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Why you need to find a good breeder

eblans

Active Member
Sarge 3 ls.jpg

Unfortunately, I found this site after I made a deposit on my EM. I didn't do the research I should have to find a reputable breeder. I chose a local breeder who is a backyard breeder. But I wanted to share my experience so other can learn from my mistake.

We saw and add for EM pups, visited the breeder, met the pup’s mother and father. We took a couple days to think about it and made the decision to purchase a puppy. We made a deposit so ensure we got the only fawn she had available. We were told we could pick the puppy up after 8 weeks old which is expected. We visited him each week so he could get used to us, but we kind of felt we be being a bother to the breeder. We discovered things that we should have inquired about before we made a deposit. Like; she had bred this female 4 times in 30 months; she preferred her dogs to be nervous around strangers; and we found out that there were 12 pups in the litter but two died at birth and the mother laid on 4 of them; so only 6 survived. She took the puppies off of their mother at 4.5 weeks, and she only put the mother in with the puppies at night so no one would steal them. We asked her to start Sarge on the food that we wanted him to be on and she said it would be too much of a hassle and started him on Purina Large Breed Puppy chow with the other pups. Then I received a call from the breeder at 6 weeks telling me I could pick the puppy up. I told her I wanted her to keep him with the litter until 8 weeks. She said she could no longer take care of him due to personal reasons. So I went and got him at 6 weeks and 3 days. She still has 3 pups she hasn’t sold, so she has to take care of them anyway. But, we picked him up and started to slowly introduce his new food into the Purina. But, noticed within the first 12 hours that he had runny stools. He seemed to be under the weather a bit. He whined and was very restless as if he was in pain. I thought it was probably anxiety from being away from his litter mates. But to be sure, I got the first vet I appt I could and took him in (since my original 8 week appt was till two weeks away). He lost about a pound in 2 days and it turned out that he has hook worms. The breeder said she wormed them at 2 and 4 weeks. So who kows. He is on meds now and a bland diet. He still has runny stools but is happy, playful, and acting like a puppy.

Although I was not happy about picking him up at 6 weeks, I am glad we got him out of there. I would bet the 3 remaining pups have hook worms. I let the breeder know and she said the remaining pup's stools are fine.

So, I have learned a lesson. I should have done more research and I would have found this site which has provided tons of good information from current owners. I bought from the first breeder I came across and made my decision too quick. As many of you have said on this forum, dig deep to verify you are buying from a good breeder who has the breeds best interest at heart. Not just the all mighty dollar.

All of my previous dogs have been rescues. I just picked him/her out and took them home and out of a bad situation. This is the first time I spent a lot of money on a dog. Ironically, I feel like I just bought and expensive rescue which, in the end, I am glad I did. :eek:
 

dpenning

Well-Known Member
I'm glad the pup is doing better and that you got him out of there.

You obviously felt good about the breeder initially, what could you have done or asked differently that might have given you a better insight?

Thanks for sharing your story. We need baby pics! :)
 

eblans

Active Member
When we the breeder, she was very nice. She showed us her four adult EMs. The father of the Sarge didn't like men and she said he would bite. Not sure about the other two males in the yard. She told us this would be this female's 4th and last litter. He told us about when she would worm them and give them their first shots. She said they would be available after 8 weeks. She said she socializes them using her children and grandchildren. She said that a number of her neighbors own puppies from her previous litters and at least one purchased another puppy from this litter (which I thought was a positive thing). So there were a number of things that made us feel comfortable with her at first, especially since we didn't give as much thought as we should have about things we should ask.

We should have asked what type of food her dogs eat and what she planned on feeding the puppies when weened. We should have asked some hypothetical questions that would have given us an idea about the things she would be willing to do to make sure the pups got their best start in life. I wish we would have asked more about her philosophies on raising this breed or puppies in general. I would have found out that she was not interested in breeding them to improve the breed or to produce a dog with a good temperment. I should have asked how often she bred her female. When I received Sarge's AKC paperwork, I saw the mother's first litter was May 2009 and her 4th was in June 2011. I have never bred dogs and maybe I am wrong, but seems like 4 litters in two years is a bit too much for one female. She is not even four years old. She actually stated she prefers them to be nervous around strangers. I found out later that at least two of her dogs from previous litters are agressive dogs. There was no screening on her part to verify the types of homes her pups were going to. So that also leads me to think she is just after the money. I asked after I made the deposit about a health guarantee. Of course, she said there was none. She said she was a small breeder and couldn't affor it. Again, I am probably wrong, but I almost get the feeling that she knew he was sick and wanted me to get him so she wouldn't have to deal with it.

Anyway, lesson learned.
 

BlackShadowCaneCorso

Super Moderator
Staff member
Most breeders don't breed a female more than once a year and generally put a heat cycle between breedings to give the female's body a break. Whelping is hard on a female. I am sorry for your experience but he has a great home now and will be looked after and lesson learned for next time :) I am sure there are more stories out there just like yours but by you sharing yours you are helping others learn and that is the best thing you can do.
 

dpenning

Well-Known Member
Eblans, thank you so much for the info. I am just starting my search so you have helped me tremendously. Mary, thanks to you as well for the info ongood breeding practices. It all helps!
 

BlackShadowCaneCorso

Super Moderator
Staff member
Eblans, thank you so much for the info. I am just starting my search so you have helped me tremendously. Mary, thanks to you as well for the info ongood breeding practices. It all helps!

Never hesitate to ask questions on here. There are lots on here that have had a variety of experiences from great to some of the worst. We are all here to learn and help others to not make the same mistakes. Good luck with your search :)
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
Actually speaking with working breeders of different breeds, many reputable breeders will do a back to back breeding then stop. It is easier on the female to do it that way and then get them back in shape for working rather then 1 litter and when they are back in shape to breed them again. Thus putting even more strain on the body. However, 2 litters would be the maximum.
Then when they recoup and are back to prime it is not only to get pregnant again, but are back to work. Also that way they are not "wasting" a bitches working prime with pregnancies, whelping and reconditioning.
I have recently had a few discussions about this, and find it quite interesting.
Any opinions?
 

PuppyPaws

Well-Known Member
Eblans,
Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story to educate others. Some lessons are learned the hard way, but thank you for being willing to share that so that maybe others can avoid it. I think that is wonderful and really part of the whole purpose of forums like this. I think you have "rescued" him. I also think that your analysis of the situation in retrospect is probably pretty accurate.

Enjoy your new puppy and please, please post some pics :)
 

Kandie

Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing your story. Glad you were able to learn from it though even though its sucky. Your pup is absolutely adorable and I wish you both the best :)
 

eblans

Active Member
Update on Sarge. When I initially took him into the vet on Aug 2 for loose stools, he was put on EN bland canned dog food and meds. But, he wouldn't eat the food. So I called the vet back the next day. I was told to put him back on chicken and rice, which concerned me a bit since he had already been on it for few days and the stools weren't getting any better and in fact, had fully diarrhea at times. But I put him back on the chicken and rice and waited another 2 days with no progress. I called the vet again on Thurs, Aug 5. I was told to continue the chicken and rice and if not better on Monday to call back. Of course he was no better on Monday, and was looking a bit malnourished. So I called the vet back and was told to bring him in again. I had to work so my son took him in. They did a number of tests one of which I am still waiting on the results. His white blood cell count was high and a few of his other lab results were out of whack. His potassium was off and the vet said if it didn't go back to normal levels after he get over all this, it could mean there is a serious problem. She didn't tell my son what that was, but I think it would be a kidney issue. They gave him some fluids for dehydration and put him on an antibiotic along with the meds he was already on. I was a little upset because my son told me the vet had no idea he was still on chicken and rice and not eating the EN dog food she put him on. Apparently, whoever I talked to on the phone never actually consulted with the vet and I think the vet assumed we chose to put him back on the chicken and rice. I will have to go straighten that out today. Anyway, he was put on EN dry dog food yesterday and his last two stools were almost normal. So things are looking better at this point.

My point to this update is to illustrate my mistake of trying to save five hundred dollars by buying from a local backyard breeder. I can tell you that I have already spent that in vet bills. So by not buying from a good breeder, you are rolling the dice with your money and puppies health.

I feel bad for the 3 other pups that she has not sold. If I had unlimited funds, I would go take them off her hands as well.
 

Arkitek

Well-Known Member
Sorry about all your troubles! hope your EM pup gets better soon, i hate hearing these types of stories
 

HPezzullo

Active Member
Seriously... thank you for sharing the story...

I had a similar situation... the first time i baught a presa i had to go three states away and had to rely on email and telephone... finding a good breeder is hard especially when your like me and there isnt much local for mastiff breeds... its hard truely knowing the "truth" when you relying mostly on telephone and email... even driving to see the dogs and meet the breeder is no guarantee... especially when they all require deposits.. and as we all know... they do not come cheap... After i baught my male... about three months later the breeder was shut down for using false pics and lying about blood lines... but it was all worth it... i love him to death and he may not be the "standard perfect" presa but he is the love of my life lol

You just never know... that what is sad..

I think its so great that you got him out of that and now he will have a better life with a loving family...

to all: Any suggestions on what to look for and signs of a reputable breeder?
 

moose

Well-Known Member
thanks for sharing, it just shows how important it is to find a good breeder. Some of us have to learn the hard way, I know I had to as well.

---------- Post added at 08:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 AM ----------

sarge is such a cutie!
 

eblans

Active Member
Thanks all . HPessullo, I am not sure what to looks for in a reputable breeder. I would think they could provide references from other people who have purchased dogs from them before. It looks like many top breeders have their own web site. That in itself doesn't prove anything but you can usually find posts on the internet (good or bad) pertaining those breeders. One may be able to research some show winners to find quality breeders. Just some ideas but I will definately do my homework in the future.
 

Tailcreek

Well-Known Member
A few things to look for:
Do they belong to a mastiff breed club?
Do they do anything with their dogs ie conformation showing, rally/obedience, therapy visits, CGN/CGC
How often do they breed their girls? (every heat, once per year?) how many litters total will a girl have in her lifetime?
Do they perform genetic screening/health testing on dogs before they breed them?

Good questions to ask:
Do they offer a health guarantee?
Do they have a written purchase contract?
How do they care for the litter (where are they kept? what age are they weaned? what are they fed? how are they socialized for their first weeks of life?)
Will they take back pups if the owners can no longer care for them?
How old are their dogs when they are bred the first time?

Things to check:
Clean and appropriate living conditions for the dogs
Verify health testing with online registries
Verify their dogs are registered with the AKC/CKC
Temperaments of parents - this is passed along to their puppies

Some red flags:
They want to meet at a public location rather than at their place of residence
They tell you their dogs have no history of hip dysplasia or other problems so they don't test them for it
Pyramid scemes...you can have this dog for free if we co-own it but you must breed her and hand over the puppies (soooo not worth it)

Feel free to ask a breeder what their philosophies on breeding and raising pups are. Those of us who have a passion for it can happily talk about this subject all day. Oh, and pretty much any breeder no matter how terrible they are can have a food good references, whether legit or a lie...

Jennifer
www.tailcreekmastiffs.com
 

eblans

Active Member
Thanks Tailcreek. Excellant recommendations and I'll know what to do next time. An update on Sarge is we found out in addition to hook worms, he has Isosporin. So now he is on a second antibiotic for that. We started his vaccinations all over again yesterday with the vet. After all this, I don't trust that the breeder actually gave him his first shots. But his stools have been firm for 4 days and he his energy is off the charts:eek: So he is doing well.
 

rebeccagrooms

New Member
Thx for the advice!! My husband and I bought our first Mastiff over a year ago and have fallen completely in love with the breed. We want to breed her but are still debating. Lucy is 18 months right now and is currently in her first heat cycle.

Can you recommend any books that would be helpfful to us? We've had a very difficult time finding books about English Mastiffs.