Some dogs need harsh training?

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

[video=youtube;pWGOtY5N58I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=45&v=pWGOtY5N58I[/video]

And yet we apparently still "need" to train some dogs using a prong collar. Yeah, right. You might need to but if you're good enough you don't.

 

[Iymala]

OK, that is a cute video showing shaping of a behavior. I don't think anyone on these forums will argue that when teaching a behavior your need to use harsh corrections... that would be counter-intuative. Now take that cure alligator and put it in a pen of everything it likes to mess with... some chickens, some small dogs, some small children.... and now agitate it and amp it up since it is in a strange pen. Then put all your trust in the fact that you used some treats to teach it how to ring a bell, maybe even do a few tricks and that it will not attack... or even investigate all those delicious things it wants to mess up.

This video and your comment on it, is comparing apples to oranges. Prongs, chock collars, haltis, and head harnesses are all perform corrections, and the difference is largely in what kind of correction is performed and how "scary" the device looks. Just because it looks cute or benign does not mean that it is not performing a correction. There are very few positive only trainers, and even those who claim that still use devices that use corrections like easy walk harnesses. This is because shaping a behavior in a controlled environment is very different than controlling a dog who is excited, aggitated, or distracted in a high distraction environment. There are many dogs who put a higher value on what they want to do over whatever delicious treat is in your hand, or ball, or that pet that you are going to reward them with. This is not all dogs. Some dogs are more mild mannered and need little to no corrections and only positive reinforcement, but there are other dogs who are the opposite.

Please do not try to assert that a one size fits all training is every appropriate to every dog. It leads to incredibly out of control dogs that are a liability to both their owners and the public.


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[angelbears]

Standing ovation for Iymala!!!

 

[CeeCee]

I am genuinely curious how would a pure postive trainer MANAGE the behavior of a reactive dog while teaching them to walk down a moderately busy city street? In the past the dog has demonstrated lunging, barking, and/or air snapping when they become aroused, frusterated or startled. The dog has snapped at the handler and the things that startle or excit them. In the past the dog has been walked on a flat collar with a 6 foot leash.

 

[SG1]

God bless you lymala.

 

[Nik]

I am genuinely curious how would a pure postive trainer MANAGE the behavior of a reactive dog while teaching them to walk down a moderately busy city street? In the past the dog has demonstrated lunging, barking, and/or air snapping when they become aroused, frusterated or startled. The dog has snapped at the handler and the things that startle or excit them. In the past the dog has been walked on a flat collar with a 6 foot leash.

One of the schools I am currently attending is positive only. They insist that you can keep the dog's attention as long as you use a happy and exciting enough voice. The theory is to make yourself more exciting than the distractions out there. With Diesel this doesn't work entirely on its own. It helps of course but we need the front lead harness and the occasional sharp tug correction or use of "No". I would say we are a primarily positive reinforcement home. But, there are some corrections we use so I can't say that 100% positive only works with us.

 

[DennasMom]

I'm not sure I could EVER make myself more interesting than a tasty chicken running around loose in the vicinity.... especially if the dog I'm working with has already caught and eaten a live chicken...

 

[DDSK]

When Abby gets going there is nothing I can say in any voice to break her attention, I need to give her a tug on the leash or a touch on the back or a tap with my foot to her rear to get her to disengage.

 

[Yamizuma]

One size definitely does not fit all...in pantyhose or dog training or anything, really. In my experience one needs to look at all of the tools in the tool box...and if you need a hammer, use it. If you need a feather, use it. Get the job done the best way you can with the right tool. Can't hammer a nail with a feather, can't dust the blinds with a hammer.


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[fila4me]

An excited voice will just rile up my Filas once they engage on something. The only thing to get there attention is their prong collar. They are a different breed that breaks the mold of many training methods. I like to pull from many methods when train with them. Just using one method would be setting them up for failure and I love them to much to allow that to happen.
Prong collars work for them, using them does not mean I am lazy or any less of a trainer . I have Filas that can do a very long down stay in a crowd and never break it until given the heel command. Training is taken very seriously in my home. It is my job to protect my girls when we have to venture out in public , so they will always be on a prong.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

I feel it takes balance. The correction should only be as "harsh" as it has to be. Would you correct breaking a down/stay the same way you would if they decided to knock over the trash can? No.
If a dog stole a sandwich from a child would you freak out and yell at the dog til it pisses itself? No. I would never do that.
Is using a _____ collar to train your dog Harsh? No. The moderation is in the one giving the corrections. These other things are tools. Use the right tool for the job. Learn how to use the tools properly.

What's really harsh is the lack of knowledge or willingness to learn which tool, and how to use it. It hurts not only the one lacking, but everyone.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

The comments above are really interesting. If you are open to the real possibility (and reality) that with enough creativity and intelligence we can train without using force, you can do it. I do it all the time and get results. Because I know how to. If you don;t know how and aren't willing to learn, statements like "we can train using a happy voice" are made, which really just point out how little the person making the statement knows about training without force (I don't call myself a pure positive trainer, it's a term which means nothing). Also, "balanced" training isn't "balanced" especially if your on the receiving end of it.

 

[Nik]

The comments above are really interesting. If you are open to the real possibility (and reality) that with enough creativity and intelligence we can train without using force, you can do it. I do it all the time and get results. Because I know how to. If you don;t know how and aren't willing to learn, statements like "we can train using a happy voice" are made, which really just point out how little the person making the statement knows about training without force (I don't call myself a pure positive trainer, it's a term which means nothing). Also, "balanced" training isn't "balanced" especially if your on the receiving end of it.

I didn't mean to belittle the positive training methods by mentioning the happy voice. The concept they were teaching was simply that in a distracting environment you need to become the most interesting thing. For most people in my class this means treat rewards. I had mentioned to the teacher that on walks diesel had zero interest in treats, cuddles, toys etc. he is just too excited with the rest of the world. The trainers advice in my case was to talk to him constantly and make my voice exciting. To some degree this is helpful. But without adding in the occasional tug, change of direction, refusal to keep walking until he focuses on me or verbal correction like use of "no" or "uh uh" it won't work on its own with Diesel. For our other dog, cerberus it does but he is more treat and reward driven so he is very easy in that regard. I think each dog needs their own regimen of training based on personality so it is definitely all about balance and figuring out how to communicate with your dog in a way they understand in any given situation.

For Diesel Our walks got much easier when I started incorporating a ton of frequent random stops and going through his commands before continuing. Basically I've been thinking of it like he has add and I have to keep reminding him that he is constantly "earning" the walk. As long as he remembers he is still earning it then he tends to ignore all the distractions. Makes for a slower walk but the results are much nicer. I do still talk to him throughout as my teacher recommended and I think that also helps his focus.


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[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Not at all Nik. From what you are describing on your walk, you are using the oppurtunity to explore/move forward as the reinforcer for interaction with you. That's great training using positive reinforcement. What kills me is that many here say it can't without corrections. Meanwhile, trainers like you and me are getting on with the process of doing it successfully. I know which group I'd rather be in.

We are never going to always make ourselves more interesting than the environment all the time to all dogs. That's why we need to be creative in our approach to training without correction. But again, you are out their doig it while others are moaning about it not being possible.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Depends on your definition of "balance."

If balance is smacking your dog upside the head, than I def wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

yep, and if you're trying to "balance" positive reinforcement with corrections on a prong collar then you really don't know much about training.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Please do not try to assert that a one size fits all training is every appropriate to every dog. It leads to incredibly out of control dogs that are a liability to both their owners and the public.


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It actually doesn't. I'm out there doing it on a daily basis so I know it can be done.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

I am genuinely curious how would a pure postive trainer MANAGE the behavior of a reactive dog while teaching them to walk down a moderately busy city street? In the past the dog has demonstrated lunging, barking, and/or air snapping when they become aroused, frusterated or startled. The dog has snapped at the handler and the things that startle or excit them. In the past the dog has been walked on a flat collar with a 6 foot leash.

If you are genuinely interested, you would start by deliberately training the dog to control his arousal, working in lower stimulating environments and gradually increasing the level of distractions until you are back to walking the dog on the street. There is always the risk of fallout (not falling out, fallout as in negative associations) due to classical conditioning. The other option is DRL - differential reinforcement of lower intensity behaviour, look it up,it works really well.

 

[fila4me]

I really must know how many Filas you have successfully trained with 100% positive training?
I use prong collars by choice on my Filas and Dogos. I know a whole lot about training. I just continuously see comments made about prong collars by you and how we must not know anything about training by using them. Its getting a bit old, we get it you don't like them. Your opinion honestly will never effect my choice of collar. I do use other types of collars on my other dogs.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

We don't have Filas in Scotland but I've seen a Komodo dragon in captivity trained using 100% positive reinforcement. But maybe you're saying a Fila is more difficult to train than a komodo?

I know I'm unlikely to change your view on prong collars, just countering the pervasive attitude of "stick a prong on your dog, their wonderful training tools with no adverse side effects" on this forum and I'll continue to do it.