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Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

When I mentioned Tessa has found some interest in toys...I use the term "Toys" VERY LOOSELY!!! A toy is something that will divert her attention even if just a short while, from destroying something else...Tessa likes wood, no, actually she LOVES wood. I consider driftwood, sticks & small logs "toys". She also loves corrugated cardboard, various types of foam, & Tupperware type of containers. ---Dog toys? a WASTE of my hard earned $$$, they just sit. If she destroys something I give to her, and doesn't steal something important of mine, I consider it a toy. At any given point my floors are covered with remnants of large sticks, cardboard that has been ripped to shreds & whatever foam type stuff I can find. I vacuum 1st with a shop vac--not kidding. v v My furniture however is still in tact--I consider this method of toys a success. Also, recently, Tessa has shown a great interest in dolls, namely cabbage patch dolls, which I can readily find at the thrift store 3 for $10 :) So also, there are doll heads everywhere. My last girl loved cabbage patch dolls too-she however could be amused for hours pulling each individual hair strand from their little heads, not Tessa, she quickly decapitates, pulls all stuffing & leaves it for dead lol. Different strokes for different folks. So the fact that I still have furniture & that most of her 'toys' are much cheaper than NORMAL dog toys has some advantages. The rate at which she can destroy a large thick rawhide stick gets expensive, & only leaves me enough time to take a decent shower...So stocking up on some Tupperware & cabbage patch dolls from the thrift store & driftwood from the river is a bonus. The trick was figuring out what she likes, & then letting her know what is hers. The latter doesn't always work lol.
 

mcleodcon

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Sorry, I am relatively new here, but if I am reading correctly, you want to know if she will guard. It seems to me she actually is doing it naturally. Her instincts when out walking with you seem to be to protect you and she also seemed to know there was a girl laying in the ditch that needed help. They will naturally protect you if you continue what you are doing. I have a friend who's dog was taught to be a guard dog (he did not train him a previous owner did) and he is very aggressive towards people (not always, but people who come in are told not to pet him as he will snap at them). He is aggressive towards other animals (has attacked my pup twice, although never hurt her) as well. To me, he is a trained killer. I would never teach a dog to guard incase that behaviour came through. Even though this is my first EM, the breeder said they are very protective of their 'pack' anyway and I should not have to train her in any other way. She actually had someone break into her house (seriously who would do that with a mastiff there) and her dog (my pups mom) held the person there until she came home. She has not trained her to do that at all. That came naturally. I would not be so worried about it because when the time comes if you are in danger (and she has already shown this) she will protect you
 

cinnamon roll

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Welcome back we missed you. Do you have any new pics of her?
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Nice to be missed by someone I am not feeding LOL

re:pics-I got a new computer & have to get the pics off the old hard drive. I'll get some new pics up at some point soon.

I started this thread a while back, but to be honest, I don't see Tessa as being guardy, or even getting guardy/protective.
Maybe that will change later, but Tessa has been pretty consistent.

Whatever she *is* doing is definitely some type of posturing. It *looks* like a guardy stance, enough to make others take notice-frozen dog standing at attention...
but it seems this is where it ends at this time. Maybe it's just her posture for observing.
For instance, Tessa assumed this posture last night when I could see 2 men approaching us, wearing hoodies & I was thinking-"good, it's late & dark & she appears alert". When she does this, I wrap her leash & hold her closer to me.
When they got about 15 feet from us, 1 man recognized her & said "Hi Tessa!" & well, she went to bits--all gushy & loving & tail wagging, then once they were close enough--wanting belly rubs & just flopped right there on the sidewalk for a belly rub. And of course, she got it...

Now I pass the house of these 2 men daily, they have dogs & she is familiar with them, so maybe that could be it, but it's not just them.

Tessa does this 'thing' when we are on walks--she's a huge attention seeker-she makes eye contact & seems to know who is gonna fawn over her-& when they make contact back--then 'flop' she goes down for a belly rub. It's great with kids, but I worry about the submissiveness.

The part I'm more concerned about is if Tessa is doing this belly up for a rub thing out of stress & feeling intimidated--the submissive posture. It doesn't seem she is stressed, she WANTS the attention, she does seek it out. The part I'm confused about is that I've always been taught a pooch going belly up is always a submissive sign & I do not want Tessa feeling she MUST be submissive to anyone who will give her a pet. She's never been in a situation where she wasn't getting fawned over though, she expects it.

And to follow up on the kid who was thrown over the hillside-It was one of the neighborhood kids, a 16 yr old boy, I do not know him other than in passing. he & Tessa have met only in passing.
He was beaten up & thrown over the hillside, & was laying there for 30 hours. I did not see him or know he was there. Tessa was so difficult on the trail that day it was crazy. He was in the brush right where we enter the trails, unconscious. I found out about it that evening on the news after he crawled out of the brush & up the hill & the police were called & they showed where he was on the news, 2 days later--he crawled up just 2 hours after I returned home with Tessa. I stay off the trails by myself now.
 
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ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Thats defiently an alert posture, whether she'll ever take it further only experience will tell (and hopefully you'll never have to find out).

I'll admit she's never come accross as an especially dominent dog, but I'd not worry about rolling over for belly rubs, THAT sounds like she's found a good thing and is demanding more!
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Had an odd event the evening of 10/17--on a night walk.

I think Tessa gets conflicted about the guarding thing, like she wants to but rethinks, I dunno.

Anyway, we went out about 9-10 pm up to the unofficial off leash field. It's at the top of a mountain, & is mostly tall fenced, a football sized field (with a full city view)located on a plateau on top of the mountain.
I took a glow in the dark Frisbee, wanted to see if she'd fetch it--never tried Frisbee with her.

Anyway, being on top of a mountain, an odd gust took the Frisbee way over the fence & down the hill onto the trails.
It was night & I was by myself, I snapped up her leash & we walked out of the field & started down the trail so I could get the Frisbee.
This is something I never do, but I wanted the Frisbee.
Tessa took on a whole different posture & wanted to keep circling me, & was standing super tall, & every sound was a freeze type of thing & it was hard with her odd movements & having her on a leash.
About 5 min into this trek onto the trail, I thought better of it, Tessa was so alert that I got freaked out & a little scared of things that go 'bump' in the night, so I turned around.
Upon turning around Tessa was just behaving really odd-still that alert posture, & 1/2 like she was guarding my perimeter, & 1/2 like she wanted to stay stuck to my side. It was hard to move her, it was dark & I wanted to move towards the light... She's start moving then freeze, start moving & freeze. Then she didn't want me to move forward.
She locked in a posture, but totally silent. I looked where she was looking & up in the distance I could see someone at the top with a large pooch, but couldn't tell who it was, because I was now facing the lights at the top of the trail plateau & was partially blinded.

I kept pulling Tessa forward as best I could, because I didn't know if that dog was loose or who it was.

Ended up being the nice couple that has the great pyr & the huge malamute.

Getting Tessa up there, the last 50 feet was a hassel. Once we got up there all was of course just fine.
I explained I got a little too freaked to go all the way & get the Frisbee since Tessa started acting weird, & the husband offered to come down with me to get it.

Now Tessa has met them several times & always wants to check out the boys :)
We do minimal contact with the pooches, both boys are guardy, so we've never let them play, but they're all familiar with each other. Husband had wife hold the boys while we went down the trails to fetch the Frisbee.

Tessa was totally odd. She wanted to keep jumping up, feet off the ground, almost a lunge-- on the husband as soon as we got onto the trail.
She didn't bark or growl or make any sound.
The trail Y's off a bit & he took the upper & I took the lower, still in clear site of each other, & then Tessa went back to just doing her more normal thing, the stop/freeze but still trying to circle me.
I got the Frisbee & we headed back up. When we got back on the single trail, Tessa still tried to jump up on him & I had to keep her down until we got back up to the top.

Once at the top, she went into her full "Tessa mode"-- because she just loves this couple & they both just fawn over her & she always gets a belly rub from them...
& also we like to observe the pooches reactions because they are easing into a more familiar thing. We stood there and conversed for about 10-15 min & all was just as it always is.

I'd like to find a way to explore this more. The freeze, move forward, stop thing definitely looks guardy, but also, she'll run forward, freeze, run back circle me-freeze & once at my side sometimes doesn't want to move forward, & maybe she is scared?
Since I have her on a leash, I've not tried moving forward without her, it's always me pulling her, & she doesn't budge much LOL so I don't know how she'd be if I just kept moving.
Also, the super silent thing-I don't know what to make of it. A warning bark would let me know more, but she goes dead silent.

Like I said before, Tessa only barks when she wants back into the house if she is in the yard--& that barking can be incessant-I put her out to take a shower, & after less than 5 min, she stands at the door & just keeps barking the same bark until I let her in. So she definitely barks-but has never barked at anything specific, except every once in a while she will bark at a toy if she cannot get it out from under the bed.
So she barks for "let me in" & "get my toy"--never barked to be let outside, which was a PITA with housebreaking--

She has also NEVER barked at another dog, no matter how crazy they are barking at her, never barked on a walk or during playing with another pooch, child/adult or anything else. She stands silent. If she *really* wants to play I might get a slight wine--that's it.

LOL, I had even tried relentlessly to teach Tessa "speak"--to no avail--she just would not do it--no matter how much she wanted the treat--I couldn't even get a huff 1/2 bark, or even a whine or a whice or noise out of her--& gave up when she was about 7.5 months old--never met a pooch who wouldn't "speak" LOL

Any clue what is up with the silent thing?
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Some TMs, and LGDs are quite vocal in their guarding, but some aren't. INSIDE the house Apollo will very vocally warn off and alert, but outside, espcially off the property he's much quieter about it. And no, he doesn't vocalize to tell us he needs to potty either!

The circle you behavior: you are her duty. Her "job" is to make sure you're safe so she's circling you to check you and your permineter. Although TMs are generally more wider ranging from their duty than many LGDs they still aren't willing to go far. Is there probly fear in the equation? Yah, so you're likely correct in saying that she's scared, but she's also working it to guard you.
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Well, with all of the socializing, Tessa's experience with people has been all positive & mushy from both sides LOL.

The few people that come to my home have a key & let themselves in, so there's been no real door knocking. & it's the same people always.
She listens when the mail lady comes, silent & still, then goes back to whatever she was doing, even though every dog in the neighborhood is sounding off.

How do I test, or rather explore the guarding end in a safe way?

I think Tessa feels barking is what the other dogs do...If I could teach her to speak, I think I could teach her to 'woof' at the door...but I can't get her to do it.
Maybe I can find someone with a good pooch to come over & show her--I think if she saw an actual pooch getting rewarded for barking at a knock at the door she would have an "ah ha!" moment--
LOL I've tried barking at the door myself--tried everything--just to get her to speak. I am met with a look of "what's wrong with you"--& the girl upstairs probably wonders why I was barking...



She has a good bark--not huge, but strong enough that if she would woof when someone knocked, they'd know she wasn't a shitzu lol.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Hm, there are shutzhund and protection trainers who will sometimes "test" a dog (usually by simulating an attack on you) the problem is that (especially for guardian breeds) the INTENT of the attacker can count and so result in a lack of response.

Possibly by setting up more senerios like that night? Though YOUR nerves likely added to it, so I'm not sure how to set it up.....
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

LOL--my nerves got tweaked because she got so alert...
I'd have just went & got the damn Frisbee if she had acted normal-it was in reality only a 5 min trek down the hill--but with all of her caution & resistance, I didn't make it but 1/4 way there. She'd been on that trail 100's of times-but never in the dark.
 

broccolini

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Some TMs, and LGDs are quite vocal in their guarding, but some aren't. INSIDE the house Apollo will very vocally warn off and alert, but outside, espcially off the property he's much quieter about it.

Athena barked for about three hours the other night because she saw a raccoon on the porch.

I envy Tess's quietness. ;)
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

LOL--I know you both have said that before about excessive barking with TM's--

...And so I did not EVER encourage Tessa's barking-I was very careful not to-for the 1st 8 months...
--if she was barking to get in, I would not even budge & would wait until she was fully quiet & layed down.
Tessa can just bark at the door for an hour straight without issue. She just looks at the door & barks.

I have dogs on both side of my yard--they bark like crazy at everything-Tessa, nope, & to be honest, I think she thinks those dogs are guarding her yard from both sides LOL.
And, she's probably right-2 weimereiners on 1 side & a pitbull on the other, she feels safe in the yard.
Did not even bark when she saw the possum through the sliding glass door--which scared the shit out of me!!!! I saw a shadow of it moving through the curtain & there was Tessa, face to the glass, drooling, & wanting out, & still wouldn't bark-- Cats were berzerking.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

I used to have a video of Apollo barking at nothing, lost it the last time my computer crashed. The power had gone out, and he'd apparently been thrown off by that. And just kept barking and barking....I took him out to check the yard I don't know how many times, and he'd get outside and go "oh, never mind, nothing here", get back inside, and five minutes later be barking again!
 

broccolini

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Athena is barking right now.

Every night since the Raccoon Incident(tm), she will start barking at the memory of the raccoon.
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Ok, well, maybe I just won't teach her to speak (as if I have a choice in this matter?!)

--My 'theory' was if I can teach her to speak, I can then teach her to stop...but yes, anything she gets focused on seems to get carried to the Nth degree, so...maybe I'll appreciate my silence--

We can sit in the woods & watch critters--& if I saw "sshhhhh" Tessa will stop panting & breathe through her nose the entire time.
Her ability to be 'stealthy' is quite amazing to me -stealthy meaning quiet, because she's still a clumsy pup lol hopefully grace will follow at some time in the future.
 
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