To Harness or not to Harness?

[Miss_Critterized]

Hi everyone

How are you all? Mr Alvar is getting much bigger now and had almost out grown his harness that we have been using to help with training, walking and going for car trips. He actually started to bring his harness to me after his breaky and morning cuddle time Anyway the other day his sister and him were rough housing it in the park and his sister some how managed to snap his harness. So now I'm starting to look at new types of harness for him, one that will fit him from now till he is full grown. I was talking to someone who shows Neo's and she said I shouldn't get him harness cause he will use it to pull away from me when we walk. I find at this point it helps me to walk him, he gets very excited when he sees other dogs and wants to play with every dog he meets. He walks wonderful next to me till we see a dog and then he pulls or rolls or jumps. I find when he had the harness on I could hold the lead with one hand and the harness with the other and get him to settle and listen to me, the few times I have tried to walk him since his harness broke has been hard as I can't get a good hold of him. My friend said he will get use to it and suggested I get a dog wisper lead (I can't think of his name but he is the guy on TV), so I got the lead and it is good, but its thin and when he pulls or jumps I'm afraid it will snap on me and I'm also afraid it is choking him.

My friend said to get him around other dogs and he will get over the novalty of other dogs and lose interest in trying to play with every dog he sees. He gets to play with his sister every second day to every day, he also has 2 other dogs in our street that he plays with frequently. I have tried to get him around as many other dogs as I can as often as I can. But he still wants to play with every dog he sees. When we walk an I see a dog ahead I make Alvar sit and get him to watch, this works till they get close to us then he starts bouncing around. I try to get him to sit again till the dog passes, I use to keep walking and try and get him to ignor other dogs but that would result in me having to try and drag him and then he would drop and roll pulling the lead from my hand and I would have to chase him. So the making him sit works better then that but It would be good to just walk without stopping.

So the question is do I harness him again or not? If I do harness him again, what is a good harness to get? If I dont go with a harness do I stick with the lead I just got him or is there a better one I can get that will work better?

Thank you in advance for any advice or tips you can give

 

[Jakesmum]

I use a harness with my 10 1/2 month old BM. I tried using a collar and he would just lay down and not move or pull and choke himself, with the harness I can actually shift him onto his legs if he sits or lays down and he started to walk immediately with me when I started using it, and I can also grab it like a handle to help guide him out of my truck. The harness I use is a two point harness and my leash has a clasp on either end, one is attached on his chest and the other on his back, I find I have so much control if he does start to act up and it's easy to keep him by my side when we are walking. 99% of the time he is really good on our walks, he will see other dogs and not pull or bark, but if he knows he is going to get to play or I stop to greet someone with another dog he will pull and then I just have to grab the back of the harness and I can hold him down. I can also get him moving again when he stops to sniff at something and digs his heels in (he's 130 pounds now and when he digs in it can be like moving a brick wall)

Also when we first got our pup my husband had his mind set that the choke collar was the way to go with a dog for training, walking etc, when I brought hom the harness he looked at me like I was crazy, but since he has seen how well it has worked he has turned his thinking around and has agreed with me that the harness is the way to go for our dog.

Everyone will have a preference as to what works for them, but I think it's whatever will work for your dog is the way to go.

P.S. The Dog Whisperer is Cesar Milan.

 

[CowboyBebop]

As far as the gentle lead goes, it isn't choking him if it is on correctly. The clasp actually controls the muzzle of the dog and it is based on the same principal as a halter for a horse. The clasp that goes around the base of the skull helps stabilize the muzzle portion of the lead. You do have to be a bit careful on the gentle lead if it is on too tight as it CAN keep the dog from opening their mouth wide enough to pant but that is mentioned in the instructions. Castle hated his and would roll and scratch at it when he wore his. We now use a slip lead. From what I hear it is what volunteers at the SPCA are required to use on dogs when they are walked and it is what is used in the show ring also. If you’re overly concerned about the dog choking then I would not recommend the slip lead. Stick with the gentle lead.

 

[mmyrto]

I tried the Cesar milan choke collar but did not work for me. If we were walking and there were no distractions all good as soon as she saw a bird or another dog she got excited and choked herself. I also tried the gentle lead she refused to walk at all she just crawled rubbing her face on the floor tryng to get it off. So then i bought a harness that hooks in front not back, it is called the sensation harness and it works best off all (for me). I am hoping when she is older and after some obedience trainingi will be able to walk her with a plain collar

 

[Marrowshard]

Oscar just plain pulled right through the harness we tried to use on him, and we now use a combination of a prong and a dominant dog lead. For me, it's absolutely unacceptable for a 140# dog to try and yank me anywhere regardless of whether he's going to say hello, or go play, or try to attack. I work hard on my own and with a trainer to keep Oscar from assuming he can do as he pleases but it's a lot of work on an adopted dog who apparently grew up getting his own way.
Harnesses can work, but quite honestly if he's still pulling and trying to get to other dogs/people/etc. with one on (again, regardless of motivation), it's not working. Just like if you're using a choke and the dog's cutting off his own air pulling through it, it's either not working for that dog or it's being used wrong. The idea of special collars/leads and other training implements isn't to make holding onto a lunging dog easier, it's to help stop the behavior from occuring in the first place. As my trainer put it when I hesitated to use a dominant dog lead: "You cannot kill this dog. He's in distress because you're stopping him from doing what he wants to do and it hurts, but you won't kill him."
Whatever works for your dog is going to be best, but it has to work, and not just function as an extra handle.

~Marrow

 

[ruthcatrin]

We use a prong (pinch) collar on Apollo in some situations as he still gets overly excited on occasion. We tried the gentle leader head halter on him and he went flat and refused to budge, it also was rubbing a spot on his nose and it didn't take me long to realize that if he hit the end of the lead hard with it on he was going to injure his neck. The prong collar works, he won't choke himself on it, or pull my arm out of its socket. No harness for him, he's been taught a harness means PULL.

 

[Miss_Critterized]

Thank you everyone if it's not to much trouble could you please fill me in on how the prong collar works? There is a movement that the animal welfare leage are trying to have passed in my state banning them. I was just doing some reading on them then and I'm reading lots of pros and cons with them. So could I please get you personal opinion on them? Most of what I have read says that they are cruel and harm the dog, but others say that's only if it's used wrong. I can't imagine any of you doing anything that could hurt your fur kids, which is making me think of getting one for Alvar. But I want to make sure I'm awear of how it works before I pay out money and end up hurting him.

My major issue with the slip lead is that inorder to get it to set just below his ears where I was told to put it, it has to be insanely tight to stay there. So the slightest pull and he is gasping, if it's not that tight it begins to drop lower on his neck as he walks so when he pulls he ends up gasping. From what I have read is that the prong collar works best if another collar is also used so if he happens to get out of the prong collar he is unable to run off. It is also meant to sit up under the ears and applies pressure to the neck if he pulls. Is this right? Have you had any issues with the collars percing the skin? How do you get it to stay under the ears without it slipping down the neck?

Sorry for all the questions. It's just I love taking him for an afternoon walk and I want to make it as enjoyable for both of us. Thank you all again for your help

 

[chuckorlando]

I love my harness. But I would venture to say Kona aint as bad on one as some of ya'lls dogs. And frankly I'm kinda scared of prongs. When she gets motivated, it's usually REALLY motivated. And I love haveing the handle to hold when close to folks being anything can be a precieved threat at any time and I dont like her having 3ft run when that close. She is good on a thick collar untill That motivation kicks in. Seems her neck is so big you almost have to choke her to get one to not slip over her head.

I do need a new option already though. As Budda's harness has been adjusted as big as it gets and it's tight as all get out on her already.

Had a client with a barking cat on a gentle lead yesterday. It seems from just looking at it, that it could hurt the dogs neck by pulling the head sidways? She said it works great. So I could just be over thinking it.

I really like some of the harnesses and muzzles on that mastiff site. What exactly would I measure before buying a leather muzzle?

 

[musicdeb]

I love my harness. But I would venture to say Kona aint as bad on one as some of ya'lls dogs. And frankly I'm kinda scared of prongs. When she gets motivated, it's usually REALLY motivated. And I love haveing the handle to hold when close to folks being anything can be a precieved threat at any time and I dont like her having 3ft run when that close. She is good on a thick collar untill That motivation kicks in. Seems her neck is so big you almost have to choke her to get one to not slip over her head.

I do need a new option already though. As Budda's harness has been adjusted as big as it gets and it's tight as all get out on her already.

Had a client with a barking cat on a gentle lead yesterday. It seems from just looking at it, that it could hurt the dogs neck by pulling the head sidways? She said it works great. So I could just be over thinking it.

I really like some of the harnesses and muzzles on that mastiff site. What exactly would I measure before buying a leather muzzle?

Chuck, I ordered Titan's leather basket muzzle here. They provide a great measurement sheet. http://www.all-about-mastiff-dog-breed.com/

 

[ruthcatrin]

Thank you everyone if it's not to much trouble could you please fill me in on how the prong collar works? There is a movement that the animal welfare leage are trying to have passed in my state banning them. I was just doing some reading on them then and I'm reading lots of pros and cons with them. So could I please get you personal opinion on them? Most of what I have read says that they are cruel and harm the dog, but others say that's only if it's used wrong. I can't imagine any of you doing anything that could hurt your fur kids, which is making me think of getting one for Alvar. But I want to make sure I'm awear of how it works before I pay out money and end up hurting him...............From what I have read is that the prong collar works best if another collar is also used so if he happens to get out of the prong collar he is unable to run off. It is also meant to sit up under the ears and applies pressure to the neck if he pulls. Is this right? Have you had any issues with the collars percing the skin? How do you get it to stay under the ears without it slipping down the neck?

Here's the Learburg page on prongs: http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm?set=1 but I have to admit Apollo's doesn't fit like that. I'm not sure if its his coat, or the fact that he's young so his neck is still very slender (he's not bulked out AT ALL yet), but it WILL NOT stay up around his ears no matter what I do (I had a trainer help me cause I was sure I was doing something wrong, I wasn't). On the other hand its doing its job even when its lower on the neck so I'll take it.

Ideally they fit snug, but not tight, kinda like a snug choker necklace you might wear. You do want to check the ends of the prongs when you buy it, every now and then you'll find one with a rough or slightly pointed end where manufactor went slight weird (don't buy that one), but the ends aren't sharp AT ALL, they're supposed to be rounded completely so they don't damage the skin. You can also get plastic tip guards for the ends of the prongs if you think they might irritate the skin. When the dog pulls against it they push individual pressure points against the neck, this is VERY uncomfortable, but not painful (using the balls of your fingers press against your throat or neck, not fun, but not painful). You can also sometimes find plastic versions of the collars which some people think are safer. I'd recommend one that comes with a quick release, as these are WAY easier to get on or off. You may want to consider ordering a Herm Springer one as they have a better reputation for staying on, however I bought mine at Petsmart and its never popped off. If you want to use a 2nd collar to be safe rather than a 2nd leash get one of those leash splitters where you can attach to dogs to one leash, that way you only have to manage one leash and still be attached to both collars. I'll see if I can remember to get a picture of Apollo with his today. Thanks to a certain set of neighbors I'm having to use it in MY OWN FRICKING YARD DAMMIT (sorry).

With a standard buckle collar, or a martingale collar, Apollo used to pull till he was literally choking himself on it. After some talk with his breeder and a local trainer we decided to give the prong collar a try. I can now hold him, no matter how excited he is, without worrying about him choking himself on it because he STOPS. Even when he hits the end of the lead with some speed he stops before it does damage. You do want to keep the lead a bit shorter when using it, so the dog can't build up TO much speed before hitting the end of the lead, but honestly the prong collar has made all the difference.

The animal welfare people need to go climb a tree, its HARD to setup a prong collar so wrong that you'll hurt your dog with it. Maybe if you sharpened the prongs? They LOOK evil and painfull and bad, they aren't, the worse that usually happens is its to loose and doesn't work properly. ANd they're WAY better than letting a dog choke on a choke chain, or buckle collar, and way better than damaging his neck with a head halter.

Apollo HATED the head halter when I tried it. By the 3rd or 4th day as soon as I'd put it on him he'd just go flat and refuse to budge. With the prong collar as soon as I get it out he gets excited, he knows that if I'm getting out the prong collar there's a higher chance I'm taking him somewhere.

Had a client with a barking cat on a gentle lead yesterday. It seems from just looking at it, that it could hurt the dogs neck by pulling the head sidways? She said it works great. So I could just be over thinking it.

Honestly that was my biggest concern with the head halter gentle leader, and the head halters sold under other names. The dog hits the end of that leash at speed and his head is going to get whipped around. They're probly pretty decent for dogs that JUST PULL while they're on the lead, but for dogs who don't so much PULL as REACT I don't think they're a good tool personally. I know a trainer who uses one on her Akita, not because he pulls, but because he's one of those dogs who people will just walk up to and try to handle and hug and pet and...yah, she wants that extra little bit of control over his head in public, and I think thats a decent use for one.

 

[Miss_Critterized]

Thank you for your reply its helped a lot. I had a look around at some prong collars today but will have to wait till my pay week to get one for him. I decided to try a choke chain on him today and he didn't do to bad with it, much better then I thought he would, he was a tad bit easier to handle when we crossed other dogs. I have to buy a better lead to use as the one I'm using is thin and not comfortable in my hand. so now to find a lead that works and hope that he responds to the prong collar when I get it.

 

[Robtouw]

In 1994 I was involved in a motor vehicle accident while out of state. A drunk driver struck my Montero and we were knocked off of an overpass, details are unimportant....point---- my rottweiler and my german shepherd were both wearing pronged collars and were thrown from the vehicle one on the overpass, one below it. My shepherd's pronged collar was imbedded around his neck from the impact and had to be surgically removed. I will never use one again! It was a horrible mess and he was in total agony! While it seemed to be working to help discipline him at the time, he was pretty young and we were having training issues, it turned out to be a nightmare in this situation. Pronged collars for me are a never, never, never!

 

[ruthcatrin]

why in the world would you leave prong collars on them in the first place?? thats like leaving a choke chain on the dog....