American Mastiff Breeder..

[Gemsmom]

Okay, perhaps this is a stupid question, but I am curious... There is now a breeder around the corner from our home with a sign in the front that reads "Home of the Pure-bred American Mastiff" underneath this reads "CKC Registered breeder & proud member of the American Mastiff Breeders Council". Now correct me if I'm wrong, but these are NOT a purebred dog right? They are a cross of mastiff breeds aren't they? Maybe I am not thinking correctly, but it seems like it wasn't all that long ago I read a horror story about a family who had purchased an American Mastiff that grew to be so aggressive it became very dangerous to all around it. The breeder refused to take it as it was fine when it left them, but offered instead the use of their trainer who was convinced he could "knock" it out of him. I think the story pertained to a dog bought from Flying W Farms or some such place. We live on a lake in a rural area where there are no city regulations on what kind or how many pets you can have. There are lots of dogs that are on underground fencing. I have two neighbors who have been to see said breeder and are convinced they want to purchase puppies. One said he gets $1950 for the "average puppy" and $2650 for pick of the litter. If I am accurate and they are mixed and have a tendency to be unreliable b/c of breeding, I would like to let these neighbors know to prevent issues with humans and other dogs here.

 

[Ripsmom]

from what I've read it's an english mastiff mixed w/ anatolian...which I would consider to be a mixed breed and apparently recognized by the continental kennel club... I am not familiar with the CKC...another "designer" dog if you ask me

 

[Gemsmom]

What a confusing breed to research. They are not acknowledged by the AKC, UKC, or CKC (Canadian Kennel Club). The only acknowledgement they get for being purebred is from the CKC - Continental Kennel Club. This is the first time I have ever heard of them.. Some websites say that they are a cross using the old English mastiff and the anatolian mastiff.. I have no idea what the hell an anatolian mastiff is ** wiki lists it as an ancient mastiff breed known for its intelligence and lengthy life span, when you google it you get american mastiff info. Other websites say they are a cross using an anatolian shepherd and an old English mastiff. Apparently a lady (Fredricka Wagner) in Ohio bred two different breed dogs to get a "better" mastiff that drools less, has less health problems, and lives significantly longer. There are many lawsuits associated with various breeders of american mastiffs pertaining to dog aggression and price fixing (yeah, the council (who is led by the breeds creator) tried to price fix and boycotted new breeders who objected..) Regardless, it's a mix and an unreliable one at that when you start hitting other forums following web links. It's a bit irritating as the breeder apparently saw Gemma and I on our daily walk and told one of my neighbors that they should talk to me as I "own an American Mastiff and could them an idea of what the breed is like". I officially take offense after looking into this. When my neighbor told me about the breeder, what he had said, she asked what I thought of the breed. I told her I had no idea what an American mastiff was, I own a bullmastiff. She asked me if I was sure b/c the breeder said I did so I must (!?!?)!! I assured her I was, I bought her from a bullmastiff breeder and she is AKC registered as a bullmastiff. I thought I was going to have to get out her papers. Makes me not happy..

---------- Post added at 06:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 PM ----------

And Ripsmom, you are right.. they are listed as a designer dog. Apparently they are quite popular with the unquestioning individual. IMO, there should be a disclaimer somewhere stating that are not purebred and should not be confused with the a true mastiff.

 

[Gemsmom]

And Ripsmom, you are right.. they are listed as a designer dog. Apparently they are quite popular with the unquestioning individual. IMO, there should be a disclaimer somewhere stating that are not purebred and should not be confused with the a true mastiff.

 

[jf85gt]

i think an anatolian shepherd is a turkish dog like a Kengal...but yeah American Mastiff is a designer dog i think there are a few other designer mastiffs that are supposed to be the "Cure" for your common Mastiff health problems. I also have heard of these American Mastiffs having temperment problems. Tell your neighbors to do some research before buying one of these dogs.

 

[Cody]

All breeds are a mix until recognized . The Bull Mastiff was created by crossing the Mastiff with the old English Bulldog. Every breed originates somewhere. I am cool with breeders who know what they are doing and are responsible about it. If they can answer questions as to why they are breeding, what they are looking for and what they hope to accomplish with the breeding as well as health testing and being responsible for the puppies they produce, I do not see the problem.
I believe that there are "established" breeders of the American Mastiff, such as there are established lines of the Bandogge. I know people who have Am Mastiffs who are fantastic dogs, great temperaments. Please don't pass a judgment on the temperament of a breed based on a story about a dog. That is how breed specific legislation comes about It is never the breed but the deed.

As far as I know there are breeders striving towards having the Am Mastiff recognized. Hell up until July 1st the Corso wasn't a recognized breed in the USA and was registered through the ICCF (International Cane Corso Federation) or the FCPR .

 

[Gemsmom]

I know, I know.. I guess technically they are all mixes at some point in their history, but it just doesn't seem right to call it a mastiff. I mean think about it, if I was to take my Chevy SUV and put a Ford drive train (motor & transmission) in it, is it still a Chevy? In looks alone it's a Chevy, but what drives it is Ford. Stupid analogy I know.. but it expresses my point. It may look like a mastiff, but will it act like a mastiff.. I also get what my neighbor says to an extent when she asked aren't all mastiff's bred in the U.S. American mastiffs (pertaining to the confusion of the breeder telling her my dog was an AM as opposed to her being a bullmastiff.) It would be confusing, I mean hell I had no idea what an AM was and I researched different types of mastiffs pretty extensively before purchasing Gemma. Most crossbreed's have portmanteau (blended) names which are representative of both breeds involved.. goldendoodle, cockapoo, so on and so forth. And that is what it is, a crossbreed. It's deceptive to an extent to call it an American mastiff. For a breeder to say to a potential client or advertise that an AM is a anatolian mastiff/EM cross is a outright lie. It is an anatolian shepherd dog bred with an english mastiff. Purebred dogs are bred selectively for years for traits that are desirable and to breed out traits that aren't. You lose the predictable temperament of the breed that took centuries of breeding to accomplish with said cross, and yet they are called mastiff's. AM's (per the MCOA) are more prone to the genetic defect's and diseases of both breeds b/c of the cross. They aren't advertised as such. They are advertised to be the perfect mastiff with less drool, healthier as "some of mastiff's known health problems have been bred out", and to live longer. It just seems wrong. There are shelters full of crossbred dogs that no one wants b/c there is no guarantee what you'll get and very few people are willing to take that chance, what makes these any different..

---------- Post added at 09:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 PM ----------

THE AMERICAN MASTIFF HISTORY OF THE BREED (The Creator of the AM's website)

The American Mastiff was developed over many years of selective breeding by Fredericka Wagner of Flying W Farms, Piketon, Ohio. The goal was to develop a dog that had the size, temperament, disposition, and the appearance of the Mastiff, but with fewer health problems, and much dryer mouth than other mastiff breeds. This was accomplished by crossing the English Mastiff with the Anatolian Mastiff during the early development of the breed.
http://www.flyingwfarms.com/amastiff/Amer_Mastiff_History_Info.html

Breed Information

The breed was developed by Fredericka Wagner of Flying W Farms in Ohio by crossing an Old English Mastiff with an Anatolian Mastiff (Kangal). With this combination, you get a dog that has fewer hip problems, lesser drooling, and a longer life expectancy.
http://www.orionmastiff.com/
(under breed history)

"Because Kangal name and breed has not been thoroughly defined and documented until recently, because of the slightly similar appearance and desire to capitalize on unique qualities of the breed, Anatolian Shepherd Dogs in general are sometimes labeled Kangals. Kangal is a distinct breed from Karabash, Akbash and the generic Anatolian Shepherd Dog."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangal_Dog#Temperament

The second kennel above breeds a line of the the first kennel's (The creator's) dogs. See the conflict of breeds and names.. how is one supposed to know what they are getting?

 

[Gemsmom]

THE AMERICAN MASTIFF HISTORY OF THE BREED (The Creator of the AM's website)

The American Mastiff was developed over many years of selective breeding by Fredericka Wagner of Flying W Farms, Piketon, Ohio. The goal was to develop a dog that had the size, temperament, disposition, and the appearance of the Mastiff, but with fewer health problems, and much dryer mouth than other mastiff breeds. This was accomplished by crossing the English Mastiff with the Anatolian Mastiff during the early development of the breed.
http://www.flyingwfarms.com/amastiff/Amer_Mastiff_History_Info.html

Breed Information

The breed was developed by Fredericka Wagner of Flying W Farms in Ohio by crossing an Old English Mastiff with an Anatolian Mastiff (Kangal). With this combination, you get a dog that has fewer hip problems, lesser drooling, and a longer life expectancy.
http://www.orionmastiff.com/
(under breed history)

"Because Kangal name and breed has not been thoroughly defined and documented until recently, because of the slightly similar appearance and desire to capitalize on unique qualities of the breed, Anatolian Shepherd Dogs in general are sometimes labeled Kangals. Kangal is a distinct breed from Karabash, Akbash and the generic Anatolian Shepherd Dog."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangal_Dog#Temperament

The second kennel above breeds a line of the the first kennel's (The creator's) dogs. See the conflict of breeds and names.. how is one supposed to know what they are getting?

---------- Post added at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 PM ----------

 

[Gemsmom]

no idea what happened..

 

[Cody]

With poor breeding practices any breed can enhance the negative traits of the breed over the positive.
Look at Line breeding, if done properly one can cement the traits that one is desiring, if done haphazardly the opposite can occur.
If the breeder is researching the lineage, health/temperament testing the animals, removing those that do not conform to what it is they are trying to achieve, then they can have a great program. To say that crossing the 2 breeds will enhance health issues, I find hard to believe, unless using stock that both come from lines with serious problems. It is common knowledge that, on average, mutts are healthier and live longer then the purebreds. I do believe that that came from the MCOA so should be taken with a grain of salt as they CANNOT support the AM breeders. What I think I am understanding is that you disagree with the term Mastiff as the ASD is not? They are both Mollosser breeds however, so have base similarities and roots. Is not like they are taking a soft mouth dog such as a poodle or retriever, they are staying within the parameters of the type I suppose. Like a Bandogge Mastiff, a neo and a Pitbull. They call them Mastiffs but in truth is half mastiff and a terrier.
From my understanding the AMBC keeps a tight watch over breeders of "approved" AM's. They are generations in now, no longer crossing the 2 breeds, but breeding select AM's to AM, it has been 20 years. In order for it to be called an AM it must be able to have it's pedigree traced back to the original dogs.
http://www.americanmastiffbreederscouncil.com/
Now, please do not assume that I am pro randomly cross breeding, I am NOT. I am for only breeding the best of the best. Dogs that have something to offer the breed. Dogs with serious faults SHOULD NOT be bred IMO. There are enough great dogs out there that will actually benefit the breed rather then add a recessive gene that will continually rear it's nasty head down the road. I am not supporting the breeding of AM's, I honestly do not know enough about the breed to do that. But as I do not know enough, I will not jump in and condemn either. The breed has been around for 20 years, has a breed club, a standard and is actually working towards becoming a legit breed. Every breed starts somewhere IMO.
What I do know is I have friends with families, kids who own these dogs and they are great additions to their families.
I also know that as soon as I hear about a breed with bad temperaments it gets my back up, it is not because of it's breed.
These are dominant breeds, the Anatolian Shepard is like the CAS and CO, not for the novice. They are not breeds that any one can handle. They require a strong owner with dominant breed knowledge. It always comes down to human error, be it bad breeding of genetically unstable dogs, or poor ownership and lack of socialization.

 

[Ripsmom]

I agree every breed starts somewhere...as long as people know what they're doing...and we know that mixed breeds can be more physically sound due to larger gene pools but I personally don't think the Anatolian is the breed to mix if you want to keep the EM temperament. Then if you get a "breeder" who really doesn't know what they're doing and sells pups to other people who don't know what they are doing on top of it...yikes

 

[Gemsmom]

I agree.. unfortunately from the stories I have read and pages I have visited, it is the new owner that gravitates towards them as they as are advertised to be a "better mastiff". I know an educated and careful breeder can breed a wonderful dog, and I know all dogs are different, just seems like a risk after reading about the anatolian. I respect Cody's opinion as well. And she is right, not only does the way they are advertised irritate me, the name really irritates me. The devious way the information is presented calling the anatolian a mastiff, saying it is a mastiff to mastiff cross which it isn't. Matter of fact, this gentleman has akbash in his line which he refers to as an anatolain/akbash mastiff.. Now there is a dog that should never be crossed, much less with an even larger breed (Akbash males about 100 lbs as adults.). They are naturally aggressive and in his line when crossed with an EM get to be between 150 and 200 lbs. Thats a lot of dog in the wrong person's hands. I know I should probably just get over this, but it just doesn't seem right.

 

[Cody]

Oh I totally agree, that cross could be a very dangerous mix in the wrong hands.
I guess my question is, is the breeder crossing the dogs himself or is he breeding proven stock accepted by the parent group, or in this case the Breeders Counsel. I do not think that at this point in the development of the AM they would need or want to add more Anatolian in the mix. Just from what they say they are striving for, I would not believe adding would benefit a program.
And I can totally see where it could get dangerous. People wanting a mastiff, "I don't like the slobber" seeing a Mastiff advertised with a dryer mouth... Why research. All Mastiff's are gentle giants As with any breed I am guessing this one will, and already does have a bad rap from BYB's. Also down the road I am sure there will be some breeders using the temperament of the Anatolian to create a more aggressive mastiff
I suppose the people I know with AM's are dominant breed people who also have CC. They have researched the breed and the breeder, have contracts, health guarantees and can trace back the lineage of their dogs. So they have raised well adjusted, well socialized animals.

 

[ElJayBee]

I have no comment on the American Mastiff thing, but I will say that CKC is a joke. It's the one of the worst registries out there. You can actually register a cat as a dog breed with the CKC. It's been done with success to prove a point before. Neither parent of a litter of puppies has to be registered to be able to register the pups CKC. All you have to have is a witness to sign saying they are the breed you say they are. CKC is useless, IMO.

 

[chris410]

What a confusing breed to research. They are not acknowledged by the AKC, UKC, or CKC (Canadian Kennel Club). The only acknowledgement they get for being purebred is from the CKC - Continental Kennel Club. This is the first time I have ever heard of them..

For what it is worth, CKC or "Continental Kennel Club" usually paper pet store dogs. When I bought my first rottweiler I bought him from a pet store and he was CKC papered, from a structure standpoint he was not "show quality" but had the best personality of any dog I have ever come across and am convinced ever will. That being said, he passed away at 2 years of age from organ failure. I spent nearly $2000 on tests trying to figure out what happened and never received a solid answer other than organ failure. That is when I began looking into breeders so, draw whatever conclusions but when I see pet stores having CKC papers I have to wonder how strict the breeding procedures/requirements are. I have walked into several pet stores in different areas and noted the CKC consistency.

 

[Cody]

Just to clarify there are 2 CKC registries
1- The Canadian Kennel Club, sister club to the the AKC and the most recognized registry in Canada. Very Legit. Dogs sold in pet stores will not have these papers.

2- The Continental Kennel Club is yes, a joke registry, that will paper anything.

 

[Enzos Dad]

We know someone who has a American Mastiff i dont think they have had any problems with it so far but who knows. My breeder knows of Flying W farms since she is located close to them in ohio. From what i read there are only 12 licensed breeders in the country but i wouldnt trust a dog mixed with an Anatolian sheppard if they are anything like the kangel

 

[evren81]

A Perfect Dog look a Anatolian Aksaray Malaklı AKsaray MALAKLI nın HASI BETOO - YouTube
not a salon dog e real power Dog.

 

[evren81]

İ think when they American breeders take good Turkısh Dogs they can give that new Mastiff they agility bak this agility in they History of en englısh mastiff .

 

[alwcm4]

They were originally bred to be the 'drool free mastiff'. Ha, even a lab drools LOL. The problem with the American Mastiff is that the puppy buying publis assume they are getting a dog with the EM temperament (that's why they wanted a Mastiff) and alot of these mixed breeds, designer dogs, Am. Mastiffs, whatever you call them end up with the Anatolian Shepard temperament and end up in shelters or put down because of aggression, bit records etc.

It really would be no different than someone who doesn't know the difference in an EM and a CC or Presa getting one of those stronger willed more dominant breeds. Not going to end well for the family or dog in most cases. Puppy buyers need to be a bit more responsible too.