Showing, Not as Clear Cut as they Say

[northernmastiff]

I am for showing and will be showing my dogs but I am getting so sick of hearing that a good dog is a dog that has been shown. I just found out of several breeders that are sandbagging the shows. They let each other know what dogs they are entering and if a dog needs points, they work together and bring a dog that will have a greater chance of losing against that dog. I think this practice is utterly disgusting and would not accept this type of "help" if I was offered it.

So yeah, I really think some things need to be changed in the show ring. Anyone else who have been involved in showing heard of this?

I have never heard of it when I showed Labrador Retrievers. The pool was just too big so when you went out to play, you went out to win. There was no way you could bring a subpar dog into the ring and hope for any points when there are 80 dogs entered in your class. The breed in question is a less common/rare mastiff breed, not EM's though with some of the dogs I have seen with championships, I wonder if they practice this as well, so you can stack the deck easier.

Okay, little rant but for some reason, that just ticks me off. It is how I feel with any type of competition, sandbagging is cheating in my mind.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Nothern I've never been involved in showing, but I gone to enough shows to figure out the atmosphere is too much for me. I had it figured out by the first show I went to haha!.....But I kept an opened mind thinking I just went to an "off" show. Not so much. Most ( not all) dog show people are just toxic just as much as the shows.

People in the GD community are exactly like this and it feels like a cult. The first thing that comes out above all else is whether or not the dog has been shown? This always baffles me anything else can be excused but showing cannot? I simply for the life of me cannot understand this.....guess I missed something in the memo. There is a top dane stud overseas that from what I heard was highly human and dog aggressive and has even bitten a few people/ judges. I inquired as to why this dog was breed given its uncertainty in temperament. The response, " Well he's a top show dog, you wouldn't remove him if you made money and rank from him would you?" I think I had to pick my jaw up off the floor......Yet a few years ago I wouldn't even question this.

I wish breeders were more passionate about the breed. Like my kennel blindness thread you shouldn't need a judge to evaluate the stock of your dogs. I'm constantly accessing and studying my dogs to the standard. Don't get me wrong a second opinion is always good because its easy to miss things, but showing shouldn't be the determining factor for breeding quality.

Sorry for my rant LOL

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

It happens far more than you would expect, although I haven't heard of it in the labs in our area but there are certainly more than a few that know when they have dogs that don't stack up but need the points and bring those out to get points themselves or to help out a buddy or someone with a dog of theirs.

 

[fila4me]

years ago had someone bring a bitch in heat to sit outside the ring! her Dogo had Vicks rubbed on his nose, nice! all of the males were going nuts and then trying to kill each other, but hers!!! some show people have no class!! so, nothing surprises me.

 

[LizB]

I have always thought that a dog that is shown and has success is the best way to determine a good breeder - this dog must be an excellent example of the breed, across the board.

These kind of stories are getting more and more common, and I've started to get disgusted with the whole process. I have been attending shows at our local arena on a regular basis over the years and I'm seeing judges play favorites and entrants work together in the way described above. This is ruining pure bred dogs and does not provide a level playing field.

I DO think a lot of it has to do with the number of entrants (as suggested above) and the fact that the breeds I watch tend to have very few entrants compared to some other breeds, where there are so many dogs you are forced to choose the best ones.

I hope that more people would refuse this kind of "help" to get their dog titled, but these shows are very cliquish and it is almost more about the owner/breeder than it is about the actual dog.

 

[northernmastiff]

Glad I am not the only one who has heard of this. But not really, I was kind of hoping that it was an exception, not the rule. Sad that it has come to this.

DD, I just heard of another breeder around here that is selling one of her males because he has a strong temperament. Strong as in severe people and dog aggression but from what I understand she is not selling him in a non breed contract. My thought was, if the dog has aggression like she says, people can't come within a 100 feet of him, then shouldn't she look at having him put down. It seems cruel but what type of liability is she creating selling him. If he can be rehabilitated, why is she selling him with breeding rights? There could be some personality traits passed on to the pups. Just makes me scream when I hear this crap.

 

[LizB]

I think people often write off aggression as an issue with the individual dog, rather than considering temperament as an inherited trait. Breeding for temperament ought to be as high on the list as conformation.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Its not, as far as I know, verry common in TMs, just because there's so FEW of them that in most areas of the country its just not an option.....but I was aware that it happens in general unfortunetly.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

LizB, I SO agree

Northern, I agree as well, if the dog posses a clear hazard to itself and the environment around him then the dog needs to be PTS. Money talks....unfortunately....some poor sap will buy the dog. :/

I wish showing was like the ZTP.. I'm sure some people rig it too, but at least everyone can see and judge the dog for themselves. Not just in show but also OB and character.

 

[Cody]

People have been stacking shows for ever, I know a ton of breeders who do it, including the reputable ones. I see nothing wrong with talking to other breeders to see what or how many dogs will be there and building majors. I do not agree with bringing inferior dogs to gain points, every dog put in should stand a chance IMO. Any given day any dog could win, that is the problem with showing IMO. I have seen dogs in the ring with terrible structure, move like they are lame and in pain and still win. That is my issue with showing, the judges, most are unaware of our breed and standard so just will pick the biggest or by color regardless if the dog is bowing in the front or hobbling around the ring... Don't get me wrong I do it because it is a part of the puzzle and the tool we have, but win or lose it does not affect my day to day life. Too many I find have their sense of self worth caught up in the dog at the end of the leash

 

[Cody]

I think people often write off aggression as an issue with the individual dog, rather than considering temperament as an inherited trait. Breeding for temperament ought to be as high on the list as conformation.

Cannot tell you how much I agree. I would take a stable dog any day over a GCH. The end of the day that is what it is all about.

 

[ruthcatrin]

People have been stacking shows for ever, I know a ton of breeders who do it, including the reputable ones. I see nothing wrong with talking to other breeders to see what or how many dogs will be there and building majors.

I wouldn't have a problem with that. I know Apollo's breeder has tried on a couple of occasions to find someone who's not to far from me who might be able to hit the same shows as us cause it IS so hard sometimes to get enough points with a less common breed. But thats not the same as dragging along a dog you know is likely to loose just to get the extra point.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I wouldn't have a problem with that. I know Apollo's breeder has tried on a couple of occasions to find someone who's not to far from me who might be able to hit the same shows as us cause it IS so hard sometimes to get enough points with a less common breed. But thats not the same as dragging along a dog you know is likely to loose just to get the extra point.

That exactly, show entries are going down as it is so breeders talking about entries to hopefully get majors where they are needed to complete well-deserving champions, but not okay to bring a sub-standard dog that hasn't got a hope in hell of winning to point out other dogs.

 

[cinnamon roll]

A lot of the show rings are pure politics which is extremely sad to say. Shows use to be real and the best dogs won and now they fixed. Do these people not understand what they are doing to these shows and these breeds?

Some people that don't know better think just because a dog has title that the dog is good all around. When that clearly is not the case anymore. I wonder how many people have fallen into this trap and bought subpar dogs?

 

[DDBsR4Me]

I've heard of it and find it disgusting. I haven't shown dogs since I was a kid, but I think this is a good way to further ruin breeds.

 

[DDBsR4Me]

That exactly, show entries are going down as it is so breeders talking about entries to hopefully get majors where they are needed to complete well-deserving champions, but not okay to bring a sub-standard dog that hasn't got a hope in hell of winning to point out other dogs.

I agree with this.

 

[northernmastiff]

I agree with this.

I agree with this as well. Connecting with other breeders to get more dogs out to the show is one thing. I used to go to shows where I knew other handlers or breeders when I worked with labs, it made the show more enjoyable and you got to see the dogs that were out there. But working to build up a crap dog so he can get his championship does nothing for the breed. It only hurts the breed in the long run.

 

[ruby55]

We're currently in the ring with Ruby, who only needs one major to get her championship. Personally I can't understand how she's come this far, with her straight back legs, but we went over the judges' criterion & rear legs are not to be addressed as either good or bad.
We go to shows for the company of other bm owners as much as for the title. I've never heard of our breed stacking the ring, but I get really irritated when we go through all the crap to register, travel - usually with Ally in tow, who is blind & diabetic - pay hotel/camping fees, get dressed in stupid suits, & get to the ring only to find one or two bitches have not made it. So now we're not in a major. Many owners will register their dogs in multiple shows, then go to the show where they stand the best chance of winning. And to be fair, we've had calls from friends who are trying to get a major going, asking us if we were registered for a certain show. Maybe it's because they think Ruby doesn't stand a chance...
Showing has always been political, mainly because judges are familiar with the handlers in their area. They know the handlers, and know what kind of dogs each handler has, & there's a good chance that they've socialized with the handlers on more than one occasion. As in sit at the bar & talk shop. So the little guys like us, who either can't afford a handler, or want to handle our own dogs, frequently get slighted in the ring.
As far as making money off your dog, that's a pretty tough thing to do. Only the top winners are put out there for breeding with fees, and the money spent campaigning that dog is outrageous. Look at the catalogs at the next show, you'll see what I mean.
CODY: I'm sorry to hear that you feel judges still don't know your breed. A judge is supposed to be very familiar with every breed that stands before them. Maybe it's because corsos are still fairly new to the ring. I hope it will get better, because I would hate to see this breed ruined due to ignorance.

 

[ruthcatrin]

CODY: I'm sorry to hear that you feel judges still don't know your breed. A judge is supposed to be very familiar with every breed that stands before them. Maybe it's because corsos are still fairly new to the ring. I hope it will get better, because I would hate to see this breed ruined due to ignorance.

I've seen it with the TMs :/ and I figure if I can spot it in a judge then the TM folks who're more involved are spotting it much more often, unfortunetly. It doesn't help that the ATMA's version of judge education is a joke, and the judges guide puts incorrect pictures next to the color descriptions. I even had one judge who was acting afraid of Apollo!

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I've seen it with the TMs :/ and I figure if I can spot it in a judge then the TM folks who're more involved are spotting it much more often, unfortunetly. It doesn't help that the ATMA's version of judge education is a joke, and the judges guide puts incorrect pictures next to the color descriptions. I even had one judge who was acting afraid of Apollo!

:lol: Well to be fair he and his brother they do look like miniature lions. Hahaha!