Fear Aggression Gone Crazy

[julialyle32]

Hi All-

I've posted several times over the last year or so about my EM Buster. Most recently I posted this: Aggression in Adult English Mastiff - Mastiff Forum. This is somewhat a follow up to that post.

We've tried some "training" but only so much is possible when a) you can't have other people around to practice with without being highly embarrassed or putting them at risk and b) you don't dare take him out of the house hardly for fear of him seeing a stranger. He's learned to sit, shake with both hands, lay down, and somewhat roll over, but as far as behavior? Worse than ever.

He is completely out of control. It's like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde with him. Around the people he knows? Sweetest, laziest, lap dog around. Love him to death. See a stranger out the window? In the driveway? On the sidewalk? Dear god the world is ending. He is literally going to bust his way through our glass door one of these days. So now whenever people are over he gets locked in the bathroom. What a life, right? We're at the point where someday we want to have kids, we want to have family over for holidays, we want to have dinner guests. I love Bussy to death but he has to get the message that I'm not goofing around anymore and that he needs to listen to me. We've recently bought a new house and it has made it 1000x worse. He now feels like he owns the place and if anyone so much as steps onto our street they need to be taken out. He's like an angsty teenager and has a major attitude problem that needs to be taken care of.

Training is not an option as we can barely take him to the vet, traditional training methods (treats, etc) don't even phase him, and he's becoming a danger. It's time for extreme intervention. So I guess what I'm asking is - has anyone had any luck with shock/vibration collars for aggression, general attitude/unwillingness to listen? I'm not here to debate the humanity of shock/vibrate collars, I've used them in the past with success with other dogs but never for stranger danger issues. I'm at a loss as to what to do but something's gotta give. I'm getting really tired of not being able to take my dog out of the house other than to potty.

Thanks-
Julia

 

[julialyle32]

Just to clarify - I meant taking him to training classes like at a pet store aren't an option - we'd never get him through the door!

 

[Smokeycat]

To be honest that doesn't sound like fear aggression to me, it sounds more like you have a hard temp (think Fila) EM on your hands. If this is the case it is just the fact that he does NOT like strangers and training isn't going to change that. I know RugerKris' Ruger is like that and she could tell you how to handle a dog like that. The fila owners likewise could help you learn how to manage him safely. But he may never be a dog that is safe to have loose around or near strangers.

 

[karennj]

I believe straight out aggression is probably the worst dog to use shock collars on. You can probably snap them into stopping the behavior momentarily however that underlying aggression will always be there and at some point he will push through the correction and possibly even redirect his frustrations at people he knows and than you have a serious problem. Lets think through the scenario. He sees a stranger and starts to show aggression. You shock him to correct it, what have you taught him really? That strangers are even worse than he thought because now they cause him pain? You don't want any more negative association with his trigger than he already has. It will just make thinks worse. Have you had a actual behaviorist come into the home. Not just a trainer but a certified behaviorist. I think you need to get professional help.

 

[LizB]

I agree completely that the shock collar would likely be a disaster on a dog like you describe. Karennj's description is spot on.

The real problem here, also, is your own fear and anxiety of this issue. You can't, no matter how hard you try or think you're doing it, mask your thoughts and feelings from your dog. You can't help but feel worried when you realize someone's at the door, or you're taking him somewhere out of necessity (the vet) and you have to be concerned about what might happen. He can perceive all this from you, and it is not your fault, not at all - any rational person would have concerns like this - but it does contribute, and sets up a pattern that he is now following.

This is one of those times where perhaps the dog needs to go to a training facility with professionals who have handled this before, and then you go for training of your own with him there, so you can see him NOT doing the things you worry he might do, and this relaxes your mind, and gives YOU confidence, which you communicate to him, and the cycle can be broken. It takes a ton of work and commitment and money and all kinds of stuff, but it will be required, IMO.

I wish you the very best of luck with this - it is not an easy problem and does not have an easy solution, but I'm hopeful you can get him through it.

 

[angelbears]

I agree with LizB. I have a Fila and the first 3 years were hell because he could sense my fear and anxiety. He felt I wasn't in control during the times that he needed me most to be in control. I'm not a little shrinking flower, I'm pretty much a butch but he could tell that I was worried and that put him in a manic....I'm going to kill anyone that gets close to us mode . Through the years we have come to trust each other. I have never been scared that he would hurt me. Of all the dogs I have had he is the only one that I can say with the most certainty that he would bite me or hurt me on purpose.

We do take a lot of precautions. He is always put up when someone is over like a worker. We don't have guest over which is no big deal to us. If I want to visit with someone I go out to eat with them. That way I can leave when I'm ready. LOL

I highly suggest, like LizB, sending him off for training or at the very least having a trainer come to your house to evaluate him. I agree that a shock collar could just send him into over drive. At the very least you might try a muzzle. That might make you feel more comfortable and you might be surprised how much more control you may have over him.

Good Luck!

 

[julialyle32]

Thank you all for the wonderful advice and support! He's such a sweet boy and really does have a good heart. It can just be so FRUSTRATING! I really don't care if he ever likes strangers, he's just not a people person and that's totally fine. I just wish he would go back to how he used to be and just ignore/avoid the strangers. It's really frustrating going from having a dog I could walk, take to the dog park, take camping to a year later the same dog never being able to leave the house.

I would love to find a behaviorist but unfortunately they don't exist around here.. or if they do, they're impossible to find. I guess we'll just keep on trucking and keep on trying. Maybe try calling a few more trainers. I'm glad I'm not the only one with this issue though!

 

[angelbears]

It will not change without a lot of work. Which you don't seem ready to do.

Best advise in this case is to realize that you can't take this dog out and when you have strangers over he must be securely put away. Actually, it is pretty easy. I wouldn't feel sorry for your dog. He obviously doesn't like people or actually fears them. So, not being around them is fine with him.

 

[karennj]

Ask your vet or other vets in your area about behaviorists. These are people who generally take college courses in animal behavior, many of them vets. If you cannot find that the next best option would be a certified dog trainer who has experience with aggressive and reactive dogs (mastiff experience would be even better). I don't know if your in the states or not but if you are you can try searching here (check the box for certified instructors) - Dog Trainer Search

If that yields no results contact shelters as they often work with trainers on their problem dogs and could be a good resource for a contact.

Whatever you do, don't try to figure it out yourself. I tried that the first few weeks I had my boy and I actually made the situation worse. I finally got a certified trainer in and now I am correcting the mistakes I made but having a professional has been a HUGE help. I thought I knew a lot about dogs until she walked in my door. I was about ready to give up and she has turned everything around.

Where are you located?

 

[musicdeb]

IMO, a trainer is necessary ASAP that has trained mastiffs and uses positive reinforcement. IMO, trainers should be behaviorists as they have to know the pup's behavior to train them and behaviorists are a waste of time and money. If the trainer doesn't know the pup's behavior, how can they train them?

I believe the pup is feeding off your anxiety and frustration causing him to overreact and his behavior has gotten out of control due to the lack of training either by you or a trainer.

When I first got Titan he had horrible fear aggression because his past owner hit him and kept him locked in a room for 10-12 hours a day. It has taken 2 1/2 years, I've had Titan for 3 years this month, to get him about 80% at non-fearful aggression. He doesn't like men, male dogs, FedEX and UPS trucks and golf carts. He goes ballistic when he sees any of the aforementioned.

I hired a trainer the first month I had Titan which as a total waste of time and money. I've taken the journey to train Titan on my own with help from this forum and a facebook page of positive reinforcement trainers.

Here are some links for dog trainers:

Dog Trainer Search

Search for Professionals

Aggression Some Reasons Behind It | Suzanne Clothier

How much exercise does he get? A well exercised pup is a good pup. Sounds like he's over 12 months of age, so he can exercise at least or more an hour per day.

 

[season]

Positive training isn't going to help. Love isn't going to help. Your dog isn't aggressive (a term way over used) I would bet. What I would bet, though, is that he doesn't respect you or anyone else in the house. Love doesn't gain a dog's respect. Strict rules, boundaries and limitations earn respect. If a dog doesn't feel safe with the so called "leadership" in the house then it's up to them to do what works for them. Your dog is not balanced. He is frustrated. Anxious. Feels unsafe. Your dog needs leadership. Taking it to a pet store for their "positive training" garbage is a joke. Find someone that can help you first. By helping you then they can help the dog. Your dog needs consequences. Believable consequences for it's behaviors.

 

[karennj]

I think a trainer (even one that uses positive training methods) can help you to become a better leader. Deff do NOT go to a pet store for training. You need someone to come into the home. Mine is a "positive" trainer but all that means is she uses positive methods for shaping new behaviors. That does not mean she pussy foots around the dog. She has taught me to be much more in control and confident and that is what my boy needed in the end. I agree, you may be feeding your pup negative energy which is making the problem worse. You also mentioned your pregnant which may be sending him into protection overdrive. He needs to understand you have control and you need to deal with his core feelings towards strangers. A professional should be able to help you understand what is behind the behavior. Just find someone who can help you be more confident and in control. A lot of that can be communicated through basic training and simple leash communication (walking/threshold exercises). My boy has bad impulse control. Everything I do during the day requires him to exercise impulse control. The trainer gave me a plan and I am following it and seeing great results. Seriously, call local shelters and ask them if they can recommend someone. You need someone who is balanced.

 

[season]

I think a trainer (even one that uses positive training methods) can help you to become a better leader. Deff do NOT go to a pet store for training. You need someone to come into the home. Mine is a "positive" trainer but all that means is she uses positive methods for shaping new behaviors. That does not mean she pussy foots around the dog. She has taught me to be much more in control and confident and that is what my boy needed in the end. I agree, you may be feeding your pup negative energy which is making the problem worse. You also mentioned your pregnant which may be sending him into protection overdrive. He needs to understand you have control and you need to deal with his core feelings towards strangers. A professional should be able to help you understand what is behind the behavior. Just find someone who can help you be more confident and in control. A lot of that can be communicated through basic training and simple leash communication (walking/threshold exercises). My boy has bad impulse control. Everything I do during the day requires him to exercise impulse control. The trainer gave me a plan and I am following it and seeing great results. Seriously, call local shelters and ask them if they can recommend someone. You need someone who is balanced.

Well said! All the way around....I bash the "positive training" that doesn't believe in corrections. That they feel they are hurting the dog's "self esteem"....dog's need correction and guidance. Correction is not a "naughty" word in my book.

Again, well said. Impulse control is something so many ppl over look.

 

[karennj]

I get you Season. I think a lot of people have a misconception about "positive" training methods because of too many trainers who just shove treats in their dogs mouth to fix everything. There are lots of good trainers out there but lots of bad trainers as well! When I was recommended my trainer I almost didn't call her because on her homepage it said "positive training". In my mind I thought, how the heck is she going to help by shoveling treat after treat with lots of praise into a highly aroused dog which will only make him more aroused? I was pleasantly surprised during the first lesson when I was ignoring rude behavior and she told me not to let him get away with it. I have found out a lot of "positive" trainers are actually pretty balanced and that, I think, is what most dogs need.

 

[season]

I get you Season. I think a lot of people have a misconception about "positive" training methods because of too many trainers who just shove treats in their dogs mouth to fix everything. There are lots of good trainers out there but lots of bad trainers as well! When I was recommended my trainer I almost didn't call her because on her homepage it said "positive training". In my mind I thought, how the heck is she going to help by shoveling treat after treat with lots of praise into a highly aroused dog which will only make him more aroused? I was pleasantly surprised during the first lesson when I was ignoring rude behavior and she told me not to let him get away with it. I have found out a lot of "positive" trainers are actually pretty balanced and that, I think, is what most dogs need.

Touche'!