and trust- elsewhere. That there is such integrity is just priceless, in my opinion, and helps anchor this forum in reality, so to speak.

Not that there isn't silliness and fun- as we all fiercely love our dogs- but the "seriousness" of a misguided decision, especialy when it comes to breeding, cannot be understated, or taken lightly.

I hope you keep an open mind, learn, and enjoy your new mastiff along the way.
 

cayeesmom

Well-Known Member
Re; the "seriousness" of this forum.

This is what makes this place so valuable-- that there are members here with expertise and knowledge that is very difficult to find- and trust- elsewhere. That there is such integrity is just priceless, in my opinion, and helps anchor this forum in reality, so to speak.

Not that there isn't silliness and fun- as we all fiercely love our dogs- but the "seriousness" of a misguided decision, especialy when it comes to breeding, cannot be understated, or taken lightly.

I hope you keep an open mind, learn, and enjoy your new mastiff along the way.


Very well said! agree 100%!
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
I hope you do stick around here on the forum - it's an amazing group of people.

Breeding is a big responsibility... and I give you credit for asking the question - it sounds like you're giving it serious thought - and as you heard above, it's not just about letting your dog have a few days of fun with a new girlfriend.:p

That you have another male dog at home would make it hard - as you mentioned - to have a bitch in heat around... you'd probably want to send him somewhere (friend, relative, boarding) while the 'girlfriend' is over - otherwise you could instigate some arguments between the boys. Not sure if the other one is neutered or not, but if not... the bitch's owner would probably require him to be offsite, to eliminate the potential to mix the sires in the litter.

It sounds like a big headache to me - for someone looking for a companion, therapy and all-around family dog... I'd avoid it... but, I'm lazy that way.

On the other hand... if you keep him intact, find him to be of excellent temperament (by way of CGC and therapy work), show (or let someone else show) him to prove his worthiness to the physical standard... and someone asks you if he's available - THEN you might find it valuable to do all the genetic testing, hips, elbows, etc - in order to support betterment of the breed with what you've found to be an excellent representative. If you think that's a possibility... what's an extra $300? ... considering that's maybe 4 months worth of puppy food? :) Initial costs are just a drop in the bucket for these big dogs, so if you want to keep the option on the table and like your breeder... why not sign up for "full" rights to your pup? It doesn't mean you HAVE to stud him out... just that you have that option available.

So... I gather now, that the puppies aren't on their way? (mother reabsorbed them?) What's your timeline now? Does the same breeder have other litters on the way?
Waiting for a puppy is HARD!!!!
I hope you come back and share some pictures of your new guy!
 

afidz

Active Member
Thank you for being the only person to not treat me like a monster. I've never had a full breed dog before, all I'm trying to do is figure out what the heck I'm doing and make the best decision for my dog. And I was attacked for it. If we were to breed him we agreed that it would only be with a distinguished breeder because we don't know what we're doing. I would never allow myself to be the reason why several dogs had to live in shelters or suffer from health problems. The breeder we are getting him from isn't trying to push us to breed him. It is simply an option that she informed us we had. There wasn't a formal discussion about breeding. Again, I don't understand why people are quick to jump on her back and insinuate that she is a bad breeder. Have you looked at her website? Have you called her? Have you looked into the lineage of her dogs? If you answered no, than get off that horse.
The breeder already has a litter on the ground. Originally she set aside one of the pups for herself but she felt bad when the pups reabsorbed so she offered him to us. That litter is just over 5 weeks old. We are bringing him home on July 17th. Original name was going to be Apollo but my boyfriend feels that since Apollo was reabsorbed we can't use that name. Now we are going with Menelaus
 

cinnamon roll

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
Breeding is a very very touchy subject on here, and it is not taken lightly. i am sorry that you feel you were attacked.

A true breeder has only one goal in mind, and that is to better the breed all around. Many of people have been burned by "backyard breeders". Sick dogs etc

I know it may sound harsh to hear it, but we have many respectful breeders on here that are trying to completely honest with you. Breeding is a HUGE commitment not only money but also time wise.
 

afidz

Active Member
I'm not saying it isn't a huge commitment. I am asking innocent honest questions because I am new to the breed in general. There is absolutely no reason to be rude to me.
I am a staff member on an international forum, if I saw anyone being treated the way that I am, I would of stepped in and stopped it. I've done nothing wrong.
 

cinnamon roll

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
And you got honest answers to your questions.

If you look at the history of what has happened to our breeds you might understand why we do not take breeding lightly. Or the people that have put out many many thousands of dollars due to a poor breeding, or had to put a dog down from this.

I do not feel that I needed to step in. I do not feel that you were bashed in any way,shape or form. If I thought it was out of hand I would of stepped in.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
I'm not saying it isn't a huge commitment. I am asking innocent honest questions because I am new to the breed in general. There is absolutely no reason to be rude to me.
I am a staff member on an international forum, if I saw anyone being treated the way that I am, I would of stepped in and stopped it. I've done nothing wrong.

Dude, you want rude.... "WTF, do you think you're doing?!!?? Are you a fucking troll??! DON'T BREED YOUR DAMN DOG!!" Which actually HAS been the response to a couple folks.....

And now you're all up in arms cause you got blunt responses. Would you honestly have been happy if we'd said "oh cool, you're going to breed? Let us know when you have pups!"

Trust me, we appreciate that you're asking questions. The miss-spelling of genes in particular came across as ignorant, but we do appreciate asking questions. And a breeder who's point of trying to get you to buy the breeding rights to your pup by selling you on how much money you can make? Um no, not impressed, no matter what else the qualifications are honestly.

But since we're on a roll asking questions....

What health tests has your future pup's parents had? They should have had the same list Walnut mentioned above.

Hip cert via either Pennhip or OFA (2yrs old or older)
Elbow cert via OFA (2yrs old or older)----I had Apollo's hip and elbow certs done at the same time, total cost: over $600
Eye cert via CERF or OFA (2yrs of age and then yearly) --I had Apollo's done via a club show, so the rate was reduced, I paid $37
Heart cert via OFA -- I had Apollo's done via a club show, reduced rate $37
Thyroid cert via OFA (starting at 1yr of age and then regularly) -- I haven't had Apollo's done officially, basic lab work costs $100, but individual labs vary
Cystinuria via Penngen -- not required for my breed, you'll have to check on the cost
and the MCA also recommends the DNA test for PRA -- not required for my breed you'll have to check on the cost

This is also the list that your pup should have done. The hip and elbow certs both require xrays, usually with sedation, and may require a visit to a specialist to have them done. The rest are bloodwork or specific exams, the bloodwork has to be sent to specific labs and the exams done by certified specialists. Ideally not only would your pup's parents have had this done, but also their parents, as some of these are NOT DNA testing and so the further back you can get clean results the better the chances of your pup passing on clean genes.

Before EVERY breeding both bitch and stud need to be tested for brucellosis. Its a STD which can not only cause sick adult dogs but also cause dead pups, AND its human transmissible (and no, you don't have to have sexual contact with your dog to catch it).

As stated above hosting the bitch even for a few days is NOT stress-less. Its not unusual for a bitch to not only refuse a stud but to do so violently. It is entirely possible for both bitch and stud to be badly injured during an attempted mating. And while she's in your care you're liable for any injury or anything that happens to her.

And every stud contract I've seen has stated that the stud owner only gets their stud fee if there's a minimum number of live pups produced, usually 2 or 3. And while these big dogs will frequently produce huge litters, a singleton is NOT unusual.

And thats not counting your costs for his living expenses, vet expenses, therapy cert, and whatever else you do with him to prove his genes worth passing on.

If you want to keep your options open and spend the extra $300 to get breeding rights thats totally up to you, but be aware that being a responsible breeder is NOT CHEAP, and your chances of actually making any profit after all is said and done is virtually non-existent.
 
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