Boerboel with major issues.......need help, at our witts end !!!

[kmay]

Everything I have says 10 to 14 day incubation period.

[ Remember this virus is literally everywhere: every carpet, floor, yard and park. And, it only takes a tiny portion of infected stool, which doesn't even have to be fresh, but can be months old, to infect a non-immune dog. The puppy can ingest the virus by sniffing or eating infected stool, or by cleaning himself, or by eating food off the ground or floor. It only takes a microscopic amount of stool to infect a puppy.
Parvo can be brought home to your dog on shoes, hands and even car tires. So, your puppy can contract Parvo even if he never leaves your yard. It is speculated that even a bird invading your dog's food dish can deposit the Parvovirus there. Insects and rodents may also spread the disease. Parvo is also airborne. ]

Yes, they can shed some parvo in their stool after 3 days after exposure, I know that, but she only was at our house for 4 days before she showed signs. And i have no infected parvo dogs in my yard, but yes, parvo is also airborne. Ok, so lets say for arguments sake, she got it at my house and we didn't know that someone brought home Parvo on their shoes while walking one of our dogs. Ok, so....that solved, i won't blame the breeder.

But i aksed for help, suggestions here, not to be treated like i am being treated by some people. Cesar Milan is not the "God" of dog trainers, i actually e-mailed him and got an automated response back saying he was to busy with his t.v. show and was not taking new clients. I waited a few months and e-mailed again, got the response of "you need to video tape the dog attacking and send it in to us, if we 'have the time' and not busy with t.v. shows, we may see if we can help you" what the heck kind of answer was that. A neighbor sent him a message asking for help on her dog that kills cats when they go thru the yard, his answer was "video tape the dog killing the cat, blah blah blah" like she's going to sit there and video tape the dog in the act of murder, not gonna happen.

As for reading body language, i just said i can see when she is going to do it, you can see it in her face and her body movements. We correct it before it happens and then she will sneak around behind you really fast and do it anyway.

As for mentioning also her fear and her anxiety, people are asking which is my real problem, which one am i coming here for help on, both or i wouldn't mention her fear and anxiety.

And no, I am not 100% qualified to handle this situation, that is why i am seeking help. We are trying to do what we can with this dog to help her and not have to get rid of her, without having to pay a fortune. I realize dogs cost money, i have had them all my life, my kids were raised with them, and i take care of my animals very well. And it is not a sob story to pay for a dog with cancer, you try it, it's not cheap.

We enrolled her in training with a trainer when she first started having this aggression issue, it was a Shutzund trainer who boards and trains police dogs. So she has had some help, it didn't work. Even after us doing what they say to do at home it didn't work.

We did nothing wrong with the way we raised this pup, she has been a problem for a long time that most people would have just gotten rid of her. I feel we took on the dog as a pup, she's part of the family, and once in my household, she is my responsibility and i will not get rid of her because she has issues. That would be like putting your special needs child in a home because you just don't want to "deal with it".

Why is it so hard for some of you to understand that this dog may actually have some mental issues. Bad breeding, short circuit somewhere or something. You are all so quick to judge that it was US that did this to the dog. As mentioned before, i have had large breed dogs all my life and this is the first issue i've ever had, so it is not me.

We are not poor people, we are not rich people. I have bills to pay like anyone else. I just lost my mother, my father has moved in with us, i have vet bills to pay for other dogs (no a sob story, truth) children to fee, and I will not pay $250 an hour for a traiiner. I think it's an unreasonable amount of money and that is my personal opinion.

I want to thank you for your help which was nothing. Thank you for berating and putting me down and being so insulting. Hopefully when your children come home from school asking for help on something they have a problem with, whether it be personal or school, you don't just shove it down their throats and tell them they made the problem, they can fix it.

I am over 50 yrs old and you have treated and talked down to me like I am a child. You were all so helpful. Not !!!

 

[Mongo]

But i aksed for help, suggestions here, not to be treated like i am being treated by some people. Cesar Milan is not the "God" of dog trainers, i actually e-mailed him and got an automated response back saying he was to busy with his t.v. show and was not taking new clients. I waited a few months and e-mailed again

That is unrealistic. I understand wanting the 'Best' but waiting months is too long...

As for reading body language, i just said i can see when she is going to do it, you can see it in her face and her body movements. We correct it before it happens and then she will sneak around behind you really fast and do it anyway.

Why is it so hard for some of you to understand that this dog may actually have some mental issues.

Then correct it when she sneaks up again...maybe your not being assertive enough. Not everyone has what it takes to train dogs.

I also dont believe a dog can develope a mental illness. If that was the case, then this would have been an issue from day 1... there for Im sure this dog IN THE RIGHT HANDS can be fixed

I want to thank you for your help which was nothing. You were all so helpful. Not !!!

Your welcome!

 

[Mongo]

Double post

 

[Mongo]

I am sure that I may not be as qualified as those who have already posted, but.. I think to own a large breed dog, any dog for that matter, a responsible owner needs to know the signals that precede a fight or attack whether it be on another dog or a human. This is my first mastiff and she is only 7 months old, so I am no expert.. But you can bet I did my research prior to purchase. I made sure I was ready, that I could handle her, and that I was purchasing from a very reputable breeder. I met her parents, watched them interact, made sure (via their vet) that their temperament was tested and good. As a bully breed owner (I also have an american pitbull terrier) it's crucial. The situation you have is not fair or fit for any of your dogs. By segregating her, you are compiling stress and anxiety. Having her there with your other dogs, when you cannot contain her as you mentioned above, you are putting them, as well as your neighborhood, in danger. To be a responsible owner you have a choice to make. 1. Invest in your dogs health and quality of life by bringing in a trainer to educate you and help your dog. or 2. Surrender her to an individual qualified and in a position financially to meet her needs and get her the help that will improve her quality of life. What is written in the other posts isn't an attack on you, it's confusion and disbelief regarding your situation. Dog aggression is serious and needs to be dealt with as soon as it happens. You cannot wait, like you have, to obtain help. I mean think about the dogs quality of life over the past couple of years.. How would you rate it? A dog is supposed to be part of your family, living day to day with your companionship. Your dog depends on you for everything she needs, she trusts you to take care of her. She lived with you and your other dogs for quite a while from the sounds of it without issues of DA. An incident occurs, and obviously wasn't dealt with as it should have been, and she finds herself alone, segregated, and as you say screaming. What will you do when she decides she is done with segregation and no longer trusts you? These are powerful breeds, far to powerful to not be trained appropriately or corrected when necessary. You are at a point that without the help of a professional you really only have one responsible option. I sincerely hope you make a responsible decision and that your situation improves.

This is a GREAT post! Thank you!

 

[Ryan Davis]

http://vetmedicine.about.com/cs/dognz/a/parvodog.htm Just one article I found stating as little as 3 days. As far as Cesar Millian I didnt nor did anyone else I see refer to him as God or even suggest contacting him, however I did reference him on red zone cases. Correct me if Im wrong guys but the last thing I think I would do is enroll and aggressive dog in schutzhund. I know several schutzhund trainers who wouldnt even consider taking on an aggressive dog because they have to be of sound tempermant.

So if its bad breeding, short circut etc etc she can't be fixed its in her dna to attack. I personally think thats b.s. but ok lets say thats the problem. You have two choices lock her up by any mean neccessary to prevent futures attacks on animals or people, or have her put down.

Comparing your dog to a special needs child is extreme children aren't likely to attack and cause injury to someone else and if they do they have places for those type jail or the mental ward. Hence if your dog was actually people it would have been in jail along time ago.

 

[kmay]

Our vet did blood work to see if there was any other issues going on that may cause these problems. She said the dog was potentially dangerous but at the same time would not euthenize her because she said blood work showed she was healthy, and she will not put down a healthy dog.

As for shutzund training, quite the contrary, i talked to several people there who had there dogs enrolled in the private shutzund training and they say that an aggressive dog does very well as it gives them an outlet for their aggression 3 or 4 times a week at the class. As for training her that way, we didn't enroll her in shutzund training, that is where we took her for some help with her not wanting to learn or listen to us for obedience, we never went as far to even start her in any other training.

now, i am asking the person who runs this list to please delete every single one of my posts, i am tired of this and will seek help elsewhere.
thank you.

 

[Cody]

kmay
I want to say sorry for the treatment that you have received on this forum. Personally I am disgusted and ashamed at how you have been talked to and treated. There are always internet warriors who are experts and holier then thou because they saw a show on TV.
Good luck with you dog, and I hope you figure out a solution.

 

[kmay]

Thank you.
For now she will be in her 24 X 22 foot pen (which is not solitary confinement as she can see everything in the yard and has rabbits in the pen with her and it is no different than some people who kennel a dog and it's a good size kennel) but she will be in that pen while we are at work, and we will continue to switch them around so she will be out in the big yard when we are home and the other dogs will be in the smaller yard in the back. This way she DOES get human and other animal interaction.
When she's out of her pen, she is with us when we are out there, gets walked and sits and waits by the front door for us to come back out, and she plays with the donkey and the cats out front. She is only not allowed near the other dogs.
She also sleeps in our room with us at night, so she doesn't jump the fence during the night if she hears a noise that scares her.

 

[Ripsmom]

It does sound like this dog has some genetic issues, environment is only part of the equation with dog personality with genetics playing a large role. I sure hope the breeder doesn't decide to breed the parents again ever.

 

[Sabrina]

Our vet did blood work to see if there was any other issues going on that may cause these problems. She said the dog was potentially dangerous but at the same time would not euthenize her because she said blood work showed she was healthy, and she will not put down a healthy dog.

As for shutzund training, quite the contrary, i talked to several people there who had there dogs enrolled in the private shutzund training and they say that an aggressive dog does very well as it gives them an outlet for their aggression 3 or 4 times a week at the class. As for training her that way, we didn't enroll her in shutzund training, that is where we took her for some help with her not wanting to learn or listen to us for obedience, we never went as far to even start her in any other training.

now, i am asking the person who runs this list to please delete every single one of my posts, i am tired of this and will seek help elsewhere.
thank you.

I dont like how you were talked to either...please dont leave!

 

[ElJayBee]

I am not a fan of some of the responses given either. I was one of the first to offer help without judging and provided my advice according to the information that was given. I also asked many questions to try and assess the situation better to be able to offer support where I could. I was never rude or uncaring. I don't understand why some people feel the need to berate someone because they are having issues with their dog and are so quick to jump someone's case. I agree that $250 an hour is a good amount of money, I'm not sure that if the situation were my own that I would be willing to pay that, especially knowing that I had upcoming medical expenses for my other dogs that are more important. But whether or not a trainer is hired, this person came here asking for help.

Now that I know more information about the situation, I think you (the OP) have done just about anything I know to do outside of hiring a professional. I'm sorry if you felt that my previous advice was unwarranted or uncaring or "ceasar milan-ish", cuz that's certainly not how i meant it. And I certainly don't feel like I was ever rude. I was only offering what I could for you in my limited experience and knowledge with the information i was given by you at the time. That's why I asked so many questions to try and understand your situation better. Sorry if you were offended in anyway. Seems like you may have been since you never mentioned that I tried to help in a nice way, unlike some others on the board. Anyway, it sounds to me like she is just a very mentally unstable boerboel and I'm not sure what training you could try that would help. I have an APBT who at one time was extremely fearful of everything. He wouldn't even come in the house when I first got him and spent most of his time hiding. He was about 7 months old at the time. After 8 weeks of group obedience to expose him to new people, animals, sounds, and environments while having to focus on training, he got much better. After that I took him to as many different places as possible and exposed him to many different sights and sounds all the while ignoring his unstable fearfulness and praising him when he was acting normally. Over time this has helped tremendously. He's gone from hiding, bolting, soiling himself, shaking, and excessive drooling to being mostly calm and well-mannered in most any situation. He still has some vices that he hasn't been able to overcome, such as really crowded areas, baby stollers and similarly-wheeled objects, and certain people. But all-in-all it's now at a tolerable level and he seems much happier for it.

I don't know if these kind of things would have any positive impact on your girl at all. But it's worth a shot to try any of these things that you haven't already done. And maybe even worth a shot to try some that you have done again. All I know is that I wish you the best of luck with her, and I hope that maybe she can overcome at least some things with time.

Please don't leave the forum! It is a good place for info, and I of course, am always happy to have another boerboel owner around...

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 PM ----------

Also, I don't understand why people think it's such a horrible thing to keep certain pack members separated from each other. There's nothing wrong with this as long as the owner is ok with it. As an owner of APBTs, I understand all too well the IMPORTANCE of keeping some dogs separated from each other. Some dogs just simply CANNOT be together and there's nothing wrong with that. I know many other fellow APBT owners who have to "crate and rotate" several of the dogs in their home and everyone is happy and fulfilled. Dogs don't have to live together with other dogs to be happy. As long as this boerboel is getting plenty of attention from her owners, as seems to be the case, there should be no concern about her being segregated from the other dogs if the owners are ok with it. It seems to me that she could probably still co-exist fine with the lab if so desired. But if that's not a risk they're willing to take, then fine, so be it. No problem.

 

[ElJayBee]

Also, I don't understand why people think it's such a horrible thing to keep certain pack members separated from each other. There's nothing wrong with this as long as the owner is ok with it. As an owner of APBTs, I understand all too well the IMPORTANCE of keeping some dogs separated from each other. Some dogs just simply CANNOT be together and there's nothing wrong with that. I know many other fellow APBT owners who have to "crate and rotate" several of the dogs in their home and everyone is happy and fulfilled. Dogs don't have to live together with other dogs to be happy. As long as this boerboel is getting plenty of attention from her owners, as seems to be the case, there should be no concern about her being segregated from the other dogs if the owners are ok with it. It seems to me that she could probably still co-exist fine with the lab if so desired. But if that's not a risk they're willing to take, then fine, so be it. No problem.

 

[Cody]

I know you weren't talking to me ElJayBee, but I thought your advise was great and was NOT in any way referring to you as rude or Milanesk (I made the Cesar reference)
Again I know you were talking to Kmay but I thought I would add my 2 cents. Was the best advice given on this thread.
And I agree, I hope you don't leave kmay.

 

[ElJayBee]

I know you weren't talking to me ElJayBee, but I thought your advise was great and was NOT in any way referring to you as rude or Milanesk (I made the Cesar reference)
Again I know you were talking to Kmay but I thought I would add my 2 cents. Was the best advice given on this thread.
And I agree, I hope you don't leave kmay.

thanks so much cody. when i looked at this thread again today (i haven't revisited it for some time) i was just appalled at what some people had responded with. this person is going thru a hard time not only with their boerboel, but looking at losing one dog and possibly another in the near future. it's just sad to me that people can't bite their tongues and try to offer suggestions without being rude. we don't all have to agree on everything in order to give advice.

as far as the CM reference, i couldn't tell if it was directed at me or not, lol. and i didn't remember who had said exactly what when i made my last post, so no worries.

 

[Mongo]

Thank you.
For now she will be in her 24 X 22 foot pen (which is not solitary confinement as she can see everything in the yard and has rabbits in the pen with her and it is no different than some people who kennel a dog and it's a good size kennel) but she will be in that pen while we are at work, and we will continue to switch them around so she will be out in the big yard when we are home and the other dogs will be in the smaller yard in the back. This way she DOES get human and other animal interaction.
When she's out of her pen, she is with us when we are out there, gets walked and sits and waits by the front door for us to come back out, and she plays with the donkey and the cats out front. She is only not allowed near the other dogs.
She also sleeps in our room with us at night, so she doesn't jump the fence during the night if she hears a noise that scares her.

First Id like to say that I think you should stay. When you are on a forum you cant read peoples tone. Its very easy to take something the wrong way. Yes I do believe this should have been fixed a long time ago and sorry I just dont believe youve tried your hardest. Im sure a behaviorist would mke a payment plan with you. Have you asked? Did you ever call around to find a different trainer? I dont see how you can have an aggressive dog in your house and a rescue still let you foster? I just see too many holes here.

Anyways. Like Ive said in another post I think she should be getting more exercise. Something to REALLY drain her energy. Going for a run, swimming, herding sheep. Give her a job. Walking is not fullfilling to a dog. When you see a stray dog on the streets are they walking? No they are trotting(dont know the exact word you would use)

I certainly dont think Im holier than thou

 

[Gemsmom]

I apologize if you found me to be rude. That was not my intent. I did a little research and found a link you might be interested in. This link is to the American College of Veterinary behaviorists. You can search for a behaviorist in California (There are four) and their prices look to start at $135.00.. still a lot, but better than $250.00 an hour. They can/would evaluate your dog and her aggressive behaviors, seeking a cause and a solution. Way more in depth than a standard vet. In addition, The Humane Society of the United States offers state by state assistance (financially) for the training, care, and medical treatment (including cancer treatments) of animals. I don't know your financial situation, but based on the fact you do/have done rescue and you care for many animals maybe there is some help they could give you. Or maybe a referral for more cost effective training. Hope this helps.

Behaviorists: http://dacvb.org/

Humane Society of the United States: http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/resources/tips/trouble_affording_pet.html

 

[kmay]

Well, I said we fostered in the past, i didn't say we fostered with her. We haven't fostered since the Boerboel came down with Parvo. I can't foster puppies after having Parvo in my yard for at least 1 full year. By then she was having these other issues, and we decided not to foster. My decision, not the shelter. They called for me to foster and I told them no, i have my hands full. I have not fostered in 3 yrs but i fostered for over 10 straight yrs before that. That is where 2 of my other dogs came from.

I think she gets plenty of exerscise. She is out every single day with us when we get home from work. She goes for walks at least 4 days a week, sometimes more. When my son walks her, he will be gone for quite some time. He will walk her, then jog, then walk again and he will do this for usually about 2 miles or more. He's measured it with a pedometer and driven it in the car to see how far he's walked.

If some of the people had waited for me to post more, or asked more questions, they may have understood how much we have already tried with this dog. We did not do Shutzund training with her, we took her there because they also had basic obedience training in groups and we felt she would be better in a group to get her over some of her problems. When she failed that class (she just couldn't pay attention to anything with all the other dogs around and was very difficult and we tried for over a month) we decided to do the obedience at home, one on one and it worked perfect.

After she started attacking the Dane, we called 9 (YES really believe it or not 9 and I kept track of who I called) different places to see about placing her. We called dog rescues, no kill shelters, and even a Boerboel breeder/trainer. They all said NO, they will not take dogs with dog aggression issues. So we took her to a private trainer for a consultation. The man had us bring the Dane with us so he could see her interaction with her.

He told us he was going to tie her to a pole and we were to walk the Dane past so he could see what she does. We weren't quite sure what he was going to do, but we let him tie her up since he was the "trainer/behavioralist". So he tied the Boerboel to a pole with a pinch collar on (I felt that was odd) then held onto a leash attached to yet another pinch collar and told us to walk the Dane where she could see her.
As soon as I said, "there, there's the look she gives her before she attacks" and he saw the look she gave the Dane, he yanked on both pinch collars and started beating her face with the end of the leash. He pulled so hard that her front feet were off the ground and the dog was screaming !!!!!

Let me tell you how fast my husband yanked that leash out of that guys hands and unhooked his dog. He threw her in the back of the car and put the dane in the very back (said a few words to the guy that I won't put in letter) and we went home. The whole time the guy is yelling at us telling us how we are making a mistake and need to leave her with him for training. I don't think so.

And yes, we turned the man in as soon as we got home, and we called the police and filed a report. And yes, he is still in business today, over a year later.

And the dog is not alone alone, she has plenty of interaction with us and the cats and rabbits, and sleeps in our room at night. She just doesn't like most other dogs. And with the age of my Lab, we choose not to chance it. So she is kenneled during the day, out all night long until it's time for bed and she goes in our room with us.

 

[Gemsmom]

Kmay,

Even though she isn't a foster maybe there is some assistance they can give you. Granted I am in Michigan, I have a friend who is a trainer and she donates whatever amount of hours a month to the local shelters and I know she has made financial arrangements with private individuals in order to help them. Perhaps there is some kind of referral the Humane Society could give you.. I would ask when speaking to trainers if a financial arrangement is possible. If you google "low cost animal trainers" (obviously you would want to verify they are reputable, etc.) or "assistance affording dog training" it comes up with all kinds of things to weed thru if you have the time.

 

[kmay]

The shelter I fostered for won't even help me. They won't take her (even after all the years of fostering and " WE " paid for the food for the fosters) but they gave me the number of a trainer, he is one of the one's that cost $250 an hr. I did find one trainer that said she would come to the house and help for $25 an hr, but then I found out that she really isn't a trainer, she is a kennel assistant at a vets office that does some basic obedience training on the side. I don't think that's such a good idea.

Our local humane society (or dog pound) doesn't have trainers. We went in and talked to them and they said they could refer us to a trainer, and it was the same $250 an hr guy the shelter uses. Our vet gave us the number of 2 trainers/behavioralists, and they are both $200 and $250 an hr. The $200 an hr one wanted to charge us an extra $100 an hr to drive to us from 2 hrs away. It's rediculous.

I will see what Googling low cost comes up and then do some research on whoever I find.

And by the way, we are having to put the Dane to sleep this weekend. She is not responding to the medication at all, and the vet said with this new cancer meds, we should see a difference in a matter of 24 to 48 hrs, and along with the molitoff coctail of meds she's taking at home, we should have seen a difference in the first week, and she's no different. Actually appears to be worse. Unfortunately the vet says if we choose euthenasia, we will not be making the wrong decision as the bone cancer she has is a very aggressive form of cancer. :crytissue:

 

[Cody]

I am sorry to hear about your Dane. But I believe you are probably making the best decision based on her needs.

Hijack commence
@Gemsmom The Humane Society of the United States DOES NOT help animals. Nor is it affiliated with ANY animal shelter in the United States.
Quite the opposite, they are against ALL animal ownership and all breeding practices.
They are an alliance of PETA, who just so you know, runs one of the LARGEST kill shelter in the States, located in Virgina. In 2009 out of 2366 animals recieved 8 were adopted an the rest killed. That is an adoption rate of 0.34% .
Hell, all you have to do is look at HSUS's spoke person Mr Vick and their campaign to allow him to have dogs again, against the judgment of the courts, to see where there loyalty lies. It is a business.
http://humanewatch.org/
End Hijack