Playing?

[tynman]

Regarding the "I'm the boss, not him", the idea is very relative. During the day, my pup stays at my parent's house. My father has the same mentality as you, I'm the boss, do as I say or else. My mother, on the other hand, is completely different, treats him like a baby and spoils him to no end. Who do you think he listens better too? Well, the answer is my mother. He responds better to commands, is more gentle with her and acts overal better around her. Their relation is based on mutual love and respect, not on fear of the consequences.

I dont mean listen to me or else. But he has to know who the leader is. Take my wife she isnt a firm with him and will tell him 2 or 3 times to do something before he even attempts to do what she asked of him. Now me I only ask once an usually he will listen, But if he is over excited his ears stop working for a second or 2 which is ok cause I wont even look at him until he calms down and sits. Now with treats he will listen to any 6 of us (me, wife or my 4 kids) but with out treats my kids have a very hard time to get him to listen to them so Im trying to get the kids to work with him more and become dominant and higher in the food chain then him. Considering he weights more then any of my 4 kids at this time...lol And me and Tank have a buddy buddy relationship just the way I want it.

 

[tynman]

It might be me, but I've not seen much balance in the post I quoted.
How would you define being firm?
Most pups snap at people around 13 weeks, it's a form of testing the limits, like a toddler stomping his foot. It's not a battle for dominance, so pinning him to the ground is pretty pointless.

I dont know about you but my kids when they were that small weren't allowed to stomp there feet at me either so biting or nipping from a puppy will only be excepted for the first week he starts it. Until I teach him that that isnt not allowed. So any nipping after he is taught that then YES Im the BOSS.

 

[Iulicris88]

I dont know about you but my kids when they were that small weren't allowed to stomp there feet at me either so biting or nipping from a puppy will only be excepted for the first week he starts it. Until I teach him that that isnt not allowed. So any nipping after he is taught that then YES Im the BOSS.

Read your first post in the the thread. You say you pin your dog to stop him from nipping. I don't see where exactly you say you first teach him it's not ok, and then pin him down.
I will say though, if your pup is still nipping after you taught him it is not allowed, the way you do it is aparently not that effective. I have a rescue dog, with a history of abuse, that responds to commands as if his life depends on it. Because at some point, it probably did. So, scaring a dog into submission might be effective, to a certain extent, but it's not my cup of tea. Not that I'm saying you are abusing your dog, or anything, just that I have a different view on raising a dog.
By the way, did you also pin you kids down when they were having a temper tantrum?

 

[Lisa Drew]

I think we have to remember, our dogs are gonna be BIG when they finish growing and it is wise to stop this kind of behavior when it starts. I remember when Garm was just 4 months old and we had an incidence. He was not allowed on the sofa because we knew he was gonna be huge and we didn't want to start something when he was small. One day, he jumped up on the sofa and when my husband went to put him down, he growled and snapped at him. My husband immediately removed him from the couch and put him on the floor on his back. He was gentle, but firm. It is something that has to be done. You have to be the pack leader, especially with a dog who outweighs you and is stronger than you. I think it all comes down to reading your puppy and knowing the difference between a dominance battle and just play.

 

[Boxergirl]

Please read the links on dominance. Please. It's not what so many people think it is. All of this pinning, not letting dogs sit higher than humans. It's old school training and I think much of it has the potential to become dangerous (see link #1 posted earlier).

The whole "pack" leader thing is an outdated concept, if it's used in terms of being "alpha", etc. Now if you mean be a leader, absolutely. Set the rules and stick by them. Leadership is a great thing. If you don't want your dog to get on the couch when he's 100lbs, don't let him on when he's 10lbs. Clear rules and consistency. Dogs don't try to dominate us. They just do what works. Almost all of the issues I see labeled as dogs being dominant is simply a dog that hasn't been taught any impulse control, doesn't know the rules, and is rude. Especially when we're talking about a puppy. There is absolutely no need for any physical punishment at this age. All that does is create fear. There are many better ways to teach than through fear.

 

[Iulicris88]

I think we have to remember, our dogs are gonna be BIG when they finish growing and it is wise to stop this kind of behavior when it starts. I remember when Garm was just 4 months old and we had an incidence. He was not allowed on the sofa because we knew he was gonna be huge and we didn't want to start something when he was small. One day, he jumped up on the sofa and when my husband went to put him down, he growled and snapped at him. My husband immediately removed him from the couch and put him on the floor on his back. He was gentle, but firm. It is something that has to be done. You have to be the pack leader, especially with a dog who outweighs you and is stronger than you. I think it all comes down to reading your puppy and knowing the difference between a dominance battle and just play.

A 4 months puppy does not try to dominate you, he's testing the limits. What your husband did has no real educational value, he just used his superior strength to cower someone weaker than him. Like slapping your kid for talking back. But, hey, to each his own.

 

[Elana P]

With all do respect, when you pin someone down you try to assert your dominance. Plain and clear. The problem is, a young puppy does not try to dominate you, he acts the way he does because he doesn't know any better. I don't think this method is educational, you just scare them into submission. There are other way to corect a pup when he gets into a super exited state.
The post I was referring to not being balanced was the one you quoted, not yours.

 

[tynman]

Read your first post in the the thread. You say you pin your dog to stop him from nipping. I don't see where exactly you say you first teach him it's not ok, and then pin him down.
I will say though, if your pup is still nipping after you taught him it is not allowed, the way you do it is aparently not that effective. I have a rescue dog, with a history of abuse, that responds to commands as if his life depends on it. Because at some point, it probably did. So, scaring a dog into submission might be effective, to a certain extent, but it's not my cup of tea. Not that I'm saying you are abusing your dog, or anything, just that I have a different view on raising a dog.
By the way, did you also pin you kids down when they were having a temper tantrum?

You pin him down on his back to show dominants when they are small to teach them. I have gotten that from many different trainers. And it works.
And with the kids no I would just walk away until they figured out that temper tantrum wont work.

 

[tynman]

I think we have to remember, our dogs are gonna be BIG when they finish growing and it is wise to stop this kind of behavior when it starts. I remember when Garm was just 4 months old and we had an incidence. He was not allowed on the sofa because we knew he was gonna be huge and we didn't want to start something when he was small. One day, he jumped up on the sofa and when my husband went to put him down, he growled and snapped at him. My husband immediately removed him from the couch and put him on the floor on his back. He was gentle, but firm. It is something that has to be done. You have to be the pack leader, especially with a dog who outweighs you and is stronger than you. I think it all comes down to reading your puppy and knowing the difference between a dominance battle and just play.

Your are absolutely right. And your husband did the right thing. And I bet ever since then your dog knows where he stands in the food line.

 

[Boxergirl]

It's a shame that there are still trainers that advocate pinning and alpha rolling. Even the Monks of New Skete, who originally popularized the technique, now strongly discourage it.

 

[Nik]

My dogs are allowed to express dislike for things. They are not allowed to snap at me, but that's something that a puppy has to learn. At 13 weeks old this dog is still learning the human rules. I have one dog that does not like to be restrained. It's the only time he growls. I appreciate that growl and never correct it. It's his only way to tell me he's uncomfortable with the situation. If I corrected that growl, I'd end up with a dog that bites without warning. Believe me, vet techs appreciate a dog that growls. I'm not saying that I don't handle my dogs. I do. Constantly. I just appreciate that my dog tells me what he is uncomfortable with and I try to find another way to do what needs to be done.


I completely disagree with pinning dogs. I think it teaches the pup nothing except that sometimes these humans like to manhandle and scare them. I do agree that we have to decide what is acceptable in our household and what is not. Rules are important and they must be consistent. I do, however, think that there are so many better ways to teach these rules than by pinning/alpha rolling.

I think it depends on how the "pinning" is done. When Diesel was very young he was like a crazy crocodile shark. In addition to the normal puppy zoomies he would go crazy rolling on his back and trying to bite anything that he could get ahold of including any part of our body that was in range. There as no malice behind it. There was no dominance behind it. He was a puppy that was separated from the mom far too young and had no bite inhibition and he thought it was fun. It was part of his "zoomies". We did a LOT of training with Diesel. Stuff I had known previously and did on my own with him, private lessons, class lessons from multiple schools, structured activities etc.

One of the instructors taught us a variation of "pinning". He wasn't teaching it to us as an alpha roll domination thing. He taught it to us as a way to help calm Diesel until his brain started working again. Because no redirects, commands, distractions etc. would work when he went into crocodile mode. When he was teeny the "pin" was just a bear hug that immobilized him. But, as Diesel got bigger the bear hug no longer worked (for me) due to size, weight, strength, etc. so we now do it on the floor.

The thing is that the bear hug/pinning worked. It didn't upset him. It actually seemed to help calm him and get his brain working so we could play in more acceptable ways that didn't leave our hands bleeding. This was never a negative or intimidation thing for him. Though I understand that alpha rolling can be negative for some dogs or if done certain ways and I don't consider what we did to be alpha rolling, but it was a useful tool in our training arsenal.

Diesel doesn't really have crocodile moments so much now that he is older and he certainly doesn't bite us any longer (even in play)... But, every single day he demands to be pinned. He very much wants that particular interaction and he wants it from both my husband and myself. He likes it so much that the moment we get into the position or even get close to getting into the position he just flops over happily. At this point no pressure or firm hold is needed. He just wants the contact and feel of that complete body bear hug. I don't think he needs it for calming or brain functioning any longer. It just makes him feel loved, comforted and safe. And if we ignore his signs that he is ready for pinning he throws a full on fit, barking and whining and talking and grumbling until we comply. We don't really like giving into tantrums so sometimes we send him on time out when he does the tantrum thing for it and as soon as he is calm and quiet in his box we let him out and then do the bear hug/pin he wants. Other times we are bad and give into the tantrum... and by we I mean my husband.

Anyhow I know that is a verrrryy long way of saying that sometimes pinning isn't necessarily a negative experience for the dog. It all depends on how it is done and on the dog's individual personality.

 

[Nik]

Also as far as being able to touch a dog where ever you want I have always found that if you start early on and reward it with love, treats, play etc. Make it a positive thing that typically there isn't a problem being able to touch and handle a dog in any which way. Now, if you get an older dog that would be different but for puppies the rule is start early and keep it positive.

And for puppies the only exception is with injuries... if your dog is hurt they will not want to be touched because it hurts. Diesel has repeatedly broken his tail by wagging it into things like walls so he doesn't like it to be touched because it is very sensitive. He won't snap or try to bite or growl. He flinches and dances away. If I need to touch it for any reason I always am careful to be extremely gentle and slow because I know his tail is so sensitive being a repeatedly injured body part.

 

[Boxergirl]

I don't think a bear hug is the same as pinning at all. Pinning, to me, is putting them on the floor and holding them on their back until they "submit." Al, my troubled one, finds a bear hug calming. Pinning him to the floor would be totally different. IMO.

 

[Elana P]

Ladies,

I am not on this Forum to argue with you, to fight with you, to convince you, or force you to my way of doing things, or whatever it is that you appear to think is going on here.

We are all here to share how we do things, and yes, some of us have different methods than others whether we like it or not.

I am simply saying what works for me, what has worked for me for over fifty years .

My dogs love me and respect me, and I have a deep and abiding love for them as well. I also respect them, as 'dogs' (which is who and what they are), as companions, as friends, and as protectors if and when the need arises. They look up to me for sustenance, shelter, love, comfort, companionship, protection if the need arises, and yes, leadership.

Are we equals in this relationship? No.

I do not treat them as people (which they are not) and I do not attribute refined human sensibilities or philosophizing to them. Do they have feeling and experience emotions? Yes. Do they sit there and dwell and worry about their hurt feelings? No. They would much rather be out playing with me and with each other, sniffing, leaving pe- mails, running, eating, or getting belly rubs and enjoying life as dogs.

No, they are not allowed to snap and bite, end of story.

Yes, they allow me to touch them wherever they need to be touched, and trust me when I allow others to touch them as well when it is warrented.

If you have a problem with that, then so be it.

 

[Nik]

By the way, did you also pin you kids down when they were having a temper tantrum?

Try not to judge me to horribly for this one.... but I have pinned my little sister once when she threw a tantrum (I am a lot older than her... so I was an adult and she was somewhere between the ages of 4 and 6 at the time.. can't quite recall). The little stinker was very very strong and tall early on so she was able to reach the door knob and locks on the front door and knew how to unlock and open everything up. She decided she wanted to go outside and play... It was 10 at night. She was supposed to be in bed. I told her no to going outside and playing and she ignored me and ran to the door and started undoing/unlocking and would not stop. I had to literally sit on top of her to make her stay and I had to stay on top of her for awhile before she would settle down and stop trying for the door..... So as a result of that particular incident I am of the opinion that there are scenarios in which human children may need to be pinned.

 

[Elana P]

Try not to judge me to horribly for this one.... but I have pinned my little sister once when she threw a tantrum (I am a lot older than her... so I was an adult and she was somewhere between the ages of 4 and 6 at the time.. can't quite recall). The little stinker was very very strong and tall early on so she was able to reach the door knob and locks on the front door and knew how to unlock and open everything up. She decided she wanted to go outside and play... It was 10 at night. She was supposed to be in bed. I told her no to going outside and playing and she ignored me and ran to the door and started undoing/unlocking and would not stop. I had to literally sit on top of her to make her stay and I had to stay on top of her for awhile before she would settle down and stop trying for the door..... So as a result of that particular incident I am of the opinion that there are scenarios in which human children may need to be pinned.

 

[Elana P]

Oh My God!!!!
LMAO !!!

You just made me spit out half of my ice tea all over myself and choke over it in the process.

I needed that good laugh, but not the ice tea coming out of my nose all over my shirt.

 

[Lisa Drew]

I still think you have to teach them manners when they are young. Our puppy was not hurt in any way, shape or form. He went right back to playing and being his silly self, lol. He never tried to get on the sofa again or throw a temper tantrum. Temper tantrums can be cute as puppies, but not so cute when a 180 lb adult throws one, ya know? Everyone has different training techniques and things that work for one might not work for another. I think if you are gentle, yet firm and shower them with love, you will have a good dog. I saw a man with a staffie puppy on the street once and every time the puppy tried to play or be friendly with another person, the man would growl at him and jerk the lead. You don't know me well, lol...but, I just HAD to say something. I walked up to him and said, "I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here, but all you are doing is making that puppy become a nervous, mean dog. Of course, he told me to %&*$ off, lol, but I had my say.

 

[Iulicris88]

I don't think a bear hug is the same as pinning at all. Pinning, to me, is putting them on the floor and holding them on their back until they "submit." Al, my troubled one, finds a bear hug calming. Pinning him to the floor would be totally different. IMO.

Deep touch pressure , or bear hugging, in this case, acts as a calming or focusing agent to increase activity in the parasympathetic nervous system. It basically helps increase endorphin levels and decrease blood presure and heart rate, and also stimulates the release of serotonin and dopamine. It's been proven to be efficient in people suffering from mental disorders, such as anxiety, so it would make sense to help a pup suffering from the same condition.
I will not post articles stating why pinning or alpha rolling a dog is not the best idea, everyone can make his/her own research. I will post a fun fact (not), though: one third of the people alpha rolling their dog get their face bitten off. Or whatever the dog can get to.

 

[gilles]

Millie is 13.5 weeks old now. She is incredibly energetic, which I'm hoping will calm down a bit now she can go out (first outing tomorrow). The other day, I was trying to get her in her crate and she was running away from me. It was late, I was tired. I tried grabbing her from behind, not managing to quite get her a couple of times. She turned around and kind of snapped at me. 2 days on now, and nothing else like that until just now. I put a blanket on the couch for her next to me as she will not stop and nap unless it's on me; I have things to do in the evenings so have decided to give in and let her sleep next to me. Anyway, I was in the phone and she was on the blanket, being playful rather than sleepy. She was on her back and snapping like a crocodile, trying to bite anything (not aggressively, just in a puppy way). I was on the phone, tickling her tummy. She then all of a sudden made a strange growling noise (not quite a growl though) and snapped towards my face. I pushed her away, told her off and crated her for a couple of minutes.

Is this a puppy testing her limits, should I be concerned?

this is a normal behavior at this age and no you should not be concerned, you should rather be happy , your pup has a strong character and this is not bad. BUT you should correct any biting behavior with patience and consistency.