Calcium/Protein for puppies (How much is too much)

[LLJohnson10]

My new Bullmastiff puppy arrives next week, and I'd like to get you guys opinion on something. I've heard for years that you need to limit the amount of protein that you give your puppy, especially large/giant breeds.

One thing that seems to be close to a consensus is that Orijen is the best dry food out there, just way too expensive to average Joe's like me. Orijen, however, is very high in protein. Does that mean this food is bad for puppies? How much protein is too much? Too little?

There is another group who seem to argue that the protein content can't be too high, canines are carnivores, yada, yada, yada... They say that the main focus should be making sure you don't over due the calcium, believing that this causes irregularities in growth. How much is too much calcium? Too little?

I currently feed my German Shepherd Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream. I generally mix in ground cooked salmon (Wellnes 95% Salmon), and 2 big frozen pumpkin cubes (He loves to chew the frozen pumpkin). He does well on this diet.

The guaranteed analysis for this is as follows:
Protein: 25% Minimum, Fat: 15% Minimum
Calcium: 1.9%, as-fed; Phosphorus: 1.1%, as-fed

Is this adequate to give to my new giant breed puppy?

If I buy the Puppy formula of the Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream, the Calcium is lower, but the protein is higher

Protein: 27% Minimum, Fat: 15% Minimum
Calcium: 1.4%, as-fed; Phosphorus: 1.0%, as-fed

Is this more focused towards a regular pups nutrition, and not the Giant Breeds, or do you think this is better than giving the pup the adult formula? Why so?

What happens is a pup gets too much calcium anyway? Are their studies to back this up? Is a .5% difference in calcium a big deal?

I know i'm asking a ton of questions, but I want to make sure i'm doing whats right for my puppy. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Another thing that i've always wanted to try, but have been too afraid to do so in fear that I would mess up my dogs stools and cause upset stomach by switching meats within the same brand. I do vary my dogs treats, but it seems pretty boring having to eat the same flavor over, and over, and over (I can't really tell though because my Shepherd is absolutely food crazy). I'd like to try out the different formulas of Taste of the Wild, but i'm too afraid to mess with whats been working for my dog.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. I also would like to say that raw is probably not going to work for me at this time, so in your response, please know that raw is currently off the table.

If you want to see my pups recent pics, i've added a few to my album. I pick him up on the 19th, I can't wait!

Thanks All

 

[DMikeM]

You really want to be careful of the calcium. My Boerboel developed mineralization around the elbow cornoid process that gave a false elbow dysplasia diagnosis. She had a very bad limp to full lameness until I got it sorted out. I don't know how much is too much but she is RAW fed and I was giving ground egg shells, cottage cheese and a slice of kraft American cheese on occasion. Just a full calcium overload.

 

[LLJohnson10]

Sorry to hear that. I want to try to avoid situations like that. Are there any real dog nutritionists out there who have research backed by evidence? Or are they all just throwing darts blindfolded.

 

[DMikeM]

Just found out about a product. Looks good.
http://trophyanimalcare.com/page.php?ID_PRODUCTS=31449

 

[LLJohnson10]

I tried to click on the frequently asked questions link but the link was dead. This product appears to be supplementing dog food with even more calcium. So is the calcium a good or bad thing?

 

[DMikeM]

but it is balanced with the phosphorus. It was recommended to me by a breeder that I trust, so I just ordered a bottle for my new pup. I needed some DGP for the old dogs so I got it off Amazon.

Calcium is good as long as it is balanced with Phosphorus and D.

 

[DennasMom]

Hmmm.... Smart Family is our resident food guru. She suggested not adding any calcium supplements until after Denna was done growing for the most part (i.e. ~18 months of age).

From what I've learned here, protein levels are not the problem, calcium and phosphorus are. You want the bones to grow slow and let the muscles develop well around them.

Preferred levels are: Calcium 1.2-1.5% with Phosphorus balanced at 0.8-1.0 the Calcium number...
So, if you have 1.3% Calcium you want Phosphorus at 1.0-1.3%.

There are a bunch of vet-article links on this page: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

One includes this statement: "Regardless of the calcium-to-phosphorus ratio, excess dietary calcium intake in large-breed puppies has been shown to increase expression of all individual DODs [Developmental Orthopedic Disease]."

This is especially important for puppies under 6 months of age, when a puppy's system starts to gain the ability to manage excess calcium in the diet.

From the same article: "Another group of giant-breed puppies was fed the same high-calcium diet for a 4-month period but in a proper ratio to phosphorus after weaning. These puppies became slightly hypophosphatemic, but their growth was retarded and DOD occurred."

They go on to talk about the regulation effect of Vitamin D3... which may be the key to the supplement you mentioned, Mike.

The same article also points out the VERY important concept of not over-feeding. Keeping a giant-puppy LEAN as they grow does a bunch to minimize the potential for development disorders.

That article also goes on to talk about diet and GDV (bloat)... with some interesting conclusions.

The 3rd article listed agrees, saying:

"High mineral content [even given in proper proportions, emphasis mine] and caloric density of the diet have been associated with hypertrophic osteodystrophy, osteochondrosis and hip dysplasia in other studies of large and giant-breed dogs. Development of these conditions has been related to the rapid growth in pups fed high energy diets and the increased bone density and decreased bone remodeling in pups fed high mineral diets. Immature dogs do not appear to be able to effectively limit intestinal absorption of dietary calcium. Because of this inability, the higher the calcium level in the diet, the more calcium that will be absorbed and incorporated into developing bone. The resulting disturbances of endochondral ossification can lead to the characteristic skeletal and joint lesions."

Dr. Becker at Mercola always seems to have insightful information, too: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/04/09/slow-growth-diets-for-giant-breed-puppy.aspx


Not sure if I just added to your confusion, but hopefully you'll pick some good info out of the articles.

My conclusion would be -
Stick to a good big-breed puppy or all-stages food for at least the first 6 months before adding any supplements. Keep Calcium under 1.5% with a balanced phosphorus level and sufficient D3 (AAFCO levels are appropriate). And maintain the puppy's weight VERY lean (last 3 ribs should be easily seen when he's walking around).

Whew... that's a looong post....

 

[DMikeM]

Whew... that's a looong post....

But good post.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Yup, its not the protein thats the issue. I guess it used to be that the higher protein foods almost all had higher calcium/phos numbers TOO. But really teh protien only counts as it works properly for your dog. Some dogs do better on higher numbers while some do better on lower.

Its the calcium and phos thats the issue. Calcium should be between 1.0 to 1.8 % of your dog's daily intake of food. The "perfect" number is 1.4% BUT, many foods only list the minimum not the max, so I generally recommend sticking to the lower end of the good range. And the calcium to phos ratio should be 1.2 to 1.0.

And yes, adding extra calcium is bad, even if its in teh proper ratios with the phos.

 

[LLJohnson10]

Thank you very much. Those links were very informative. I've decided on what I will feed my pup based on some of the recommendations. What did you feed your pups DennasMom?

 

[longhorn2021]

Well, there is a lot of good information on this board. I never really gave my dog "puppy food". i just made sure the proper levels of calcium to phos were adhered to.
My advantage is that i feed my dog a mix of raw diet and kibble. (not at the same time). i feed her (cane corso) three times a day. ist two feedings are raw and the last meal is kibble. I have read that mixing the two is not good for digestion for the dog. They (i have two other dogs, not mastiffs) dont always eat a mix diet, only during hunting season. I make a venison meal for the dogs.

the dog food i use that has a good ratio is Earthborn Holistic Coastal Catch Grain-Free Natural Dry Dog Food from chewy.com
I like the auto ship feature so i dont have to go to the pet store and shipping is free and there is no tax if you buy over a certain $ amount. i sometimes mix the kibble with wet dog food. I personally use Dave's grain free wet food. my dogs love it.

For a supplement, which i dont give ALL the time, is Nupro All Natural Joint & Immunity Support Dog Supplement. i give to all three dogs, my 6 month old mastiff and my two older dogs. probably every other day.

Too much calcium and protein can lead the puppy to grow too fast and have joint problems later on. (this is information is have read)

i researched food and supplements for months before i started looking for my pup. Good luck!