new study on spaying early????

[Smart_Family]

Sometimes you can tell by swelling but not always. Every dog has different signs. They might eat less or eat more. They might become super clingy. Every dog is different.

 

[raechiemay]

With my pup she was eating like a horse. She was constantly hungry. Now that's tapered off a bit & she's eating more normally. At first when I posted about her going into heat I hadn't noticed any behavior changes but now she is stuck up my butt, I'll turn around & almost trip over her & sometimes she will walk into the room I'm in & just stand there staring at me. If I stare back at her she kind of growls under her breath. It's not aggressive whatsoever, seems more playful than anything. She also doesn't seem to be very interested in playing. Not even with her favorite toys.

 

[Geisthexe]

Many Vets will tell you about cancer in your dogs. But you have to pick which of the two evils you want.
Here is the reasons for keeping the hormones in the body while in the growth stage:
- [FONT=Lucida Grande, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Short [/FONT][FONT=Lucida Grande, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Stature[/FONT][FONT=Lucida Grande, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]: significantly below the average height for a dog of the same breed, age and sex. This problem may happen if the dog does not produce enough growth hormone or has been sterilized.
- Bone Deficiency: Bone loss, Bone cells are at a slower rate of growth, bone marrow at a slower rate of replacement. Possible hip / elbow dysplasia,
- Weight: body can not regulate the weight in the body so this causes the body to put on weight easier.
Here is the dangers of keeping hormones after growth
- Cancer: all types.
The one problem with Cancer is you do not know if the dog will ever get it. Just like in use they state it is mostly hereditary. Since we do not keep record of cancer in the history of the dogs like we do humans we can never know.
Just some info to think about! [/FONT]

 

[raechiemay]

So in my case, with my EM female she is already below the "norm" in height & weight for her age & breed. She's about 26 inches tall & has not really gained very much weight in the past month or so. I would say she is probably right around 85 lbs & will be 10 months old on Monday. My first EM was 85 lbs at 6 months when she was spayed & was even full grown significantly larger than Duchess is. I knew D was going to be small but had no idea she was going to be this small. She's really not that much bigger than my parents dogs (mutts).

 

[Tailcreek]

Many Vets will tell you about cancer in your dogs. But you have to pick which of the two evils you want.
Here is the reasons for keeping the hormones in the body while in the growth stage:
- Short Stature: significantly below the average height for a dog of the same breed, age and sex. This problem may happen if the dog does not produce enough growth hormone or has been sterilized.

Actually studies have shown that dogs spayed/neutered at an early age grow taller than those left intact until after puberty. The hormones that are produced by the reproductive organs play a role in signalling the body to close the growth plates. When the reproductive organs are removed at an early age the growth plates remain open for a longer period of time resulting in taller animals, amoung other consequesnces...

I have an article being published in February on this very subject - risks associated with spaying/neutering. I will post a link to the article on the forum when it has been published.

Jennifer
www.thenaturalcarnivore.com
www.tailcreekmastiffs.com

 

[Geisthexe]

Actually studies have shown that dogs spayed/neutered at an early age grow taller than those left intact until after puberty. The hormones that are produced by the reproductive organs play a role in signalling the body to close the growth plates. When the reproductive organs are removed at an early age the growth plates remain open for a longer period of time resulting in taller animals, amoung other consequesnces...

I have an article being published in February on this very subject - risks associated with spaying/neutering. I will post a link to the article on the forum when it has been published.

Jennifer
www.thenaturalcarnivore.com
www.tailcreekmastiffs.com

This is your article? You have VETS that are stating this? Is your study going to Michigan University? As they are the larges College to do Studies?
Just curious b/c so many articles out there that state something and they have been disproved. Since even in humans our hormones play a BIG part on our growth.
WE are the ONLY ones that decide that dogs and cats need to be sterilized due to over population but yet we do not do it to other animals like deer, rabbits etc. we fill the public with information that is not correct to be able to get something done .. I look forward to reading YOUR article

 

[Jerms]

Definately gonna wait till at least 18 months. Thanks for the info guys. Betty thanks you too.

 

[ruthcatrin]

This is your article? You have VETS that are stating this? Is your study going to Michigan University? As they are the larges College to do Studies?
Just curious b/c so many articles out there that state something and they have been disproved. Since even in humans our hormones play a BIG part on our growth.
WE are the ONLY ones that decide that dogs and cats need to be sterilized due to over population but yet we do not do it to other animals like deer, rabbits etc. we fill the public with information that is not correct to be able to get something done .. I look forward to reading YOUR article

The "sexual" hormones are required to tell the growth plates to close properly. If you remove the hormones before the growth plates close they don't close properly, often later than they should, or close incompletely, resulting in long spindly bones, and bones that are out of proportion to the rest of the body. Thats been confirmed in a variety of animals including humans actually. Sometimes this results in a smaller animal who doesn't fill out properly, other times a taller animal with long spindly bones, and others a rather out of proportion animal, all depending on when the spay/neuter took place in relation to where in the animal's growth.

 

[Geisthexe]

all depending on when the spay/neuter took place in relation to where in the animal's growth.

The key you just stated: "all depending on when the spay/neuter took place in relation to where in the animal's growth" That's the point I have been making so once again you should wait till the dog/cat/ etc is at a certain age before removing.

Humans "hmm" I would love to see the article, b/c they put women alone on synthetic hormones after they get a ovarian hysto. They put them on them b/c they state we need them for Osteoporosis, weight gain, etc. So I wonder why we put ourselves on hormones after we remove the actual ones from out bodies?

 

[Smart_Family]

Definately gonna wait till at least 18 months. Thanks for the info guys. Betty thanks you too.

Glad to hear it!

 

[Geisthexe]

nobody's arguing with that part. You took offense at Tailcreek's statement that contradicted yours and I stated why I agreed with Tailcreek. What is wrong with you this morning, you're not usually this snide.

Im not being snide at all... I think the way I write sometimes bugs people. So I apologize if taken that way. I am very curious to read her article, my only problem with it, was the study of her article proven was all I was asking and stating, and yours just confirmed what I stated of why animals need to wait. We spay / neuter animals now at 8 weeks of age. That's completely crazy! Those poor babies don't have a chance in hell to get what there bodies need.

The other reason I am so curious about her article is b/c my last Presa Litter I had a lady neuter a male at 6 months of age. That dog should be at least a 100 lbs like his siblings and he is ONLY 82 lbs not to mention he is 22" tall. The litter is all 25" ^ and over 100 lbs on all the males, the females are 24" tall and 90+ lbs. This is only one example but I can find so many more in so many giant breeds.

So again sorry for my writing sounding harsh .. still love ya Ruth

 

[raechiemay]

I can see why some people like rescues & shelters spay/neuter early to decrease the chances of their adopters forgetting & having more oops puppies in the world. Do I agree with it? No not really but if it will prevent more unwanted litters then why not. If you do know better then some rescues will work with you & allow you to pay a deposit in which will be refunded at the time the spay/neuter is completed. Which they for the most part will not allow you to go past the 6 month mark. What I am wondering is why I have a female that is not altered & is still smaller than a normal EM female pup. Genetics & bad breeding I'm sure play into this as far as she's concerned.

 

[ruthcatrin]

The other reason I am so curious about her article is b/c my last Presa Litter I had a lady neuter a male at 6 months of age. That dog should be at least a 100 lbs like his siblings and he is ONLY 82 lbs not to mention he is 22" tall. The litter is all 25" ^ and over 100 lbs on all the males, the females are 24" tall and 90+ lbs. This is only one example but I can find so many more in so many giant breeds.

Because testosterone is also required to jump start some of the growth. Which is why it varies so much. Each dog is different, when the various hormones hit is different. But a dog who's had some of that big burst of testosterone, and then doesn't get the rest of the hormones to shut off the growth plates, ends up with long spindly bones. I'm still trying to find the studies I read earlier. I actually posted a couple on here at one point but of course now I can't find the thread.

 

[voidecho]

Here is the dangers of keeping hormones after growth
- Cancer: all types.
The one problem with Cancer is you do not know if the dog will ever get it. Just like in use they state it is mostly hereditary. Since we do not keep record of cancer in the history of the dogs like we do humans we can never know.
Just some info to think about!

I thought early neutering or spaying actually increased the risk of some cancers, especially osteosarcoma (bone) and prostate cancers?

I know this is only one source, but this is the one I remember reading which really pushed me over to the better to wait on neutering side of the debate.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Edited to add: I just noticed you said dangers of keeping hormones "AFTER GROWTH". Missed that qualifying statement. Sounds like keeping the hormones until growth is done is good, but then removing them after growth is done could be good too.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I thought early neutering or spaying actually increased the risk of some cancers, especially osteosarcoma (bone) and prostate cancers?

I know this is only one source, but this is the one I remember reading which really pushed me over to the better to wait on neutering side of the debate.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Edited to add: I just noticed you said dangers of keeping hormones "AFTER GROWTH". Missed that qualifying statement. Sounds like keeping the hormones until growth is done is good, but then removing them after growth is done could be good too.

I don't know what Geisthexe is using for references, but based on what I can find it depends on which cancer and the gender of the dog. For example a female dog does have increased risk of breast cancer by leaving her intact after the age of about 2 (its not an especially HUGE risk, but the figure does go up after that point). The older the intact male the higher his risk of testicular cancer, its still a really small risk.

---------- Post added at 02:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------

For example, prostate cancer (another one vets will tell you about): http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1476-5829.2003.00007.x/abstract and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12431819 both studies showed an increase in prostate cancer progression in neutered dogs.

 

[ruthcatrin]

For example, prostate cancer (another one vets will tell you about): http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1476-5829.2003.00007.x/abstract and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12431819 both studies showed an increase in prostate cancer progression in neutered dogs.

Osteosarcoma: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

A twofold excess risk was observed among neutered dogs

And so on....so honestly it depends on which cancer you're talking about.

 

[Crystalanya]

There are actually quite a few studies on this. I'm happy to give a reference list. The problem is that you have to have access to academic journals in order to read them. A good vet stays up-to-date with the literature. Here is the problem both ways. Research done on animals for the benefit of animals (this is opposed to early clinical stage animal testing) is small. Simply because it's difficult to secure funding. Ns are always small because of funding and availability. Secondly, you have to have a fairly strong basic understanding of research methods and statistics to be able to interpret them. Both sides of this argument tend to upset me because both sides are generally using anecdotal evidence or a lack of scientific evidence. Or they are using non-peer reviewed articles as their basis. The Sanborn article is a literature review. Nothing more. Though factual, the way she presents the evidence is a bit misleading (for example five times greater a chance isn't that statistically significant if a particular side effect happened in less than 1 per cent of the study subjects). I can give you my own anecdotal evidence, but it's just anecdotal. Both the animal science program where I did my PhD work and the veterinary school were of the same opinion that there was little reason not to neuter (which technically neutering refers to both removal of testicles and ovaries) young. However, if you dog isn't goign to be around a lot of neutered dogs, behaviourally there is probably no reason to neuter him either. A lot of people are poorly informed about oestrus and they will bring their unaltered females to a dog park when they are beginning their oestrus cycle. And neutered males often times have problems with in tact males, which can lead to behavioural conflicts.

 

[Geisthexe]

I don't know what Geisthexe is using for references, but based on what I can find it depends on which cancer and the gender of the dog. For example a female dog does have increased risk of breast cancer by leaving her intact after the age of about 2 (its not an especially HUGE risk, but the figure does go up after that point). The older the intact male the higher his risk of testicular cancer, its still a really small risk.

---------- Post added at 02:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ----------

For example, prostate cancer (another one vets will tell you about): http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1476-5829.2003.00007.x/abstract and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12431819 both studies showed an increase in prostate cancer progression in neutered dogs.

Ruth I am not telling folks not to sterilize bc you do have that chance of cancer in both sexes. I am stating in puppies it should not be done.... PERIOD!!!!

 

[ruthcatrin]

For general reference-a clickable set of the references from the Sanborn article: http://www.newcastleboxers.com/snlinks.shtml (note, not all studies are publicly availible or even availible online).

I will also note that the American College of Theriogenology also lists a very similer set of pluses and minuses to spay/neuter.

 

[Crystalanya]

I can't be entirely certain, but she might have been referring to this study:
An overview of pediatric spay and neuter benefits and techniques by Philip Bushby, published in the Feb 2011 issues of Veterinary Medicine. Most vets subscribe to that journal. This isn't a study, this is a lit review, but there is a bibliography at the end and this is publicly available (I believe) here: http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/issue/issueDetail.jsp?id=19883.

An interesting study was done not using clinical data but surveyed vets practises and beliefs around spaying and neutering:
When to neuter dogs and cats: A survey of New York State veterinarians' practises and beliefs by Spain, Scarlett and Cully published in the Journal of American Animal Hospital Association in Oct 2002. I would be interesting to re-do this survey now and see if attitudes have changed over the past decade.