I feel Like the worst mother in the whole world...

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Well isn't this a hot topic! I have to say that reading everyones replies and responses have been an eye opener for me....and I have to say, for me, Kris and Terie have it down to a 't'. IMO my dog lives with me, I don't live with it. What I say goes, end of story. You growl at me I am going to growl back one hell of a lot louder and with one hell of a lot more 'force'. You do as I say, end of story. And for those of you who don't know me I am an owner for a 4 year old TM bitch with a medium to hard temperament. She would however NEVER think about growling at me EVER for any reason. Why? Because what I say goes. That's it and that all about it. This is my house, I own her butt and everything that surrounds it. I also own an Akita dog and he is the same, he knows that anything that comes out of my mouth he better do. I have never hot either one of them, ever, but I have let them know from day one that I do not mess around when it comes to telling them what I want them to do. Mooshi doesn't like having her nails trimmed and will 'argue' with me by pulling her feet away as much as she can, guess what...she gets them done anyway. Yeah she gets a reward when i am done with her BUT she does as she is told first. A nice loud OI! or NO! is all it takes for her to settle her ass down and let me get on with the job. For me this has nothing to do with treats or bribery or food rewards it has to do with attitude and who has more of it and that person is me. I have confidence, strength and attitude coming out my backside when it comes to my dogs because as I said earlier they live with me I don't live with them. Take it or leave it, you don't like it? Tough sh*t you gotta do it anyway because I said so. End of story. IMO the OP has to go back to basics and stand up for themselves, let their dog, TM or otherwise, know who rules the roost and who makes the rules. If that cant be done and they are living in some sort of fear of the dog, get rid of the dog because that dog picks up on that fear and one day someone is going to get hurt, badly. BTW my two are spoiled beyond belief....they get taken on holidays, they have more treats than I probably have underwear and they are loved and fussed and spoiled plain and simple. BUT and I mean BUT they know, without a shadow of a doubt that when I tell them to do something they do it, no questions asked.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Hi, Tammy!!! So glad you found this thread. It would appear that if I (or anyone else) hasn't owned a TM, we can't know what shoud be done or have an opinion on such. I am so happy to see that you agree with those of us that said NOT ACCEPTABLE EVER!! Of course, I knew you would as we are very like with our dogs as far as spoiling AND training. It is so good to see you back here in the forum and all of that attitude, too. Love you!

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Love you too chic and if ya aint got attitude you aint got nothing. Jeepers that's bad grammer but who gives .....it means the same thing said nicely or otherwise.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I am hoping anyway that was partaking in this thread or following it for knowledge purposes will come back and see what you posted as it could help them so much since you are a TM owner telling them that there is another option and that they CAN have a TM that trusts them completely and can be trained to do what they have to do. Your timing is impeccable!!

 

[ruthcatrin]

Big Whoop? Really? LOL Taking the item makes the dog understand that threatening you to get what they want doesn't work. It is a fairly simple concept. I get that the only thing you care about is being right, Ruth but in the end......Our opinions ared our opinions, neither right or wrong.

So....you take away something they prize, and then you do nothing to re-inforce the concept that giving up is good. How does that teach the dog a single thing except that you're bigger and badder and they'll have to work harder to guard it next time.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Not sure how that ended up in the middle of your comment bubble but here it is again....I didn't insist that you are advocating anything. I simply said that a TM is a dog not a mystical unicorn and they need to be trained just like any other dog regardless of their breed specific "quirks" and that any dog that you can't trust is unsafe...PERIOD. I also said that a dog (regardless of breed) should not be allowed to threaten their owner and when a owner cannot control their dog, they shouldn't own one. I can post the messages you sent at the beginning of this thread if you would like. You know where you agree with me in a PM but not in the thread? Also, you change your opinion depending on who is part of the thread and what they say. You can't have a debate with someone that doesn't actually believe in anything but changes according to their atmosphere and who is in it. in the end...I will say AGAIN....We can agree to disagree but MY opinion doesn't change according to what the next guy thinks. It is what I truly believe and have proven in my life no matter who agrees or doesn't

Read more: http://www.mastiff-forum.com/showth...her-in-the-whole-world.../page4#ixzz3GsPIcQNM

I'll post the PMs myself if you want, I NEVER SAID that its ok for a dog to threaten its owner. But somehow thats what this thread has turned into. WHERE DID I SAY its ok for a dog to threaten its owner. Seriously. Link to the post. You've turned this into a big fight cause OBVIOUSLY somewhere I said that. SO quote me.

And then somehow you turn my insistence that you can't just force a TM to do what you want into OBVIOUSLY that means that they can't be trained or trusted. And yet thats NOT what I said. YOU'RE the one arguing for something that WASN'T said.

 

[ruthcatrin]

You growl at me I am going to growl back one hell of a lot louder and with one hell of a lot more 'force'. You do as I say, end of story. And for those of you who don't know me I am an owner for a 4 year old TM bitch with a medium to hard temperament.

So Mooshi growls at you, and you deal with the growl only and assume that fixes the problem.

Right.

I don't think so, I know you better than that.

Mooshi growls at you, and regardless of how you handle the growl you FIGURE OUT THE PROBLEM AND FIX IT. Cause you've TRAINED HER and SOCIALIZED her to not only accept whats normal but also to adapt to new normal, so if she's growling THERE"S A PROBLEM.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Somehow this thread turned into an argument over what PROPERLY WELL TRAINED AND SOCIALIZED ADULT DOG is supposed to do, and thats not what this thread is about. And I think its confusing the arguments even more.

You can't teach a dog who's not been properly trained and handled to not RG items if you don't teach them that giving up things is good. Snatching it out of their mouth while they growl at you is risky to both you and the dog if they've not been trained right. And it doesn't teach the dog a damn thing except next time they'll have to try harder to protect it. Or gulp it down faster, which is even worse.

And while I totally agree that backing down from a growl from one of these dogs is NOT the way to handle it, if you DO have a properly trained and socialized dog who growls at you (their bonded owner), you'd better damn well listen to what they're trying to tell you because you HAVE A PROBLEM to fix. And punishing the growl and assuming that IS the fix is only going to get you a world of hurt later.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I didn't take away something they prize, I took away something they decided they OWNED and in such a manner that they believed they could challneg me and threaten me and they would learn...They would learn that behavior was unacceptable. It isn't about being bigger and badder because the reality is that if it were to occurr with either one of mine, they are twice the size of me so it is about the fact that it is unacceptable behavior and will not be tolerated.

So....you take away something they prize, and then you do nothing to re-inforce the concept that giving up is good. How does that teach the dog a single thing except that you're bigger and badder and they'll have to work harder to guard it next time.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

NOW you say "regardless of how you handle the growl" but the argument IS and WAS that you felt it was wrong to take/snatch the something they were guarding.

So Mooshi growls at you, and you deal with the growl only and assume that fixes the problem.

Right.

I don't think so, I know you better than that.

Mooshi growls at you, and regardless of how you handle the growl you FIGURE OUT THE PROBLEM AND FIX IT. Cause you've TRAINED HER and SOCIALIZED her to not only accept whats normal but also to adapt to new normal, so if she's growling THERE"S A PROBLEM.

 

[ruthcatrin]

NOW you say "regardless of how you handle the growl" but the argument IS and WAS that you felt it was wrong to take/snatch the something they were guarding.

You're quoting my other posts, did you actually read them?

 

[Rugers-Kris]

This thread is about RG...PERIOD. All aspects have been discussed...How to train to avoid it, What to do when it happens and so on. It is about exactly what the OP posted. Why is that a problem? You aren't giving dogs enough credit. Do you think they are so stupid?

Somehow this thread turned into an argument over what PROPERLY WELL TRAINED AND SOCIALIZED ADULT DOG is supposed to do, and thats not what this thread is about. And I think its confusing the arguments even more.

You can't teach a dog who's not been properly trained and handled to not RG items if you don't teach them that giving up things is good. Snatching it out of their mouth while they growl at you is risky to both you and the dog if they've not been trained right. And it doesn't teach the dog a damn thing except next time they'll have to try harder to protect it. Or gulp it down faster, which is even worse.

And while I totally agree that backing down from a growl from one of these dogs is NOT the way to handle it, if you DO have a properly trained and socialized dog who growls at you (their bonded owner), you'd better damn well listen to what they're trying to tell you because you HAVE A PROBLEM to fix. And punishing the growl and assuming that IS the fix is only going to get you a world of hurt later.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Actually what I quoted was your recent post but yes I read them and you DID tell the OP that she did the right thing by backing off. You DID say grabbing the item was the wrong way to handle it. You DID say that. You have been arguing THAT point with me for two days now. Have you read what you wrote? You have been arguing all along that it is the wrong thing to do.

You're quoting my other posts, did you actually read them?

 

[ruthcatrin]

I didn't take away something they prize, I took away something they decided they OWNED and in such a manner that they believed they could challneg me and threaten me and they would learn...They would learn that behavior was unacceptable. It isn't about being bigger and badder because the reality is that if it were to occurr with either one of mine, they are twice the size of me so it is about the fact that it is unacceptable behavior and will not be tolerated.

Because you TAUGHT THEM to respect you from day one. I CAN go take anything I want out of Apollo's mouth, BECAUSE I TAUGHT HIM to let me. That doesn't make it the right response even if he does break training and decides to guard something inappropriate. If my properly trained and socialized dog is suddenly RGing something I've got a larger problem to deal with, and I need to seriously consider that there's something wrong mentally thats causing him to and that means that snatching it away from him ISN'T going to get me ANY sort of response that I want.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I didn't tell her to back off.

I told her that in retrospect that grabbing the collar to move Laufey from the prized item, as an initial response even before Laufey growled, probly wasn't the right response.

Not nessecarily wrong? But I think for now anytime you need to remove something from her (assuming its not poison) always trade up, and only then (like this when you need to clean up) move her. At least till she and you reach an understanding on you taking things from her.

Laufey has proved to not have a good leave it, drop it, and no concept that giving up is good. Untill she HAS that she's going to RG. And sticking a hand in her mouth to remove it, untill she has those skills, is only going to make it worse, and risk a bite from a dog who clearly doesn't have that bonding yet.

 

[ruthcatrin]

This thread is about RG...PERIOD. All aspects have been discussed...How to train to avoid it, What to do when it happens and so on. It is about exactly what the OP posted. Why is that a problem? You aren't giving dogs enough credit. Do you think they are so stupid?

Why do you think a single instance of you snatching something from a dog who's RGing it is going to fix the problem?

 

[Rugers-Kris]

"But I think for now anytime you need to remove something from her (assuming its not poison) always trade up, and only then (like this when you need to clean up) move her."

"Yup, something high value. Offer the treat withone hand and take away the item with the other."
I'm not saying that backing down from a growl is the right thing to do, cause if you want the dog to respect you then you damn well don't. Instead you SHOULD be pro-active to keep it from escalating in the first place. And if that involves a bribe to de-escalate then you do so, then figure out the training to keep it from happening again.

"And regardless of how you deal with the growl (though punishing it really is about the worst thing you can do"

"Demanding the dog release a high value item without ensuring they know the concept just leads to failure, if not at first then eventually. Especially with a dog who doesn't really give a shit if you're in charge or not."


" You can't go into training a TM assuming that normal methods work. They might. Depends on the dog, what the training goal is, what the training method is, the age of the dog, and what else is going on. They might not. Depends on the dog, the training goal, the method, the age of the dog, and what else is going on. You CANNOT demand something of a TM and expect them to trust and respect you. They don't work that way. Well, you can demand they guard you from evil. They'll do that regardless of what you do, so you could get away with that....."

"So then what, you took the item. Big whoop. How does that fix the RGing?"

 

[Rugers-Kris]

How can you sit on here in threads and talk about how smart and capable dogs are (Especially TM's) and then have the audacity to say that if a dog growls at you and you firmly take the object away, they won't understand? We talk about how smart our dogs are from the moment we bring them home and how they just "know" things. How they read us, how they understand our moods and such...Now they are too stupid to understand that they growled at us and we got nasty and took the item and why?

Why do you think a single instance of you snatching something from a dog who's RGing it is going to fix the problem?

 

[ruthcatrin]

"But I think for now anytime you need to remove something from her (assuming its not poison) always trade up, and only then (like this when you need to clean up) move her."

"Yup, something high value. Offer the treat withone hand and take away the item with the other."
I'm not saying that backing down from a growl is the right thing to do, cause if you want the dog to respect you then you damn well don't. Instead you SHOULD be pro-active to keep it from escalating in the first place. And if that involves a bribe to de-escalate then you do so, then figure out the training to keep it from happening again.

"And regardless of how you deal with the growl (though punishing it really is about the worst thing you can do"

"Demanding the dog release a high value item without ensuring they know the concept just leads to failure, if not at first then eventually. Especially with a dog who doesn't really give a shit if you're in charge or not."


" You can't go into training a TM assuming that normal methods work. They might. Depends on the dog, what the training goal is, what the training method is, the age of the dog, and what else is going on. They might not. Depends on the dog, the training goal, the method, the age of the dog, and what else is going on. You CANNOT demand something of a TM and expect them to trust and respect you. They don't work that way. Well, you can demand they guard you from evil. They'll do that regardless of what you do, so you could get away with that....."

"So then what, you took the item. Big whoop. How does that fix the RGing?"

Can you bold the phrase "you should back off" please? Cause I don't see it anywhere in that set of quotes.

You keep insisting I'm saying something I'm not.

I didn't tell TMmom to back off, I didn't say its appropriate for a dog to threaten its owner, I didn't say TMs are untrainable and untrustworthy. And you keep insisting I am. You've turned this into an argument over something that wasn't said.

 

[ruthcatrin]

How can you sit on here in threads and talk about how smart and capable dogs are (Especially TM's) and then have the audacity to say that if a dog growls at you and you firmly take the object away, they won't understand? We talk about how smart our dogs are from the moment we bring them home and how they just "know" things. How they read us, how they understand our moods and such...Now they are too stupid to understand that they growled at us and we got nasty and took the item and why?

Cool, so now I can assume that all dogs, especially TMs, will ALWAYS learn what I want the first time. Repetition is never necessary and I can punish away if they don't do what I want the 2nd time. Nice training philosophy. I'll have to remember that one. I'm sure it'll make me big bucks selling the concept to some new TV trainer.