Positive reinforcement training??!@!

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Ha Ruth, Apollo's hair is probably great to snuggle up too when its cold too!

Personally I don't like halti's or gentle leaders. Many dane and even a few mastiff owners swear by them. I tried it before when I had a dog aggression dane, although it did "redirect" him it wasn't in a good way. Too many close calls with him nearly snapping his neck. A former mastiff playmate had marks all over his face because he was pulling so hard with the GL/Halti, others the same spinal or nerve issue. Now of course this falls back on the owner but I still prefer my prong.

Atlas Mom, I would find another trainer if you don't feel comfortable or the "trainer" is being harmful to your dog. It does no good for everyone invovled with so much tension in the air. Find someone who you are comfortable with and shares your ideas in training.

Dogs are indivuals like people some require a firm hand other a little less. Point is we should be finding what works for our dogs.

 

[Atlas_Mama]

thanks! I am looking forward to seeing where this new positive reinforcement training goes after a few weeks- will keep everyone posted!

 

[Robtouw]

Lasco was ok. Both he and Rollie ended up having surgery after the accident, but everyone ended up ok. It was a big learning experience! People responded to our accident in a big helpful way and Geico was excellent, they paid for my vet bills, all $6K of it because the drunk that hit us was uninsured, unliscensed w/3 prior DWI's and we had uninsured motorist coverage and an umbrella on our policy. I never want to have that experience again!

 

[DennasMom]

This is the video that I watched that made me think using a prong collar would be helpful for Denna (but it was still more than she needed, and/or I still introduced it wrong, so we abandoned it and are staying with a flat collar): [video=youtube;85r03U5WPV8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85r03U5WPV8&feature=plcp[/video] [BuffaloDogTraining - How to use a prong collar part 2] Part 1 shows the dogs before they started... pulling, distracted, over-excited pups!

Looking at this again, and adding in the clicker training from last night's class we took... seems to me patiences is the key and doing just a very little bit at a time, making sure you're communicating with the dog in a way they understand... just one action at a time... when they get it, lots of rewards. The thing I liked about the video, is that you're teaching the dog that THEY have control over their reactions, and when they do what you want, they get rewards [this was also the philosophy with the clicker class last night]... which is much better than the alternative (negative consequences). The reaction of the dachshund from beginning to end was pretty nice to see. The dog was gaining confidence by use of the training tool (and probably consistency in the handler's part, too). I'd be curious how the dogs do when they're back with their original handlers/owners... I don't see part 3 available online... hmmm...

---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

And... Robtouw - glad your pups are ok after your accident!!
It does make one think about what might happen. I try not worry about accidents happening, opting to be prepared, instead... (doesn't always work that way, but I do try...)

 

[DennasMom]

And... Robtouw - glad your pups are ok after your accident!!
It does make one think about what might happen. I try not worry about accidents happening, opting to be prepared, instead... (doesn't always work that way, but I do try...)

 

[ruthcatrin]

But once this new training gets going hopefully i can start feeling more confident with him in public situations with a regular collar- or harness- and i always have to have my treat waist bag ready for these kinds of walks lol

Your confidence makes a huge difference too, the dog can tell.

How often have you worn a prong collar and received correction while wearing one?

I have now worked with abused animals for 6 years and have seen what pain people inflict in the name of training and simply refuse to use pain in any degree as a training method. There is always a way to respectfully train an animal, it is up to the owner to experiment and find it. It is not always fun, can be frustrating and at times scary but there is always an answer.

Did you actually read ALL of Jadotha's post or just that one line?

And while I'll agree that an incorrectly used prong can potentially cause pain, when used correctly it does not. Please don't let your own experience bias you to a training tool that can be usefull when used PROPERLY. Its not the prong collar's fault you didn't take it off the dog when you should have. If you choose not to use it thats fine, thats your choice, but used CORRECTLY, it does not cause pain and is an effective training tool for some dogs.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx3k-AneeiI&list=UU0qxt93i8Rvqf0w2kxsN4UQ&index=3&feature=plcp

Here's a video of how to properly use a choke chain. Works with a prong collar too

 

[ruthcatrin]

Looking at this again, and adding in the clicker training from last night's class we took... seems to me patiences is the key and doing just a very little bit at a time, making sure you're communicating with the dog in a way they understand... just one action at a time... when they get it, lots of rewards. The thing I liked about the video, is that you're teaching the dog that THEY have control over their reactions, and when they do what you want, they get rewards [this was also the philosophy with the clicker class last night]... which is much better than the alternative (negative consequences). The reaction of the dachshund from beginning to end was pretty nice to see. The dog was gaining confidence by use of the training tool (and probably consistency in the handler's part, too).

Yes, that is the correct way to intro a prong to a dog. Slowly and carefully. No yanking on the collar, no hard corrections, no pain. And the dog learns how to make it work so that they can avoid even a little discomfort.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Your confidence makes a huge difference too, the dog can tell.





Did you actually read ALL of Jadotha's post or just that one line?

And while I'll agree that an incorrectly used prong can potentially cause pain, when used correctly it does not. Please don't let your own experience bias you to a training tool that can be usefull when used PROPERLY. Its not the prong collar's fault you didn't take it off the dog when you should have. If you choose not to use it thats fine, thats your choice, but used CORRECTLY, it does not cause pain and is an effective training tool for some dogs.

Yes,

and YES.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

If the prong collar doesn't cause pain, can anyone explain how it actually works?

 

[Marrowshard]

@Glasgow:
Negative reinforcement doesn't always = pain, you seem to be missing that. Negative reinforcement is just something that the dog seeks to avoid, whether it's pain, discomfort, isolation, boredom, etc. If a child is misbehaving at dinner and I say "no dessert", I've just performed negative reinforcement. I didn't reach across the table and smack them, but their action has a negative consequence that will (hopefully) lead to improved behavior. "Negative reinforcement" is a spectrum, not a "do it my way or suffer" ultimatum.
I've had people talk to me on walks and ask "doesn't that hurt the dog, poking into his neck like that?" to which my response is generally a show-and-tell. A lot of people calm down when they see the prongs are actually really dull - not pointy - and that they basically sit in a fold of skin. I've never had anyone get angry with me over it but I do correct a lot of people's assumptions that way. I used to own horses and the various bits used in a bridle can range from not-there-at-all (hackamore) to extreme (spade) and everything in the middle (typical snaffle, curb, etc.). Some have special metals or keys or rollers to encourage mouthing, some have hinged cheeks or whatever but they're all designed with a specific use in mind. You'd be an idiot to throw a high-port curb on a green colt for the same reason as throwing a prong collar on a young puppy. You'd also never use a "severe" bit and just haul on it.
Essentially, and echoing others here, a prong collar is a tool that - when used properly - causes discomfort to the dog just like a port bit puts uncomfortable pressure on the roof of a horse's mouth. You're not making a useful distinction between people who just buy the biggest prong they can find and slap it on a dog and then proceed the yank on it ad nauseum and the people who properly size and fit the collar and find a competent trainer to assist in learning how to use it as a form of correction.

@Atlas:
You may or may not be aware of it, but they do make little rubber nubbies for prong collars. They're cheaply bought by the bag and you just pop them over the points on the prong. The idea is the same, but for a dog with thin skin or an owner who's worried about stressing the fur/neck too much. Something you might look into if you're wanting to buffer the feel of the prong a little, but I agree with ruthcatrin you seem to be getting the worst "black-and-white" trainers out there. When we were looking for a trainer in our area, I made a short-list based on their breed experience then went after personal statements. I was able to find someone willing to give me the nitty gritty for our trainer and in the end it sealed the deal. I'd suggest you arrange to sit in on a session - without your dog - and see how a trainer operates before agreeing to bring Atlas in for a lesson. A good trainer will understand your concerns about equipment and firmness of attitude and will work with you instead of just doing as they see fit.

~Marrow

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Prong collar's work by positive punishment (adding something to decrease a behaviour) rather than negative reinforcement (taking something away to increase a behaviour) as you state.

Positive punishment works by adding something unpleasant or painful so the dog doesn't do what it's doing so you don't hurt it again.

 

[Marrowshard]

Okay, have it your way ... a prong collar causes unpleasantness, which is not the same thing as pain. What was your problem, again?

~Marrow

 

[joshuagough]

I'd agree with a prong collar isn't for any dog.. period and I have never had one on any of my dogs. I don't like the "wear" marks from any collar on a dog, just a personal thing.. you don't tend to get them with a choke collar.

One thing I've found to best curb the pulling issue is having the dog on a lead walking beside you then change your direction (walk backwards), if the dog makes it to the end of the leash without following you correct him with a No or combine it with a pop of the lead if the dog is just supper stubborn (the intent is minimum force, your not trying to inflict damage to the dog). You want to insure you give the dog a chance to follow a few times before you correct vocally or with applied force.

Most service dogs go through months of the directional change scenario to insure they are focused on the handler/person in need, I don't know the specific tie-in with this and pulling but it's always worked for me.

Then they're not using the prong collar correctly, or the prong isn't the solution for those dogs. There are dogs for whom a choke is perfect, and dogs who'll bull right on through even as they choke to death. And if your prong was leaving impressions in your dog's neck then you weren't fitting it right.

---------- Post added at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------

I've left a choke collar on more than 20 dogs over the last 20 years.. all of them have died of old age. I would not put a dog in a crate with any collar on however.

Which is why you NEVER LEAVE IT ON THE DOG UNLESS YOU'RE ACTUALLY ATTACHED TO THE LEASH. Same thing with a choke, NEVER JUST LEAVE IT ON THE DOG. The only time anything other than a plain buckle/slip collar should be on a dog is when you're actively working the dog, I don't care if its 5 minutes down the road, I don't care if its just for a minute in the house, do NOT leave it on the dog unless you're actively using it. Not unless you're TRYING to kill your dog!

 

[joshuagough]

double post.. sorry

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Well I must admit I don't wear my prong to work anymore as they had a few questions about S&M toys that were uncomfortable to answer

Glasgow you can chose to use what works for you as far as training and I am sure your clients are happy and that is the main thing. I will continue to use what works for my dogs and I as I am not a dog trainer (don't have the patience to deal with the owners). I use training tools that suit the requirement of the dog, whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant, I have used more than a few different trainers and have settled with ones that meet my needs and those of my dogs. They do not push one method above the other and while you have had success with your methods there are others that don't agree.

It is a lot like what is the right way to raise kids, everyone has an opinion their's is always right. I also have seen enough shows where wild animal (that have been trained to perform tasks, be it your tiger or whale) attack out of nowhere so I am a little hesitant to put all my eggs in your basket that it is the only way

Josh I am glad that you have had great luck with a choke and if it works then all the power to you but I wouldn't be keeping one on the dog if they are not training. When working at a clinic I had to console a devastated woman who had them on her dogs all the time and while they were out playing the dogs got caught and one dog actually choked the other to death.

 

[joshuagough]

I understand where you going with the dog being able to get hung up and choke, but that would be the case with any collar. I don't leave my dogs in situations where they have a chance to be hung up.

Well I must admit I don't wear my prong to work anymore as they had a few questions about S&M toys that were uncomfortable to answer

Glasgow you can chose to use what works for you as far as training and I am sure your clients are happy and that is the main thing. I will continue to use what works for my dogs and I as I am not a dog trainer (don't have the patience to deal with the owners). I use training tools that suit the requirement of the dog, whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant, I have used more than a few different trainers and have settled with ones that meet my needs and those of my dogs. They do not push one method above the other and while you have had success with your methods there are others that don't agree.

It is a lot like what is the right way to raise kids, everyone has an opinion their's is always right. I also have seen enough shows where wild animal (that have been trained to perform tasks, be it your tiger or whale) attack out of nowhere so I am a little hesitant to put all my eggs in your basket that it is the only way

Josh I am glad that you have had great luck with a choke and if it works then all the power to you but I wouldn't be keeping one on the dog if they are not training. When working at a clinic I had to console a devastated woman who had them on her dogs all the time and while they were out playing the dogs got caught and one dog actually choked the other to death.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Josh I am glad that you have had great luck with a choke and if it works then all the power to you but I wouldn't be keeping one on the dog if they are not training. When working at a clinic I had to console a devastated woman who had them on her dogs all the time and while they were out playing the dogs got caught and one dog actually choked the other to death.

This. I know people, personally, who had dogs die cause their choke got caught on something when no one was close enough to do something about it in time and no, it wasn't while they were crated. Heck, Arty got his tag collar caught on the underside of the fence he decided to dig under two weeks ago, and if I didn't deliberetly buckle those loose enough to slide off in just such a situation it could have been BAD. Thankfully I was right there TO, I just hadn't realized how close to the fence bottom he was till he squawked and backed out without his collar.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I understand where you going with the dog being able to get hung up and choke, but that would be the case with any collar. I don't leave my dogs in situations where they have a chance to be hung up.

Yes, but chokes are MADE to and will tighten down worse. And it can be ANYWHERE. Another dog making a grab at their neck and gravbing collar, something sticking out just right when the dog brushes by, my friend's dog got her's caught on a stick in the yard, it was 20 minutes before she realized the dog hadn't asked to come back in.....

 

[raechiemay]

Here's a silly question. Do they make flat dog collars that have a pressure hook on them that will snap if under a certain amount of pressure or pulling? Kind of like what they have for cats. I think they're called safe collars? If the cat gets stuck or hung up on something a separate clip or buckle gives to the pressure & releases the collar from the neck. I think I've seen something similar on a lab, but I'm not sure if that's exactly what it was.