Is it ever okay to growl?

[angelbears]

Your dog will respect and cherish your son because of your leadership. You will set the tone. Even the most wonderful 5 year old is going to have their moments. They are both still learning what is right and what is wrong. Do you allow your 5 year old to discipline your toddler?

I highly agree children should help with the pup but never be put in the position to discipline.

I'm not trying to be a bitch, honest. I just see where a child could get bit and an innocent dog be put down.

 

[HecatesKeeper]

Your dog will respect and cherish your son because of your leadership. You will set the tone. Even the most wonderful 5 year old is going to have their moments. They are both still learning what is right and what is wrong. Do you allow your 5 year old to discipline your toddler?

I highly agree children should help with the pup but never be put in the position to discipline.

I'm not trying to be a bitch, honest. I just see where a child could get bit and an innocent dog be put down.

I really enjoy your analogy and I have taken it to heart.

If my toddler was getting under the sink into the cleaning supplies I would absolutely expect my older son to immediately respond and take it from him, if he were the closest to him. I see this as teaching responsibility. However, you're correct that I would not let him put his brother in a time out.

So perhaps I am hazy on everyone's definition of "discipline" I won't allow him to put puppy in a "time out" but if I can train her to let US take things out of her mouth, why is it dangerous, to allow my son to help with that part of the training? Can someone please explain this to me?

Again, I'm. Not trying to argue. I obviously want what's best for both my puppy and my son. I am just trying to understand.

 

[thelady_v2010]

If it were me (keep in mind I have no small children), I would get the dog used to ME taking stuff from him and then slowly incorporate the children in the training. Most likely I would have the kids trade up, not straight take things from him. That increases resource guarding. He will see your kid as the "thing" that takes stuff from him.

Work on a solid drop it command and a solid leave it command as well. Those will help as the dog gets bigger. There is nothing that my dog won't drop for me now. But, I don't make it a punishment. If he isn't supposed to have it, I tell him to drop it and then give him something better, that he is allowed to have.

 

[fila4me]

Isn't that the reason we establish his leadership while she is young and small??


Edit: I'm not trying to argue, I am truly trying to understand. If she isn't used to him leading her, then how can I trust her when she IS 100 lbs?

I have a 53lb 3 1/2yro son(he is a beast) and I established him as the one who feeds, waters and lets the dogs out. no discipline from him, I do let him help me when training. he takes them thru their paces and gives them a treat if they listen. but, in no way ready to make the decisions on discipline, my 9yro daughter is not ready either, only because she is not as into the dogs. my reasoning behind why I do not, is I do not want him to try to discipline them when I am in the shower, in the other room etc. Flower usually follows me, but Maddie will hang back with my son sometimes. she is over 100lbs now at 11 mos and still puppy, the bond between her and my son is amazing! when she wants to go out or eat she will go nudge my son. she will sit in front of him for him to put her collar and leash on her. she actually listens to him better than she does me! she sees him as a caregiver, which is how I want it. both dogs see him as a leader.

 

[HecatesKeeper]

If it were me (keep in mind I have no small children), I would get the dog used to ME taking stuff from him and then slowly incorporate the children in the training. Most likely I would have the kids trade up, not straight take things from him. That increases resource guarding. He will see your kid as the "thing" that takes stuff from him.

Work on a solid drop it command and a solid leave it command as well. Those will help as the dog gets bigger. There is nothing that my dog won't drop for me now. But, I don't make it a punishment. If he isn't supposed to have it, I tell him to drop it and then give him something better, that he is allowed to have.

We are working on "out" ( our trainers choice for essentially "no mouth") and she is actually getting much better! Honestly, she is training really fast for only being with us for 2 weeks.

I really like this "trade up" philosophy, especially if I decide to continue letting my son remove things she isn't supposed to have. Thanks to everyone who suggested this idea.

 

[HecatesKeeper]

I have a 53lb 3 1/2yro son(he is a beast) and I established him as the one who feeds, waters and lets the dogs out. no discipline from him, I do let him help me when training. he takes them thru their paces and gives them a treat if they listen. but, in no way ready to make the decisions on discipline, my 9yro daughter is not ready either, only because she is not as into the dogs. my reasoning behind why I do not, is I do not want him to try to discipline them when I am in the shower, in the other room etc. Flower usually follows me, but Maddie will hang back with my son sometimes. she is over 100lbs now at 11 mos and still puppy, the bond between her and my son is amazing! when she wants to go out or eat she will go nudge my son. she will sit in front of him for him to put her collar and leash on her. she actually listens to him better than she does me! she sees him as a caregiver, which is how I want it. both dogs see him as a leader.

Our sons sound a LOT alike stature wise. At 4 he was about the same size. At 5 he was 60lbs, and TALL not just wide. Thanks for sharing what works for your family! Right now, DH and I have done most of the feeding. I will address that with DS and DH this evening and see the best way to altar the current dynamic.

 

[ruthcatrin]

DO NOT ALLOW YOUR CHILDREN TO HUG THE DOG DAMMIT!!! ESPECIALLY when doing results in a position where the child is holding down the dog! Theres a REASON why the most common dog bites on children is to the face! Thats a VERY aggressive sort of move!

 

[HecatesKeeper]

DO NOT ALLOW YOUR CHILDREN TO HUG THE DOG DAMMIT!!! ESPECIALLY when doing results in a position where the child is holding down the dog! Theres a REASON why the most common dog bites on children is to the face! Thats a VERY aggressive sort of move!

Woah there! No reason to attack anyone. I've already clarified this isn't something we allow. But that for making me feel like an idiot. I really appricate it.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I missed where you said you didn't allow it sorry, I'm reading on my pohone today. We recently had a member loose a dog because her daughter hugged the dog (again) and the dog bit her......

 

[ruthcatrin]

Once I'm on a real keyboard again I'll have more to add to the thread, but hugging dogs is a peeve of mine.....

 

[HecatesKeeper]

We recently had a member loose a dog because her daughter hugged the dog (again) and the dog bit her......

Maybe you should lead with this next time, it's nice, personable and doesn't put a reader on the defense. Bonus that you wouldn't have come off a such a jerk.

 

[ruthcatrin]

That other member is proof positive that polite frequently doesnt get the point accross. If being a jerk keeps another kid from getting bitten I'll take it.....

 

[thelady_v2010]

That other member is proof positive that polite frequently doesnt get the point accross. If being a jerk keeps another kid from getting bitten I'll take it.....

Whoa, I missed this. PM me?

 

[taraann81]

There is a excellent and very knowedgeable Rottweiler breeder, Redyre Rottweilers. I frequented another forum that she was on. She , and Im sure many will disagree. Says you should never take something from a dog with out trading up. By taking something from a dog, you are teaching it it may need to gaurd its posseasions because we may take something at anytime. Our foal, whe. Removing things from our dogs is to never have them, try to eat faster, lower their heads or have any other avoidance behaviour when we reach for an object. And the beat way of doing rhis is by offering something better....in this way, when the time occura, whwn you drop your cooked chicken breast, with bone in and reach for it...the dog drops it without feeling the need to "gaurd" it as sometging even better must be coming....she said it more eloquently...but the way she deacribed it made me change my ways of always messing with a dogs toys/treats/bone in order to make them "used" to it..... Pardon the typos, I am on my phone and it makes correcting typos very tiresome.

 

[taraann81]

I tracked down and stole a few the things she posted "

I work hard never to put the puppy in a position of wanting to guard something. If I want something, I offer a treat or toy in exchange. I take every opportunity to offer a puppy a trade up. I don't reach or grab for articles they bring back to me. I am very careful not to put the puppy in a position of even wanting to duck his head when he is coming to me with something, or has something in his possession. Instead I teach the puppy very carefully that every time my hand is coming toward him, it is to deliver something good. Something he would be wise to be interested in, no matter what he has. Puppies raised this way have zero anxiety about their things, with ANYONE. They are completely desensitized about being possessive over things. In addition to doing this, I regularly supply treats or hand feed and handful or two of the dinner from time to time bef Violence begets violence with dogs.I do not advocate intimidating and physically correcting a dog over any resource guarding or food aggression. IN PARTICULAR if your goal is to eliminate the dog's anxiety over his resources and eliminate any urge to guard it.IMO physically correcting and intimidating a dog over his food is counterproductive. It is damaging to the trust relationship, and it gives the dog a REASON to guard his resources. What the dog fears is the loss of his resources. IMO it is counterproductive to step up and make that come true for the animal.I probably should say that I currently live in a 6 Rottweiler household, including 4 intact b.itches and 1 intact male and 1 spayed female. I have bred, trained, and exhibited horses or dogs since I was about 10 years old. This is my 22nd year in Rottweilers. I don't live with a pushover breed of dog. There is no need to use intimidation and physical attacks such as scruffing. ore I SHUT THE CRATE DOOR and leave the dog to eat in peace."

Amd this one which was reffering to someone who suggeated scruffing a dog that shows resouce gaurding

" Violence begets violence with dogs.I do not advocate intimidating and physically correcting a dog over any resource guarding or food aggression. IN PARTICULAR if your goal is to eliminate the dog's anxiety over his resources and eliminate any urge to guard it.IMO physically correcting and intimidating a dog over his food is counterproductive. It is damaging to the trust relationship, and it gives the dog a REASON to guard his resources. What the dog fears is the loss of his resources. IMO it is counterproductive to step up and make that come true for the animal.I probably should say that I currently live in a 6 Rottweiler household, including 4 intact b.itches and 1 intact male and 1 spayed female. I have bred, trained, and exhibited horses or dogs since I was about 10 years old. This is my 22nd year in Rottweilers. I don't live with a pushover breed of dog. There is no need to use intimidation and physical attacks such as scruffing.

 

[Cody]

I have a 53lb 3 1/2yro son(he is a beast) and I established him as the one who feeds, waters and lets the dogs out. no discipline from him, I do let him help me when training. he takes them thru their paces and gives them a treat if they listen. but, in no way ready to make the decisions on discipline, my 9yro daughter is not ready either, only because she is not as into the dogs. my reasoning behind why I do not, is I do not want him to try to discipline them when I am in the shower, in the other room etc. Flower usually follows me, but Maddie will hang back with my son sometimes. she is over 100lbs now at 11 mos and still puppy, the bond between her and my son is amazing! when she wants to go out or eat she will go nudge my son. she will sit in front of him for him to put her collar and leash on her. she actually listens to him better than she does me! she sees him as a caregiver, which is how I want it. both dogs see him as a leader.

We do/have done the same with our son, starting when he was 3 with our first CC. He has been responsible for the feeding, letting the dogs out BUT never discipline or corrections. He is not large, 50lbs exactly at 8 years old but he walks our 90lb female with no issues ever. She responds to him and respects him, same with our almost 140lb male. He also practices stacking and gaiting them, and more recently will come practice agility and BJ will do runs with him. Is he allowed to take anything away from them? Absolutely not? Is he allowed to correct them? Nope. They still respect him and respond to his commands and are very well aware of everyone places in our pack. He is a child and children are not always consistent. Please do NOT let your child take things away from the dog. If your dog decides to challenge them, no matter how close you are, it is a lose lose situation. Especially at this point if your dog is already growling at the child and at you. It is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Cody]

Maybe you should lead with this next time, it's nice, personable and doesn't put a reader on the defense. Bonus that you wouldn't have come off a such a jerk.

I do not think that Ruth was being a jerk, as much as responding to what you wrote "this morning the baby was giving her a big hug and sort of had her pinned down" That quote on this forum will definitely cause some members to get their backs up. These are breeds we love and when we read these comments we know what is going to be coming next. people think it is cute when their young children poke, hug, cling on and generally harass these breeds. Not saying that you are one of these people, but to be honest the whole allowing your 5 year old to correct your 4 month puppy has got me very concerned, I am sure a few others here as well. We all want to see success but at the same time we do not want to see yet another mastiff on the news for an incident that could have easily been avoided.

 

[fila4me]

We do/have done the same with our son, starting when he was 3 with our first CC. He has been responsible for the feeding, letting the dogs out BUT never discipline or corrections. He is not large, 50lbs exactly at 8 years old but he walks our 90lb female with no issues ever. She responds to him and respects him, same with our almost 140lb male. He also practices stacking and gaiting them, and more recently will come practice agility and BJ will do runs with him. Is he allowed to take anything away from them? Absolutely not? Is he allowed to correct them? Nope. They still respect him and respond to his commands and are very well aware of everyone places in our pack. He is a child and children are not always consistent. Please do NOT let your child take things away from the dog. If your dog decides to challenge them, no matter how close you are, it is a lose lose situation. Especially at this point if your dog is already growling at the child and at you. It is a recipe for disaster.

exactly!!! I can't wait for Anderson to get bigger and be able to be even more involved. right now, if the girls get something they are not supposed to have Anderson knows to come and get an adult to get it away from them! he will come running, yelling the whole time "Maddie girl is in trouble now", hahaha. all it would take is one wrong move and I am so not willing to take that chance with my babies! I don't why this is so hard for some to grasp!

 

[HecatesKeeper]

taraann81- thank you for that valuable information. It makes a lot of sense. I will be discussing this with my DH tomorrow to make sure the family is on the same page.

Cody- I don't know where you live, but yelling, and cursing at a complete stranger, who is seeking advice so they can do better is hardly considered polite. If that is considered normal etiquette on this site, I might have to find my information elsewhere, which would be a shame because everyone here really does seem quite knowledgeable.
I have already admitted I don't know anything about puppies, which is why I joined this forum in the first place. As they say, when you know better, you do better! However, I do ask questions because I am more interested in the "why" not just the "how to" you'll find me very receptive to new information, and new techniques, so it really isn't necessary to curse and yell for me to get the point.

You all will be happy to hear that I discussed the subject with my DH, and we will heed your advice and not be letting DS issue anymore corrections, and also get him more involved in the more positive aspects of puppy rearing.

For clarification, is it safe to allow him to participate in his obedience classes, obviously adult supervised?

 

[Smart_Family]

Yes, your son should absolutely be involved in his obedience classes and in his obedience training in the home.