I might lose my dog, I don't know what to do next :(

[digbydisaster]

Hiya all,

I was hoping someone might be able to give me some advice regarding my shark mastiff, Kali. She is 9 months old as is her sister Ela, they are Neos. If you have read my other posts, you will know I have have some trouble with them chasing goats, cats and horses, but after lots more training, all is well with Ela, and we can ride the horses out together and she is calm and quiet around the other animals. However, Kali is a different matter and things came to a head today when Kali attacked one of our tiny chihuahuas. Indy was walking past something Kali had found to eat which Kali was a couple of metres away from. She pounced towards Indy, but when she has ever done this before as soon as she has warned off the other dog, she stops. Not this time. Indy screamed and was between Klis legs which thankfully stopped her getting bodily hurt I had Kalis collar and told her no and leave it, nothing worked so had to scream for my partner who managed to get her off. She was yelled and and chained up in her time out spot. I am pretty certain that if we had not intervened it would have been serious or deadly. Two weeks ago Kali attacked our cat who then died later from the injuries. My partner now thinks she is super dangerous to have around and he doesn't want her here anymore with the smaller dogs. I love her to pieces and don't want to give her up (especially as we live in Ecuador, and it will be difficult to find her a home that I trust for her), but I cannot live in the fear that she will kill another of our dogs.

When her prey drive kicks in she is a shark. I don't know how to work on this. We already do NILIF. She is good and obedient during training and the rest of the time really. We are working on the recall and leave it and they are coming along well but not when that drive starts. She is deaf and blind to everything. I have trained both girls the same and Ela is an entirely different dog now. As an example, I have spent hours positive reinforcing them around the horses. If I let the horses into the paddock around the garden, Ela ignores them and Kali still goes mental. I can ride the horses out with Kali by my side and she is as good as gold, but as soon as she is around them and off the lead, she goes mad. I have also had her in the paddock with the horses on, tied up with a prong on, she sits there like a lamb for a couple hours, no problems. As soon as she is in the garden, she goes ballistic at them through the fence. I don't know how to stop this. This is another reason my partner thinks she should go.

There are no trainers here to ask for help. I am working on her obedience. Do you think it is a matter of just the prey drive or does she not think of me as her leader? I am worried sick about the little dogs or having to re-home her, I would be gutted. I have purchased an electric collar as my police dog trainer friend who has been advising me thinks that is the way forward with the horses and goats, but I have read that they shouldn't be used in aggressive cases, i.e. when she gets one of the smaller dogs. What can I do?? I feel like I don't know how to move forwards. I wander if this is part of the teenage phase, so you think it will decrease as she gets older? Or is that just wishful thinking? She is such a loving, affectionate puppy, I don't want to fail her, but she is on her last chance Advice please!

 

[alejandro]

I don't really don't know what to tell you, mostly want to wish you luck, but it sounds to me like she does respect you cause when you are around she is obedient so maybe a little more training will help, but then again she didn't obey when you tell her to let go the chiwey, where you around when she attack her?, maybe more attencion to the sings before she goes berserker can help you stop her while she's still listening.

 

[Bh-k9]

Haven't worked much with neos but have worked with some extreme cases of dog aggression from everything to pit bulls to my own cane corso who I was given because of her dog aggression she now lives nicely with the other dogs and dogs that come over for training.

With the electric collar if that going to be your primary ways of training the leave it. You have to catch the aggression before it even looks like aggression. A stiff posture, a long stare, a sudden stopping and standing still, these are all signs of the beginning of a fight. Correct it ASAP.

The easiest way we trained ex fighting dogs to accept other dogs. (Note I said except not be friends are play mates) is get them around dogs and learn all the signs they give you before they get ready to fight. Once you learn the signs then you stop them at the first stages. Example when she is looking at the horses with one of the early signs of aggression shock her tell her leave it, when she does so reward her. It's a shock leave it then reward system. Positive reinforcement works for some dogs but my experience with high drive dogs they often need a correction followed by a reward once the aggression are dominance has had a chance to mature.

This will not go away with time if not corrected it will manifest into a more extreme case. Punishing after the incident has never worked in my experience you have to catch it before, and during the act and do this constantly daily, for a long time. Some dogs will never be o.k with other dogs, we have been working on a Caucasian shepherd for over six months with minimal results. The average person would think the results are impressive but once you know dog language you will be able to tell if the dog is indeed cured are if it is just waiting for you to go away and let him attack.


So you know she has animal aggression, now find out what triggers that, then find out the signs she shows you before she goes into attack, after that grab the bull by the horns and bring her infront of as many animals as possible and start the rehabilitation process by stopping and redirecting any and every sign of it. We have managed to save many dogs from death row by following these steps but I most tell you that it is never 100% proof and just like humans dogs have bad days and a dog that has not shown any signs of aggression for months even years might and more than likely will try to relapse into his old ways. But knowing what triggers, how it triggers, and why it triggered the dog will help you live with this (animal aggression drive) as I call it. Also keep in mind that one of the signs might be fear, is she nervous looking at the giant horses galloping around her on the other side of the fence, did you cat slap her before unbeynonced to you and out of fear she got rid of the threat. So many things could be going on. Try and figure out the three things and let us all know And we can go from there. Gooooodddd lucccckkk

 

[Bh-k9]

In a large breed 9 months would not in my opinion be a teenage phase unless the bloodlines she comes from mature extremely early.im very interested to see how this materializes. Please find out the following

1. What triggers the aggression (animals to close, animals acting a certain way, time of the day, with you present are not, etc)
2. What signs she shows when she is getting ready to attack (hair standing up, stiffen posture, sudden stop, breathing pattern, type of bark, does she run in circles, side to side, are remain still, etc)
3. When she goes for the attack ( her teeth and mouth shattering, open wide, lip up are down, teeth exposed, type of bark -high pitch, deep bark, screaming? Hair up, down, hacks up, tail where and how is the tail positioned, does she bow down, are stand up on two legs before she attack, does she circle the prey before attack, is she allowing the prey a chance to submit are did the movement get are upset?

 

[musicdeb]

I'm so sorry to read this about one of your pups. You have tried so hard to get this to work. I have no other suggestions or advice, wish I did.

Bh-k9, are you are trainer or behaviorist?

 

[DennasMom]

Bh-k9 - great suggestions and info!

You mention to redirect... if you can correct & leave-it successfully... what you you redirect to? How do you get them to shift OUT of prey drive in to something better, like pack-drive?

Would it help to play with a flirt pole to help expend the prey-drive energy? or would that just reinforce it?

One trainer I follow offers the following MUTT method for all behavior issues:
M - manage the bad behavior (i.e. keep the dog and other animals safe with supervision/containment, etc.)
U - determine the underlying cause (following the suggestions from bh-k9)
T - train, train, train
T - allow for the necessary Time for the training to take hold.

digbydisaster - Hope you find something that works!

 

[digbydisaster]

Hi guys, thanks for the replies especially Bh-k9. I have not used the shock collars up until now. I wanted to watch the Leerburg dvd on the correct use before I started, but I might start letting her wear it every day as I know you should do this for a month before you use it so she does not get collar wise. Not a good time at the moment as just have the family over from the UK for a month! Do you think it is appropriate for teaching the leave it? I use positive re-enforcement, but this is an extremely important thing to try and sort out so I need something that works well and fast (if such a thing exists!!)

With the horses, do you think it is a good idea to have her tied in the paddock with them on her prong then she will "self-correct" if she barks or lunges at them? If I sit with her, or tie her up why I am grooming the horses etc, she doesn't move a muscle in the wrong direction! Generally she goes for the horses if they are too near to the garden fence. She only does it if I am not within sight. If I see her, I tell her "no" and she goes back to whatever she was doing. She runs towards the fence, very fast (running isn't something she does normally!), hair all stuck up like a bog brush then jumps up and down at the fence looking like she is trying to get through the slats and barking really ballistically, much more high pitched than her barking at visitors or whatever. There is also lots of whining. At this point, she has gone past the point of no return so doesn't matter what I say, the only way she will stop is if I block her with my body between the fence and her and then get hold of her collar and lead her away to her time out place where she is chained up for about 15 minutes. I then make her sit, down, etc before I release her. With the chihuahua, it has only happened the once so to be honest I was so busy trying to save the little dog, I wasn't paying attention to what Kali was doing body language wise. I know that Kali had been eating something (not something we gave her as I know she is funny with food so she is fed anything on her own and supervised) and she left this on the grass to come over and see me. Indy also was running over to see me and stopped to sniff the object Kali had been chewing and then Kali did her "pounce" thing. She does this occasionally when she thinks someone is after what she was eating and she just stops after pouncing on her food object and frightening off the other dog. But this time was different, I am pretty sure she wanted to kill that little dog. She looked much more scary and hair all stuck up doing her annoyed bark. The strange thing is we have 7 other dogs than the mastiffs and Indy and Kali get on really well usually. It is the other smaller dogs that Kali sometimes chases and intimidates.

So if I was to use the collar, would I for instance, put the horses in the paddock, and as soon as she gets "that look" and I know she is planning to charge towards them, I give her a nick with the collar? I am worried about the problems the collar can cause with increasing aggression too. But I really feel we are in a serious situation here. If we were in the UK, I would be looking to re-home her even though it kills me to do so, as it does not seem fair to have all the other dogs, goats and horses at risk! Would love to know how to re-direct successfully. My partner is lovely but he has had it with her and I feel totally alone with this situation in a country with no trainers or help nearby!

 

[Bh-k9]

I'm so sorry to read this about one of your pups. You have tried so hard to get this to work. I have no other suggestions or advice, wish I did.

Bh-k9, are you are trainer or behaviorist?

Yes I am, we started with pit bulls, and now we mostly handle working larger breeds. We train for personal protection and sport, but also do a lot of behavior modification and people training lol. Myself and three of my friends. Non profit we don't charge anyone for the help are work, we get paid by knowing we saved someone's best friend from being euthanized.

 

[Bh-k9]

Bh-k9 - great suggestions and info!

You mention to redirect... if you can correct & leave-it successfully... what you you redirect to? How do you get them to shift OUT of prey drive in to something better, like pack-drive?

Would it help to play with a flirt pole to help expend the prey-drive energy? or would that just reinforce it?

One trainer I follow offers the following MUTT method for all behavior issues:
M - manage the bad behavior (i.e. keep the dog and other animals safe with supervision/containment, etc.)
U - determine the underlying cause (following the suggestions from bh-k9)
T - train, train, train
T - allow for the necessary Time for the training to take hold.




Great advise as well- typically we like to redirect into something positive even if they did exactly what we wanted to in order to reinforce the behavior. So if we had a very prey driven dog we would after they did what we wanted reward/redirect the dog into like you said a prey game. (Tug, ball on string, rag, kong, etc)

My experience is that if you show a prey driven dog that you are the outlet to his drive and you will give him something to drain the drive you can "cap" it. For a high drive dog not being able to drain there drive is torture. Once they realized mom knows what I want and at long as I play by her rules ill get it. Then you can use that drive to do some amazing things.

digbydisaster - Hope you find something that works![/QUOTE]

 

[Bh-k9]

Hi guys, thanks for the replies especially Bh-k9. I have not used the shock collars up until now. I wanted to watch the Leerburg dvd on the correct use before I started, but I might start letting her wear it every day as I know you should do this for a month before you use it so she does not get collar wise. Not a good time at the moment as just have the family over from the UK for a month! Do you think it is appropriate for teaching the leave it? I use positive re-enforcement, but this is an extremely important thing to try and sort out so I need something that works well and fast (if such a thing exists!!)

With the horses, do you think it is a good idea to have her tied in the paddock with them on her prong then she will "self-correct" if she barks or lunges at them? If I sit with her, or tie her up why I am grooming the horses etc, she doesn't move a muscle in the wrong direction! Generally she goes for the horses if they are too near to the garden fence. She only does it if I am not within sight. If I see her, I tell her "no" and she goes back to whatever she was doing. She runs towards the fence, very fast (running isn't something she does normally!), hair all stuck up like a bog brush then jumps up and down at the fence looking like she is trying to get through the slats and barking really ballistically, much more high pitched than her barking at visitors or whatever. There is also lots of whining. At this point, she has gone past the point of no return so doesn't matter what I say, the only way she will stop is if I block her with my body between the fence and her and then get hold of her collar and lead her away to her time out place where she is chained up for about 15 minutes. I then make her sit, down, etc before I release her. With the chihuahua, it has only happened the once so to be honest I was so busy trying to save the little dog, I wasn't paying attention to what Kali was doing body language wise. I know that Kali had been eating something (not something we gave her as I know she is funny with food so she is fed anything on her own and supervised) and she left this on the grass to come over and see me. Indy also was running over to see me and stopped to sniff the object Kali had been chewing and then Kali did her "pounce" thing. She does this occasionally when she thinks someone is after what she was eating and she just stops after pouncing on her food object and frightening off the other dog. But this time was different, I am pretty sure she wanted to kill that little dog. She looked much more scary and hair all stuck up doing her annoyed bark. The strange thing is we have 7 other dogs than the mastiffs and Indy and Kali get on really well usually. It is the other smaller dogs that Kali sometimes chases and intimidates.

So if I was to use the collar, would I for instance, put the horses in the paddock, and as soon as she gets "that look" and I know she is planning to charge towards them, I give her a nick with the collar? I am worried about the problems the collar can cause with increasing aggression too. But I really feel we are in a serious situation here. If we were in the UK, I would be looking to re-home her even though it kills me to do so, as it does not seem fair to have all the other dogs, goats and horses at risk! Would love to know how to re-direct successfully. My partner is lovely but he has had it with her and I feel totally alone with this situation in a country with no trainers or help nearby!

You should start immediately, let her wear the collar now and use it now. The problem with collars is they begin to respect the collar and not you. S when it's off they say f*** you, you can't correct me without that thing on my kneck. IMO you will need to keep it on for awhile so that is not a problem right now.

I don't think it's a good idea to have her tied up in the paddock with the prong collar. You are building her drive up by doing this. Drive is built by frustration, she is being frustrated by looking at them and wanting to catch them. We do this in protection work, tease the dog to get them frustrated and build there prey drive.

This is actually a relatively easy fix since she is still young. All this is, is prey drive. Not real aggression YET! So then why would she try and kill the dog if its not aggression? Simplest answer is because it was still moving. The whining, high pitched barking, all tale tale signs of prey.

I would suggest, taking her to the horses on a leash and prong collar with the electric collar. While your walking towards the horses wait for ANY signs of prey kicking in and correct it immediately once she is back in the right state of mind continue walking closer. Just make it to the gate a few times a day for a week. Remember anytime that she is allowed to get in prey drive with the horses you have just took one step in the wrong direction like a potty training accident in the house.try this for a week.

Figure out a job for her around the farm. Maybe herding the horses? Moving items from the barn to paddock? Figure out what you want her to do and we can train her to do that. This will drain some energy. Draining her energy is a must to drain the drive. She needs a physical and mental challenge ASAP.

So this can be your homework

1. Start walking her to horses and correct any and everything that she does that could lead to her prey drive kicking in. ANYTHiNG, she can't walk ahead of you, she can't bark, can't look at the horses for to long, can't have her tail up to high, can't do anything but be relaxed and calm. Small goals for now, don't worry about going in there with them. Don't even make her look at them for to long once you get to the gate. A few seconds and then return back in the house are away from them. Very important you don't expect to much from her are tease her this early in the game.

2. Find out what she likes, does she like to play tug? Does she like treats? Balls, affection? A certain toy? This is very important because we can use this as a reward and away to redirect her instead of always having to knick her are give a snap in the choke chain.

3. Find something you want her to do? If you have horses I'm sure you have some work she can do, what is it, soon she will be o.k with the horses so don't worry about that when deciding her jobs.

4. Stop worrying about her killing horses and small animals, believe in your mind that she is already cured. She's feeling your anxiety and that maybe making a problem bigger then it already is. Tell yourself this is my dog and she is staying here until she grows old.

Baby steps work on those few things in the next few days and let us know how that goes and any problems you occur during the process. Feel better knowing this is just "prey drive" a dog trainers BEST friend once you can control it. BUT we have to fix it now before it grows into aggression and dominance.


The collar used correctly will not increase the aggression, it can and will if done the wrong way but we won't let you do it the wrong way. The key is to knic before she is able to get going. Leave it, followed by a slight knick.

Bowwowflix.com rent the DVDs don't buy them! I just found out about this a few years ago, before them I was buying DVDs 49.00-79.00 a piece.

 

[musicdeb]

Yes I am, we started with pit bulls, and now we mostly handle working larger breeds. We train for personal protection and sport, but also do a lot of behavior modification and people training lol. Myself and three of my friends. Non profit we don't charge anyone for the help are work, we get paid by knowing we saved someone's best friend from being euthanized.

Very cool! Where are you located?

 

[CeeCee]

I love Bh-k9's step #4!

Question: Any advice for her partner? He's said he wants to the re-homed. With that decision, I imagine his energy/state of mind is not helping to move them forward.

 

[Bh-k9]

Very cool! Where are you located?

Oakland, Ca

 

[Bh-k9]

I love Bh-k9's step #4!

Question: Any advice for her partner? He's said he wants to the re-homed. With that decision, I imagine his energy/state of mind is not helping to move them forward.

Lol yes forgot that one, tell hubby to get in the positive state of mind as well. Cee cee is correct, he is hurting the rehabilitation process. Ceases Millan said it best when he said a positive state of mind and positive energy transmits into your dog.

 

[digbydisaster]

I love Bh-k9! Wicked, thanks so much. You clearly do amazing work helping people and for free! What a lovely person You also sound like you know exactly what you are talking about so I am going to do what I am told for my homework. It is brilliant to hear that this is something we can work on and that if we really try, then Kali can stay. She is such a love 99.99% of the time, a real people dog, she loves a tummy tickle and cuddles, she does well in her training and I and totally committed to her. My partner is being pretty good now about the whole thing. I think it was a spur of the moment thing saying he wanted her gone (well his favourite little dog was being attacked so I understand), he agrees now that we are a family and this is where she belongs. So fingers crossed we can manage the situation until we have her training down.

I started putting the e-collar on her today so I guess I should be putting it on and taking it off for a good 3 or 4 weeks before I use it?? I presume that you are from the school of thought that the dog should know the collar corrections are from you? I talked with a trainer who believed that the dogs got on better if the collar correction "came from the sky" and you stayed out of the picture so the dog would still behave when you were not there and also so the dog did not associate you with anything negative. But lots of other things I have read say that the dog should know the correction is from you as all the other corrections are and you are the one that tells the dog what to do. Do you think it is best to use the collar to overlay with her other training or just for correcting her around the horses for example?

I am still trying to work on her "leave it". I use positive reinforcement for that. Do you think there are other methods that would teach it better? It seems to be slow going with the food treats! Everyday it is like she has forgotten the progress from the day before.


I checked out bowwow flicks, how amazing is that! I would love to join but we are in Ecuador so we can't which is a great shame. Is there any dvd in particular you would recommend that I watch?

Thank you all for your help. I am going to have a think about how I can redirect her energy. She does not seem that bothered by tug, her sister loves it, she gets bored in two seconds. Perhaps I could trap one of the giant squirrels we have here and let her chase that round the paddock on a rope?! Joking. I like the sound of the horse herding though, that would save me doing it and if she could enjoy it safely, that would be amazing I also love the sound of step number 4 by the way Feeling much more positive now guys, cheers!

 

[Petcaredays]

You should start immediately, let her wear the collar now and use it now. The problem with collars is they begin to respect the collar and not you. S when it's off they say f*** you, you can't correct me without that thing on my kneck. IMO you will need to keep it on for awhile so that is not a problem right now.

I don't think it's a good idea to have her tied up in the paddock with the prong collar. You are building her drive up by doing this. Drive is built by frustration, she is being frustrated by looking at them and wanting to catch them. We do this in protection work, tease the dog to get them frustrated and build there prey drive.

This is actually a relatively easy fix since she is still young. All this is, is prey drive. Not real aggression YET! So then why would she try and kill the dog if its not aggression? Simplest answer is because it was still moving. The whining, high pitched barking, all tale tale signs of prey.

I would suggest, taking her to the horses on a leash and prong collar with the electric collar. While your walking towards the horses wait for ANY signs of prey kicking in and correct it immediately once she is back in the right state of mind continue walking closer. Just make it to the gate a few times a day for a week. Remember anytime that she is allowed to get in prey drive with the horses you have just took one step in the wrong direction like a potty training accident in the house.try this for a week.

Figure out a job for her around the farm. Maybe herding the horses? Moving items from the barn to paddock? Figure out what you want her to do and we can train her to do that. This will drain some energy. Draining her energy is a must to drain the drive. She needs a physical and mental challenge ASAP.

So this can be your homework

1. Start walking her to horses and correct any and everything that she does that could lead to her prey drive kicking in. ANYTHiNG, she can't walk ahead of you, she can't bark, can't look at the horses for to long, can't have her tail up to high, can't do anything but be relaxed and calm. Small goals for now, don't worry about going in there with them. Don't even make her look at them for to long once you get to the gate. A few seconds and then return back in the house are away from them. Very important you don't expect to much from her are tease her this early in the game.

2. Find out what she likes, does she like to play tug? Does she like treats? Balls, affection? A certain toy? This is very important because we can use this as a reward and away to redirect her instead of always having to knick her are give a snap in the choke chain.

3. Find something you want her to do? If you have horses I'm sure you have some work she can do, what is it, soon she will be o.k with the horses so don't worry about that when deciding her jobs.

4. Stop worrying about her killing horses and small animals, believe in your mind that she is already cured. She's feeling your anxiety and that maybe making a problem bigger then it already is. Tell yourself this is my dog and she is staying here until she grows old.

Baby steps work on those few things in the next few days and let us know how that goes and any problems you occur during the process. Feel better knowing this is just "prey drive" a dog trainers BEST friend once you can control it. BUT we have to fix it now before it grows into aggression and dominance.


The collar used correctly will not increase the aggression, it can and will if done the wrong way but we won't let you do it the wrong way. The key is to knic before she is able to get going. Leave it, followed by a slight knick.

Bowwowflix.com rent the DVDs don't buy them! I just found out about this a few years ago, before them I was buying DVDs 49.00-79.00 a piece.

Wow, I've been looking for a solution for our Pyreneese. He goes nuts (they are barkers anyway) at the fence when the cottagers show up in the summer. Now he's teaching our new mastiff the same rituals. I'm glad they are doing their jobs as we also have bears and coyotes around but would like them to listen to me when I tell them 'ENOUGH' !! Our Pyreneese is almost 4 and our new pup is 8 months. Our Rotti girl does it too but she is older and much better at listening. I also read that shock collars should not be used on aggressive/high strung dogs but now after reading your great advice maybe I should re-consider. Do you think it would work on the 4 year old, and is it ok for use on the pup? Tks!

 

[digbydisaster]

Righty, we have had three good days in a row. Kali wears her electric collar for a period of time every day, so another couple of weeks to go with that before we use it.

I suddenly had a brain wave (this is rare! haha) and decided to let just one horse into the paddock at a time. This means the horses are not trotting about or fighting or making so much noise. I then take Kali on her prong into the paddock and walk around and around till she truely looks bored. I then walk her around the garden in the same manner. Then I let her off the lead but with her prong still on with a short lead on it in case I need to grab her. Then I just stay near to her. Touch wood, all the past three days she has been perfect! No running, barking or going mad . Very happy, so figured will just keep doing this for a while and then maybe introduce a second horse into the paddock.

I think she is scared. When we walk near the horses, she sometimes pulls to get away and has her tail low, she looks scared.

Doe this mean then that I am dealing with three different problems with the goats, horses and small dogs? As she is clearly scared of the horses, wants to eat the goats and definatley is not scared of them and as for the little dogs, I am not sure? Is the electric collar suitable to train her for all three problems?

Am trying to persuade her that tug is fun, she is not so convinced ,although her sister will pull me off the couch with joy to play it. Also think might try to make a flirt pole with a cat shaped toy on it!?

 

[Bh-k9]

Good job, good progress! Congrats... I haven't looked at the thread in a few days sorry, ill respond tomorrow

 

[digbydisaster]

So today the horses broke through the fence. All five were in the paddock, and after 10 minutes walking around them with Kali on the prong, I let her free in the garden. All was good for 4 hours! I was totally surprised, she was perfectly well behaved. Very happy! Not planning on that number of horses normally being in the paddock, so was proud of her that she coped, in fact, she was more busy looking a the chicken coop (smells very exciting and you can see through the slats!). Today marks two weeks wearing the e-collar so almost ready to use it.

 

[musicdeb]

Great progress report! WTG Kali and mom!