Great Dane - dog aggression

[SG1]

Excellent response Season an Cj, I concur. Hector thanks to you we now have a horse race. Let's see what happens.

 

[season]

I can safely say that Max wouldn't have made it if not for corrections. I was loosing the battle with him to the point of being in tears wanting confirmation he was beyond help and PTS was the answer. I'm not ashamed to admit it.
Then I started watching Cesar videos and realized loving him as being nice wasn't going to help. He can know he's loved but he had to realize that misbehaving consequences.
Now he's a good boy we are using clicker and positive training to build on those foundations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Love isn't just about hugs and kisses.

 

[season]

I can safely say that Max wouldn't have made it if not for corrections. I was loosing the battle with him to the point of being in tears wanting confirmation he was beyond help and PTS was the answer. I'm not ashamed to admit it.
Then I started watching Cesar videos and realized loving him as being nice wasn't going to help. He can know he's loved but he had to realize that misbehaving consequences.
Now he's a good boy we are using clicker and positive training to build on those foundations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Salute! Love isn't just about sharing affection.

 

[karennj]

I do believe you can train any dog without corrections it just takes a lot more work and most people don't have the skill or want to put in the effort to do it that way. When I was dealing with Bear's issues when I first got him I looked at both methods of training (old school using training tools such as prongs, ecollar, choke chains, corrections) and new school (desensitizing, counter conditioning, positive methods without negative corrections). I viewed lots of training videos of people using both methods and one thing I noticed is that the dogs getting corrections were stressed/anxious/shutting down (there is a big difference between "submitting" and shutting down) and the dogs using positive methods were happy, relaxed and having fun. At the end of the day I want a dog that listens but I also want a dog that has positive associations with everything. I don't want a stressed/anxious dog that is just complying to avoid a correction. I want a dog that is part of my team and working with me because it enjoys the interaction. I ended up getting a positive trainer who is firm but is not big on corrections. She was amazing and helped our situation so much. I went from not being able to have Bear off leash EVER to letting him run free around my kids. It took 5 months to get to this point with me working EVERY day to desensitize him to literally every new situation. He was like a dog that had spent his first 10months of life in a kennel with little exposure to new situations or people. He still has to be leashed around strange kids under 10yrs old, but I know with continued work we will get past that as well. It takes time but the time put in was worth it.

My goal is to eventually do therapy work with Bear. We are getting there slowly but he just started his therapy class and so far it is going well. This is technically the first group class Bear has done. All the other dogs in the class have done some sort of group obedience training. Anyway, Bear is very obedient at home. One thing I have not done much of yet is proofing his commands in public. Well, the first day of class that was very apparent because when I got into the middle of the room and told him to sit he did not listen. I tried to get his focus back but he was gone. Now to some people it looks like he is just refusing to listen and the trainers even told me to give him a correction (leash pop) which I refused. I asked them to continue on and I would work on it. So here are the reasons I refused to leash pop him into focus.

1. Him not focused on me is my issue not his. I did not work to proof his commands in distractions properly. I took him from home to public with all these dogs and people without letting him work up to it. I went 0 to 60 with nothing in between. It was my fault for not prepping him for the situation better. Lesson learned, work up to distractions so corrections aren't needed in the first place.

2. I want a bomb proof dog if I want to do therapy. I don't want any negative associations. If he learns that me pulling on his leash is a result of something he has done bad he will think anytime his leash is tugged he is doing something wrong. While doing therapy there is always the chance of someone jerking/tugging his leash as I am dealing with elderly, children with special needs, etc. I can't have him interacting with a child who then mistakenly pulls his leash and now he thinks that interaction was bad. Bomb proof, no negative associations.

So anyway, after the class I spent that next week working Bear in public places. We went to the pet stores, a busy town square, etc and I proofed his commands and his focus on me. The next class he was already much better.

So that is why I choose to stick with positive methods. Even today people believe that you cannot teach schuchund/IPO without using ecollars/corrections, but by golly people are doing it and the dogs are happy and well balanced.

 

[season]

Just like I've read articles on this "positive" training and also on clicker training since I like to learn new things that I might be able to use....well, I've also read this one and hope others do to. Ed Frawley has as much experience working with dogs as anyone. He's admitted to learning better ways and using better ways. I look to him as one of my role models....when he speaks I listen....his experience speaks for it'self. His growth (along with Michael Ellis) speak for themselves.

Leerburg Dog Training | The Problem with All-Positive Dog Training

 

[season]

"For me the real ART OF DOG TRAINING means being able to control my dog is a highly distracting environment. To accomplish that the trainer needs to be able to produce a dog that understands and respects the consequences of not following a known command. The trainer who can do that and yet still have a really nice bond with his dog is a great trainer.
With all this said, there are two ends of the correction spectrum. At one end are trainers who consistently give ineffective corrections that don't change behavior. They nag their dog with non-behavior changing corrections that have little to no effect on the dog. Ineffective corrections desensitize a dog to corrections. They simply teach a dog that they don't need to pay attention to the handler.
At the other end of the correction spectrum are those trainers who feel the need to punish a dog with a correction. These handlers can train a dog but they never develop what I consider is a deep bond with their dog.
Trainers who give a prong collar correction to a dog that would have offered a behavior change with a verbal warning are abusing their dog. Trainers who nag their dog with repeated ineffective corrections desensitize their dog to corrections."
- Ed Frawley

 

[karennj]

I have read the first article and frankly I don't agree. Bear exhibited many of the things he stated could not be fixed without corrections, yet, I have been able to do it with the help of the trainer (could never have done it on my own). His comment about corrections being used to change a dogs behavior I suppose are true because it will stop the dog from barking and lunging at the stranger but desensitization and competing behaviors would stop that as well. Without a doubt it would take longer but it will work. He mentions high drive dogs because it was thought you could not train high drive dogs using positive methods but It can and is done.

I suppose one of the issues is the terms being used don't mean the same to everyone. Correction to me may be tightening the prong or popping the leash, or rolling the dog over where to you it may just be a firm "no". I will tell Bear "no" but for example if he is trying to "chase a critter" I would rather have taught a solid leave it and worked to desensitize the dog on the movement vs. correcting with a prong when they try to chase. I feel like one method results in positive associations and the other in negative associations. Both methods will work.

There are many ways to go about training something and I do believe they are all effective. Yes you can fix aggression without corrections. I am not here to say one method is better than another nor do I believe in following everything from a trainer. Believe It or not I actually like some things Ceasar does (teaching people to be more confident, keeping dogs in a relaxed state, etc). But I also disagree with other things and just throw that to the side. I think everyone should pick the information that makes sense and not follow blindly along. For me I focus on positive associations and building a bond with my dog. I want a dog that enjoys working with me.

I would recommend everyone who is watching videos for training advice not only look at how well the dog is behaving but look at the dogs body language. If the dog is showing signs of stress then the method is not worth it. If you can't tell then you need to learn body language before you train.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Instead of reading Ed Frawle and his views on positive dog training, research those who actually do it such as Kathy Sdao, Susan Freidman, Ken Ramirez, Kay Laurence to name but a few. As for my training videos, my stuff is there for all to see on Youtube, I don't hide anything. Videos of me working with an Ovcharka are there also. We don;t need to correct out dogs but if you think or believe we do, then those beliefs will limit your ability.

 

[season]

I have read the first article and frankly I don't agree. Bear exhibited many of the things he stated could not be fixed without corrections, yet, I have been able to do it with the help of the trainer (could never have done it on my own). His comment about corrections being used to change a dogs behavior I suppose are true because it will stop the dog from barking and lunging at the stranger but desensitization and competing behaviors would stop that as well. Without a doubt it would take longer but it will work. He mentions high drive dogs because it was thought you could not train high drive dogs using positive methods but It can and is done.

I suppose one of the issues is the terms being used don't mean the same to everyone. Correction to me may be tightening the prong or popping the leash, or rolling the dog over where to you it may just be a firm "no". I will tell Bear "no" but for example if he is trying to "chase a critter" I would rather have taught a solid leave it and worked to desensitize the dog on the movement vs. correcting with a prong when they try to chase. I feel like one method results in positive associations and the other in negative associations. Both methods will work.

There are many ways to go about training something and I do believe they are all effective. Yes you can fix aggression without corrections. I am not here to say one method is better than another nor do I believe in following everything from a trainer. Believe It or not I actually like some things Ceasar does (teaching people to be more confident, keeping dogs in a relaxed state, etc). But I also disagree with other things and just throw that to the side. I think everyone should pick the information that makes sense and not follow blindly along. For me I focus on positive associations and building a bond with my dog. I want a dog that enjoys working with me.

I would recommend everyone who is watching videos for training advice not only look at how well the dog is behaving but look at the dogs body language. If the dog is showing signs of stress then the method is not worth it. If you can't tell then you need to learn body language before you train.

Well said.

 

[season]

Instead of reading Ed Frawle and his views on positive dog training, research those who actually do it such as Kathy Sdao, Susan Freidman, Ken Ramirez, Kay Laurence to name but a few. As for my training videos, my stuff is there for all to see on Youtube, I don't hide anything. Videos of me working with an Ovcharka are there also. We don;t need to correct out dogs but if you think or believe we do, then those beliefs will limit your ability.

I've watched most of the YouTube vids.....they are well done and you do a good job in the setting that's was created for them...but they seem set up and controlled in my opinion....I'd like to see a vid of you just walking a dog or working with a dog in ah uncontrolled environment where it hasn't been rehearsed. I get a lot more out of videos like that....no matter who the "trainer" is. Then I might buy more of this "positive" training. I don't see any vids of a "positive" trainer walking their dog at a park or on the street and comes upon a distraction then shows how they deal with it in real time. Show me that video with positive only and no corrections and I might start buying what's being sold.

 

[SG1]

Let me go into a little more detail on my post and reiterate some points. I agree a thousand percent Karennjay, dogs can be trained using a variety of methods to do basic obedience like heel, sit stay... even SGs. It can even be done using all positive methods that you champion. If your avatar depicts the dog you have and my eyes aren't playing tricks on me you have a GD. I noticed you use Bear as an example many times, I hate to burst your bubble but a GD is not an SG by any stretch of the imagination. Give me an example of a fila, TM, or Akbash being worked using positive reinforcement only methods to support your position.

My entire premise is that Clicker, positive NILF or what ever it is called states it will not work RELIABLY on an SG with a proper SG temperament. That means no shy, submissive confrontation avoiding SG. If it will work all I ask is please post the video to prove it. If you or any member can produce several videos (because any body can get lucky or find a weak willed poor specimen of an SG and train it, I am willing to reconsider my position.

Taking five months to train a dog to do one or two commands is fine when your dealing with lesser dogs. But when your dealing with a true SG time is of the essence. The longer it takes the more the SG realizes it's owner does not know what he or she is doing. Evidence of this is reading many posts where owners have said everything was going well until their dog reached eight months or older then the wheels fell off. The dog is showing aggression towards the owner or family members or other dogs and they can't put the Jeannie back in the bottle. Now please show me your evidence.

Using positive only techniques will not teach an SG not to be destructive if left alone un-kenneled and don't even think about leaving two or more home alone using the above methods. Some one will have a dead dog in in fifteen minutes trying to wait five months to train them not to fight.

Glasgowdogtrainer I have much respect for you for trying to take your game to the next level by working with the OC. Would you be willing to post your work and results like you did with the GD? Can the owner using your methods leave the OC home alone un-kenneled without being destructive? If so please post a video so we can see your work. Can that OC walk in a public place with people and dogs in close proximity with out trying to attack them? If so can you post a video for the members?

Anybody can say they can do something or claim they have a new and improved technique but can they prove it with real serious dogs and not ordinary dogs?

The lack of any videos let alone credible ones.. indicates the answer if NO.

 

[Hector]

I've watched most of the YouTube vids.....they are well done and you do a good job in the setting that's was created for them...but they seem set up and controlled in my opinion....I'd like to see a vid of you just walking a dog or working with a dog in ah uncontrolled environment where it hasn't been rehearsed. I get a lot more out of videos like that....no matter who the "trainer" is. Then I might buy more of this "positive" training. I don't see any vids of a "positive" trainer walking their dog at a park or on the street and comes upon a distraction then shows how they deal with it in real time. Show me that video with positive only and no corrections and I might start buying what's being sold.

An example - dog shows up during training session.

[video=youtube;HEN2HenesT8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEN2HenesT8[/video]

I use positive reinforcement as much as I can, but in my world I really don't think that's possible. With that being said, I do a lot of training/focus work/desensitization/proofing (set ups) all with positive reinforcement. I put a lot of thought and time in my dog's training because I don't want to rely on corrections. I don't want a dog that only listens on leash or when it's controlled by an e-collar. I want a dog that is willing to work with me, understands and follows my expectations.

All of these achieved with positive reinforcement, no setups.


Here's me and my dog on a walk and a lady walks by and I did not expect this - she is not filmed in the video, but you can tell Hector is looking at something.

Utilizing space - YouTube


loose dog, totally random

whistle recall high distraction - loose dog - YouTube

in this one, he decided to bark at a man on the deck

Recalled from barking at someone - YouTube

Recall at 18 months - first time on the field - at the end u see he was running towards the fenced area to check something out

18 months - YouTube

first time trying this, other dogs are eating nearby

leaveitdrumstick - YouTube


I didn't even see the man walking by

recall practice - YouTube

 

[Hector]

Okay just posted videos of me and my fila. His resource guarding issues were resolved with positive reinforcement/ behavior mod training.

 

[Hector]

Let me go into a little more detail on my post and reiterate some points. I agree a thousand percent Karennjay, dogs can be trained using a variety of methods to do basic obedience like heel, sit stay... even SGs. It can even be done using all positive methods that you champion. If your avatar depicts the dog you have and my eyes aren't playing tricks on me you have a GD. I noticed you use Bear as an example many times, I hate to burst your bubble but a GD is not an SG by any stretch of the imagination. Give me an example of a fila, TM, or Akbash being worked using positive reinforcement only methods to support your position.

My entire premise is that Clicker, positive NILF or what ever it is called states it will not work RELIABLY on an SG with a proper SG temperament. That means no shy, submissive confrontation avoiding SG. If it will work all I ask is please post the video to prove it. If you or any member can produce several videos (because any body can get lucky or find a weak willed poor specimen of an SG and train it, I am willing to reconsider my position.

Taking five months to train a dog to do one or two commands is fine when your dealing with lesser dogs. But when your dealing with a true SG time is of the essence. The longer it takes the more the SG realizes it's owner does not know what he or she is doing. Evidence of this is reading many posts where owners have said everything was going well until their dog reached eight months or older then the wheels fell off. The dog is showing aggression towards the owner or family members or other dogs and they can't put the Jeannie back in the bottle. Now please show me your evidence.

Using positive only techniques will not teach an SG not to be destructive if left alone un-kenneled and don't even think about leaving two or more home alone using the above methods. Some one will have a dead dog in in fifteen minutes trying to wait five months to train them not to fight.

Glasgowdogtrainer I have much respect for you for trying to take your game to the next level by working with the OC. Would you be willing to post your work and results like you did with the GD? Can the owner using your methods leave the OC home alone un-kenneled without being destructive? If so please post a video so we can see your work. Can that OC walk in a public place with people and dogs in close proximity with out trying to attack them? If so can you post a video for the members?

Anybody can say they can do something or claim they have a new and improved technique but can they prove it with real serious dogs and not ordinary dogs?

The lack of any videos let alone credible ones.. indicates the answer if NO.

Separation anxiety and dog reactivity is two completely different issues???

You are making no sense whatsoever. Have you ever tried these methods? Do you even understand the process and methodology?

 

[karennj]

Let me go into a little more detail on my post and reiterate some points. I agree a thousand percent Karennjay, dogs can be trained using a variety of methods to do basic obedience like heel, sit stay... even SGs. It can even be done using all positive methods that you champion. If your avatar depicts the dog you have and my eyes aren't playing tricks on me you have a GD. I noticed you use Bear as an example many times, I hate to burst your bubble but a GD is not an SG by any stretch of the imagination. Give me an example of a fila, TM, or Akbash being worked using positive reinforcement only methods to support your position.

No, your eyes aren't playing tricks on you. Bear is a Great Dane. No bubble busted by any means. I was using Bear as an example in response to the leeburg article posted because leeburg said you cannot fix certain issues without corrections and a few of those issues are ones that I dealt with Bear. I understand your big on the superior guardian or whatever SG means but I think you get hung up on the breed too much. I know you have listed pitbulls in there as well and honestly I have seen labs more aggressive than the pit bulls I know. I am always up for a challenge and could scour the internet looking for video examples of "SG's" being trained using only positive methods but even if I did I honestly don't think it would change the way you work with your dogs. Like I said I am not here to try and change anyone's mind about the way they train. I am just explaining why I use the methods I do and why they work well for us. To each their own. I don't care what method people use frankly, as long as they can do it without stressing their dog. If you use mild, moderate or even harsh corrections and your dog is not stressed then great. I choose to try to not use corrections. I find it is absolutely harder to train this way but I also love the feeling of getting the results I want without using force. It is much harder to change the mind of a dog vs. changing a behavior. I talk a lot about Bear because I am very proud of where he is today. I literally worked my butt off to get to this point. No he is not a Fila, but he is a huge dog who was chasing down my kids and biting them if they did anything new. The 5 months was not spent on teaching him one or two commands. I literally had to desensitize him to everything the kids did on a individual basis. jumping, crawling, crying, swinging, riding bikes, running, fighting, climbing, etc. Every single action was like starting all over again. He literally went berserk every time my kids did something new.

My entire premise is that Clicker, positive NILF or what ever it is called states it will not work RELIABLY on an SG with a proper SG temperament. That means no shy, submissive confrontation avoiding SG. If it will work all I ask is please post the video to prove it. If you or any member can produce several videos (because any body can get lucky or find a weak willed poor specimen of an SG and train it, I am willing to reconsider my position.

So what method do you use with a SG if they cannot be taught to perform a job or work as a team with their owner without being forced into that position?

Taking five months to train a dog to do one or two commands is fine when your dealing with lesser dogs. But when your dealing with a true SG time is of the essence. The longer it takes the more the SG realizes it's owner does not know what he or she is doing. Evidence of this is reading many posts where owners have said everything was going well until their dog reached eight months or older then the wheels fell off. The dog is showing aggression towards the owner or family members or other dogs and they can't put the Jeannie back in the bottle. Now please show me your evidence.

I have a feeling your idea of positive training is not truly what positive training is about. Its not pussy footing around the dog and shoving treats in their mouth praying they will listen. People who have a 8month old suddenly out of control probably did a bunch of things wrong and I highly doubt using positive reinforcement during their training sessions is the cause. I have heard people say the same thing when their dog reaches 1.5 to 2. The owners come into my vet asking why the dog is suddenly fear aggressive when they followed Caesars advice and forced them into "submission". It got to the point we no longer show natgeo or whatever station he is on in our office for fear that his show will come on. People have seriously messed up their dogs trying to become "alpha" over them. I would think trying to dominate a SG would seriously backfire because you could either end up with an anxious dog or a dog that no longer wants to be bullied and decides one day to fight back. Again, no point looking for evidence, it really isn't going to change anything.

Using positive only techniques will not teach an SG not to be destructive if left alone un-kenneled and don't even think about leaving two or more home alone using the above methods. Some one will have a dead dog in in fifteen minutes trying to wait five months to train them not to fight.

So let me try to understand this. How is using corrections going to change destructive behavior? Your dog chews something and hours later when you get home you correct them for it and that stops it from happening again? I just don't see how that is effective? What do you consider positive techniques for dealing with destruction? To me, if my dog is destructive I believe I am dealing with either boredom, which should be addressed by meeting the needs of the dog better (physically and mentally) or I am dealing with anxiety which absolutely should not be dealt with using force. Also, if your dogs do not get along and you do not change their mind your really only suppressing their behavior to not act on their thoughts due to fear of corrections. I personally would rather change the way they feel about each other vs. suppressing the behavior out of fear of a correction. Just the way I would approach it, but your right I only have owned normal mastiffs not SG so who knows....

 

[Hector]

karennj, I love your posts.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Seaon, all the videos on my channel show real lfe training in a public park. We deal with problems as they arise, but non of them are "set up". I deliberately go to area where we encounter all the things you'd encounter on a walk. This is where we practice. As both the owner and the dog become more experienced, we then practice those skills on a walk. Non of the training is artificial.

 

[season]

Seaon, all the videos on my channel show real lfe training in a public park. We deal with problems as they arise, but non of them are "set up". I deliberately go to area where we encounter all the things you'd encounter on a walk. This is where we practice. As both the owner and the dog become more experienced, we then practice those skills on a walk. Non of the training is artificial.

Do you have any vids of you or a client walking a dog in a neighborhood where there are riled up, barking from behind a fence and all sorts of crazy? I encounter that alot on our walks. Some I do on purpose because I know the dogs are always out barking at anything that moves and some that just take us by surprise....either way I see a lot of owners lose control of their dog in those situations and don't deal with it properly. I'd love to see how you deal with those kinds of situations with your methods.

 

[season]

Had some typos that I'm correcting....I was talking about encountering other dogs while on a neighborhood walk that are chained up, fenced in and acting all kinds of stupid....barking, lunging etc. How do you handle those situations? Or do u choose to avoid them and go to a park where you have a little more freedom and control over your environment?

I like parks, but I also like taking Solo on walks in different parts of town...I've done that from day one, just to get him socialized and comfortable in many different settings. Needless to say you come across some unruly dogs and some that you aren't expecting....so I do and know what works for me and my dog so we can enjoy our walk no matter where we are but I see a lot of people who can't do that because their dog reacts to the other dogs or cats or squirrels etc and they don't care to listen to their owner anymore. I'd love to see a video in one of those situation where you are walking a dog in a neighborhood, not a park, where you have less time to prepare for distractions. That's what I that was referring to when I use the word "staged." A park is a great place to do that kind of work....you can create a lot more distance and it's easier to avoid things.

 

[Hector]

Had some typos that I'm correcting....I was talking about encountering other dogs while on a neighborhood walk that are chained up, fenced in and acting all kinds of stupid....barking, lunging etc. How do you handle those situations? Or do u choose to avoid them and go to a park where you have a little more freedom and control over your environment?

I like parks, but I also like taking Solo on walks in different parts of town...I've done that from day one, just to get him socialized and comfortable in many different settings. Needless to say you come across some unruly dogs and some that you aren't expecting....so I do and know what works for me and my dog so we can enjoy our walk no matter where we are but I see a lot of people who can't do that because their dog reacts to the other dogs or cats or squirrels etc and they don't care to listen to their owner anymore. I'd love to see a video in one of those situation where you are walking a dog in a neighborhood, not a park, where you have less time to prepare for distractions. That's what I that was referring to when I use the word "staged." A park is a great place to do that kind of work....you can create a lot more distance and it's easier to avoid things.

I'd love to see a video of you demonstrating your work in the situations you described and I'd love to see the level of control you have over your dog.