Prong collars

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Excellent Karen. The power fo non aversive training and a dog how's owner who wants to train withour hurting their dog. Kudos to you.

 

[xcrazydx]

If you're hurting the dog with a prong collar you are not using it correctly.

 

[karennj]

Excellent Karen. The power fo non aversive training and a dog how's owner who wants to train withour hurting their dog. Kudos to you.

Thanks! Yes it takes a bit longer but the relationship I am building with my dog is worth the work. I considered a prong and halti something negative for Bear by the way he was reacting when I put it on him. Because I wanted him to do therapy work I could not risk building any negative associations while out socializing with people. There is something very powerful and satisfying about being able to control a dog that weighs the same as you with your voice. Last night as we stopped to wait for lights people around us kept asking me how I was controlling him, especially when they found out he was only 1.5yrs old.

I have nothing against people who use prongs, it's just not for us.

 

[gilles]

i dont like to use prongs or Ecollars for that matter, however some breeds and some dogs are very hard to train and a prong can help from time to time....sorry guys a good quality prong if used properly does not hurt much it just makes the dog a bit uncomfortable...it has to be a good quality prong otherwise it could hurt.

 

[xcrazydx]

A good quality prong doesn't hurt at all if used properly.

 

[CeeCee]

Thanks! Yes it takes a bit longer but the relationship I am building with my dog is worth the work. I considered a prong and halti something negative for Bear by the way he was reacting when I put it on him. Because I wanted him to do therapy work I could not risk building any negative associations while out socializing with people. There is something very powerful and satisfying about being able to control a dog that weighs the same as you with your voice. Last night as we stopped to wait for lights people around us kept asking me how I was controlling him, especially when they found out he was only 1.5yrs old.

I have nothing against people who use prongs, it's just not for us.

That sounds perfect! You know yourself and your dog and you made the best decision for each of you. Congratulations!

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

If the prong collar doesn't hurt or cause discomfort how does it work?

 

[gilles]

If the prong collar doesn't hurt or cause discomfort how does it work?

hehe good point! i guess we meant that it does not inflict an injury if it is a good quality and well rounded edges but still it can cause discomfort. it can cause discomfort when pulling hard that is the dog avoids pulling. with volka it does not even cause anything anymore since his skin and coat are very thick but i think he associate it with: Now its no time to be a pain ...
i only use it when he starts acting up and sniffing left and right..he is a big boy and sniffing left and right is very uncomfortable when walking him he can pull you with his neck movements.
however, i never use the prong as a basis for training.

 

[CeeCee]

Before jumping back into this, please let me say, Glasgow, I have nothing by respect for your experience and your point of view. I hope my post will not be taken as any sort of defense or attack. I am genuinely trying to understand.

You used the word "discomfort" and I found myself asking "why is discomfort bad or something to be avoided?"

As humans we experience discomfort on regular basis - it is a part of life. Yes, too much discomfort for too long or taken to extremes can shut us down and potentially do emotional or psychological damage, but temporary/fleeting discomfort (which I believe a properly used training tool can provide) can cause to us to move into a new space (physical, mental, or emotional), to do things differently, and to grow our skills. I ABSOLUTELY AGREE that we NEVER want to inflict pain on any soul!

One of the things I do for our shelter is run canine play groups. Everyday I see dogs use pressure to communicate with one another. The pressure causes the receiving dog to do something different. Now, does the recipient feel "discomfort," I can't know, but I can observe the recipient's body language and interpret - based on what I see, I would say the recipient feels a level of discomfort. What I've observed is that the pressure/discomfort, IF DELIVERED BY A BALANCED AND APPROPRIATE dog and IS EQUAL TO OR SLIGHTLY GREATER THAN the "offense", will result in the recipient doing something different i.e., move out of the other dog's space, reduce their energy, stop jumping on top of other dogs, be more aware of the other dogs in the yard and not continue to run into them, etc.

Once the message has been received, rarely - if ever, does that dog need to be addressed again by a dog and results in a calmer, more respectful and socially accepted dog.

Again, I ask because I am trying to understand.

 

[season]

^^^ well said.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

For me, the fallout is always something I need to take into account. We have to look at what is reinforcing for us as well. If I use a prong and it works, the next time I use it and it doesn't work, I'm tempted to "use it more" i.e harder corrections. It's the way all animals learn, including us, and the reason why we keep pressing the button for the elevator when it doesn't come - because we have learned that pressing the button works.

Yes, all animals within a species but pressure on others, but do you like the boss who puts undue pressure on you, intimidates you? Or would you rather be around those who motivate you with god things. Could you ever learn to play the violin using shocks? Or using shocks and praise? Or would you rather be taught by someone who showed you what to do and enabled you to work out where you went wrong?

There are some here who are perfectly happy to use aversive training (or balanced training as the euphemistically call it). I'll repeat it, I used to be one, but when I started on the path i am on now I quickly learned that dogs learn better without aversive training and there is a tonne of scientific evidence to support it. If you need, for your own ego's sake to use aversives, to show your dog that you are boss, dominant, pack leader etc go right ahead. But would you put a prong collar on a bear if you were training him? And bears put a huge amount of the pressure you speak of on each other.

Would you not rather teach anyone, animal or human, without ever correcting them? Would that not make you a better teacher? For me the answer is yes, but it's maybe not the same for every one.

I have just uploaded three videos of me working my own dog over three sessions in 4 days. When you look at her behaviour in the first compared to the third, all without using physical or verbal corrections, then is that not worth it? And yes, I've done this on hundreds of dogs of every breed type, including mastiffs.

 

[fila4me]

Before jumping back into this, please let me say, Glasgow, I have nothing by respect for your experience and your point of view. I hope my post will not be taken as any sort of defense or attack. I am genuinely trying to understand.

You used the word "discomfort" and I found myself asking "why is discomfort bad or something to be avoided?"

As humans we experience discomfort on regular basis - it is a part of life. Yes, too much discomfort for too long or taken to extremes can shut us down and potentially do emotional or psychological damage, but temporary/fleeting discomfort (which I believe a properly used training tool can provide) can cause to us to move into a new space (physical, mental, or emotional), to do things differently, and to grow our skills. I ABSOLUTELY AGREE that we NEVER want to inflict pain on any soul!

One of the things I do for our shelter is run canine play groups. Everyday I see dogs use pressure to communicate with one another. The pressure causes the receiving dog to do something different. Now, does the recipient feel "discomfort," I can't know, but I can observe the recipient's body language and interpret - based on what I see, I would say the recipient feels a level of discomfort. What I've observed is that the pressure/discomfort, IF DELIVERED BY A BALANCED AND APPROPRIATE dog and IS EQUAL TO OR SLIGHTLY GREATER THAN the "offense", will result in the recipient doing something different i.e., move out of the other dog's space, reduce their energy, stop jumping on top of other dogs, be more aware of the other dogs in the yard and not continue to run into them, etc.

Once the message has been received, rarely - if ever, does that dog need to be addressed again by a dog and results in a calmer, more respectful and socially accepted dog.

Again, I ask because I am trying to understand.

totally agree

 

[fila4me]

For me, the fallout is always something I need to take into account. We have to look at what is reinforcing for us as well. If I use a prong and it works, the next time I use it and it doesn't work, I'm tempted to "use it more" i.e harder corrections. It's the way all animals learn, including us, and the reason why we keep pressing the button for the elevator when it doesn't come - because we have learned that pressing the button works.

Yes, all animals within a species but pressure on others, but do you like the boss who puts undue pressure on you, intimidates you? Or would you rather be around those who motivate you with god things. Could you ever learn to play the violin using shocks? Or using shocks and praise? Or would you rather be taught by someone who showed you what to do and enabled you to work out where you went wrong?

There are some here who are perfectly happy to use aversive training (or balanced training as the euphemistically call it). I'll repeat it, I used to be one, but when I started on the path i am on now I quickly learned that dogs learn better without aversive training and there is a tonne of scientific evidence to support it. If you need, for your own ego's sake to use aversives, to show your dog that you are boss, dominant, pack leader etc go right ahead. But would you put a prong collar on a bear if you were training him? And bears put a huge amount of the pressure you speak of on each other.

Would you not rather teach anyone, animal or human, without ever correcting them? Would that not make you a better teacher? For me the answer is yes, but it's maybe not the same for every one.

I have just uploaded three videos of me working my own dog over three sessions in 4 days. When you look at her behaviour in the first compared to the third, all without using physical or verbal corrections, then is that not worth it? And yes, I've done this on hundreds of dogs of every breed type, including mastiffs.

how many Filas?
In 22+yrs using prong collars I have never experienced it working one time and then not working the next. My dogs hardly ever get corrected any more. I have major health issues going on and I know when my youngest goes for her first walk in a few months she wI'll need a quick reminder.
I prefer to train with which ever method (s) works with the individual dog.
My Filas are on prongs because people are idiots and do not listen sometimes when I tell them to not approach us,. The idiots shouldbe glad I protect them from getting bit!
I watch my dogs play many times a day, I could never correct them as hard as they correct each other! It is physically impossible and they don't even cry out. Most times don't even shy away.

 

[Th0r]

For me, the fallout is always something I need to take into account. We have to look at what is reinforcing for us as well. If I use a prong and it works, the next time I use it and it doesn't work, I'm tempted to "use it more" i.e harder corrections. It's the way all animals learn, including us, and the reason why we keep pressing the button for the elevator when it doesn't come - because we have learned that pressing the button works.

Yes, all animals within a species but pressure on others, but do you like the boss who puts undue pressure on you, intimidates you? Or would you rather be around those who motivate you with god things. Could you ever learn to play the violin using shocks? Or using shocks and praise? Or would you rather be taught by someone who showed you what to do and enabled you to work out where you went wrong?

There are some here who are perfectly happy to use aversive training (or balanced training as the euphemistically call it). I'll repeat it, I used to be one, but when I started on the path i am on now I quickly learned that dogs learn better without aversive training and there is a tonne of scientific evidence to support it. If you need, for your own ego's sake to use aversives, to show your dog that you are boss, dominant, pack leader etc go right ahead. But would you put a prong collar on a bear if you were training him? And bears put a huge amount of the pressure you speak of on each other.

Would you not rather teach anyone, animal or human, without ever correcting them? Would that not make you a better teacher? For me the answer is yes, but it's maybe not the same for every one.

I have just uploaded three videos of me working my own dog over three sessions in 4 days. When you look at her behaviour in the first compared to the third, all without using physical or verbal corrections, then is that not worth it? And yes, I've done this on hundreds of dogs of every breed type, including mastiffs.

Well what you say is all fine and dandy if you live in an ideal world or a bubble, but for those of us in the real world, we have to worry about people and other dogs that can't be avoided!

 

[xcrazydx]

Not using a prong is dangerous to the dog, strangers and the handler if out in public. Unless you live in a bubble

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

I don't live in a bubble and train in public places around off lead dogs. Again, if you think you need to rely on prong collars then you'll never be motivated to learn less aversive ways. But each to their own.

 

[xcrazydx]

I don't live in a bubble and train in public places around off lead dogs. Again, if you think you need to rely on prong collars then you'll never be motivated to learn less aversive ways. But each to their own.

I hope your dog stays perfect!

 

[Smokeycat]

For me, the fallout is always something I need to take into account. We have to look at what is reinforcing for us as well. If I use a prong and it works, the next time I use it and it doesn't work, I'm tempted to "use it more" i.e harder corrections. It's the way all animals learn, including us, and the reason why we keep pressing the button for the elevator when it doesn't come - because we have learned that pressing the button works.

Yes, all animals within a species but pressure on others, but do you like the boss who puts undue pressure on you, intimidates you? Or would you rather be around those who motivate you with god things. Could you ever learn to play the violin using shocks? Or using shocks and praise? Or would you rather be taught by someone who showed you what to do and enabled you to work out where you went wrong?

There are some here who are perfectly happy to use aversive training (or balanced training as the euphemistically call it). I'll repeat it, I used to be one, but when I started on the path i am on now I quickly learned that dogs learn better without aversive training and there is a tonne of scientific evidence to support it. If you need, for your own ego's sake to use aversives, to show your dog that you are boss, dominant, pack leader etc go right ahead. But would you put a prong collar on a bear if you were training him? And bears put a huge amount of the pressure you speak of on each other.

Would you not rather teach anyone, animal or human, without ever correcting them? Would that not make you a better teacher? For me the answer is yes, but it's maybe not the same for every one.

I have just uploaded three videos of me working my own dog over three sessions in 4 days. When you look at her behaviour in the first compared to the third, all without using physical or verbal corrections, then is that not worth it? And yes, I've done this on hundreds of dogs of every breed type, including mastiffs.

I can agree that with a healthy and sound dog where the behavior that you are trying to correct is the only concern using completely non aversive techniques can work. But if there are medical conditions, temperament or additional behavioral issues to consider the time that the start of the positive approach can be detrimental instead of beneficial.
Based on my experience with Kryten it was extremely detrimental. Following his surgery for elbow dysplasia the only time he left the yard for the next 2 months was to go to the vet. Once he could start leaving the yard his walks started at 5 minutes and we deliberately had to avoid other dogs (vet orders) for the next couple of months. When we finally got the clearance to increase the length of his walks we started to encounter other dogs and for a social guy like Kryten who had been unable to interact with any dog other than Jiggers for almost 5 months his excitement level would shoot through the roof. His elbow was still fragile and as such every lunge to go say hi to another dog or cat was a risk of breaking the screws or the partially healed bone. Not walking was not an option as he had to do several short walks everyday to help heal and after one lunge he became non weight bearing. Thankfully there was no serious damage but it became clear that the positive techniques had failed, for his own safety he needed to relearn now that he couldn't lunge. The prong was the answer. Also instead of breaking his spirit, he loves it. He could care less if you touch his leash but becomes the 'bucking bull' (his excited behavior) if you touch the prong collar.
Also I know that I would rather be told how to do something and then told when I'm doing it wrong (even if I then have to figure out the right way) rather than have someone make me figure out what they are thinking. So no I don't want the teacher who only gives gold stars, I want the one that gives red x's too.

 

[karennj]

Not using a prong is dangerous to the dog, strangers and the handler if out in public. Unless you live in a bubble

This is a gross exaggeration right? I feel like there has to be some sort of sarcasm here but in way I think your serious.....

 

[xcrazydx]

This is a gross exaggeration right? I feel like there has to be some sort of sarcasm here but in way I think your serious.....

Semper Fi!