Vet recommends switching back to kibble.

[BAMCB]

We started raw feeding 2 weeks ago. The first week Sonny did not grow much(same as when on kibble) but the second week gained 3.5lbs! During this growth his carpus became enlarged. Her thinking is this did not arise until feeding raw and is concerned I am not fulfilling the vitamin D requirements and it's too hard to ensure a correct phosphorus/calcium ratio that a growing puppy needs. She is not opposed to raw feeding and supports keeping my 8yr old dog on it. Just wants him on kibble until he is mostly done growing, then switch him back to raw. Problem is, with the research we have done and the response we've received from the dogs encourages our thinking that raw is superior to kibble. Could this diet be filling the nutritional needs that he may have been lacking? Could, being an orphan, his formula and kibble was not meeting those needs and he is now playing catch up? I am doing the 80/10/5/5 ratios with a scale so fairly close. His poops have been very good and he has filled out nicely, vet mentioned his body mass and health was great just concerned over the rapid growth and enlarged carpus which can signal a nutritional deficiency. Any suggestions or personal stories you can share would be helpful with our decision.

 

[xcrazydx]

Raw will always be superior if you do it right. You could supplement vitamins if something is lacking

 

[Oscar'sMom]

I'm going to leave this to the experienced folks...but I will put my two cents in. My bf had a vet in his chair yesterday...he was telling him about our EM. He asked what we fed. Addison said..oh we feed TOTW but are thinking of switching to raw. He was appalled haha...he was an older guy so maybe that has something to do with it. He said we should switch to science diet, pro plan or eukenuba (sp?). Of course he did. Imo those foods are junk. He told my bf that TOTW doesn't do any testing and that we shouldn't get hung up on the no grains and blah blah. Good thing I wasn't there. I think you are doing a great job and maybe look at what you're feeding to make sure you're getting the right nutrients. I think people don't like what's different and no matter if they don't not support raw...it's something they probably don't see a bunch. I don't mean to knock vets...but sometimes nutrition education seems to be lacking.

 

[angelbears]

Bummer! I have never switched a puppy to raw. I just haven't had any since I started raw. I do know that there are breeders out there that wean straight to raw and never have a problem. My only question about what the vet said, would a deficiency show up that quickly? I don't know!?!

Here is a link to a breeder of EM's that used to contribute here. She weans here pups straight to raw.

Naturally Raised Mastiffs - Tailcreek Mastiffs

BTW, I have been talking with a breeder that I am thinking of getting an EM puppy from. She is excited that we feed raw and said there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[BAMCB]

Hubs and I are happy with the choice to feed raw. We were hesitant to switch back to kibble and have decided to stick with the raw. I know raw whole eggs(from a local farmer)and sardines are good for vit D as well as healthy fats, does anyone here feed them?
I agree with most vets just sticking with what they know.
And yes, we were also wondering how a deficiency could be so devastating in 1 week 5 days especially with me weighing every single meal while also calculating the bone % of the meats I was feeding. We know that he was lacking in some vital nutrients when we picked him up(super dehydrated and constipated) and also only receiving formula was not the best start in life.
We will continue with the raw so please be patient as I'm sure I will have many more questions! lol
Has anyone ever considered writing down what the prepare for a day's feeding? Or even better, a full weeks? This week I have multiple chicken legs, which is his main source for bone, lamb meat, lamb tongue, chicken meat, beef heart(makes up less than 20% of meats due to richness), pork meat, pork tongue and a few pork rib tips(what was left over from Ava's, that is her bone source),organic beef liver and chicken feet. They had organs the first week from the whole organic chickens I had but I am still sourcing organic organ meat. Of course all weighed out. Would anyone be open to letting me know what theirs look like?

 

[angelbears]

I did early on but I really haven't kept track for the last couple of years.

PM, DennasMom. She is very sweet and helpful. I believe at one time she had put a spreadsheet together. I'm sure she would be more than happy to share.

The link below may be helpful too.


Bone And Food Values For Raw Feeding Dogs - Mastiff Forum

 

[BAMCB]

Thank you angelbears. The spreadsheet is what I am using for my bone ratios, it is super helpful! It's hard to decipher with all the opposing views on the internet. It's nice to have one place to go where the same people are able to give advice and guidance. Thanks so much!

 

[Liz_M]

I've raised four puppies on raw from 8 weeks old over the last 16 years....all healthy and sound. Two Rottweilers, a Lab and JRTx. And my next pup, due to come home in late July, will be an EM. The Lab and the JRTx are middle-aged now and doing great. The two Rottweilers are (sadly) passed on but not from anything diet-related. I've also had several already-adult dogs who thrived on raw. I do keep kibble on hand for busy days or whatever.

So I'm very relaxed about it and don't stress about ratios and stuff much anymore but with the last Rottie pup, and with so much "prepared raw" commercially available I fed him mostly whole/ground commercial raw for the first year or so because I was concerned about him getting correct nutrition. Meaning, basically, entire animals ground up, sometimes with skin and fur included. Chicken, goat, rabbit, beaver, etc. You want a perfect ratio as nature intended, that's pretty much it! This is very expensive though.

As adults my dogs get lots of chicken quarters and when they go on sale for .39/lb I stock up. Or when whole chickens go on sale, ditto. And beef liver, kidney and heart. And whatever pork is available when it goes on sale. Green or white tripe too. Sometimes I luck out with deer from hunters I know, or goat or duck or mutton. Entire cow heads, deer entrails and other nasty bits from a local processor, even a freezer load of dressed squirrels once. Also appropriate "people food" left-overs and when I buy kibble, since they do eat a lot of chicken, I get kibble with no-chicken ingredients.

 

[NYDDB]

I weaned my pup straight onto raw with no issues, although I will also admit to starting off with the pre-ground frozen blends...until they became way too expensive to feed.

I am not convinced that whatever issue popped up is directly related to raw feeding; it simply doesn't make sense...

Remember, "balance over time"--- I would not make myself crazy with EXACT ratios at every single meal. Wild and naturally raw fed canines throughout history have done fine on what they could kill or scavenge...

I'm happy that you're going to stick with raw- lucky pup!

 

[DennasMom]

AB - thank you for the nice words!!! I do try!

I also wonder how a diet issue could crop up so fast, other than, he was deficient, and now he's getting LOTS of good stuff... so things are just still getting aligned with his new reality. I'd give it a few more weeks at least and then see if things balance out on the carpal issue.

Sounds like you've got a great plan - and experience with the older dog, so my guess is you know what you're doing, and doing a good job... it's just the puppy going through some growing pains with all the changes in his life, making up for a lackluster beginning... but, that's just my opinion...

The only thing I didn't see you write was any organ other than liver. Even if non-organic, I think adding in some kidney would be beneficial. Chicken feet are also good raw materials for growing (and senior) joints.

If you are concerned, you can always grab some of the pre-made AAFCO certified "complete & balanced" raw tubes-o-food at the local pet shop, and give those as "supplements"... maybe as 1/3-1/2 the diet for a few weeks to fill in any holes you might be missing (not that I think you have any, though). I like Bravo and Red Rock brands (can't remember if they're AAFCO certified, though... but good for variety, anyway).


Here's a note I posted a while back about my weekly plan (updated to what's currently in the fridge)... I do use a spreadsheet still.

I put together a week's worth of food at a time to keep ready to feed - that way I can keep the meals balanced, but have leeway to mix things up during the week (feed more/less some days, etc.). One week's worth of food is about 21lbs total (barely 2% of her current adult weight of 155lbs). Based on the 80/10/5/5 model (meat/bone/liver/other organ) that becomes:

5 lbs boneless pork (shoulder)

2.6 lbs sardines (~5oz each, fresh-frozen whole fish)

2 lbs pork ribs

5 lbs ground beef (includes 10% bone, ground in)

1 lbs lamb liver

1 lbs pork kidney (soon to be bison)

4 lbs green tripe (ground)

Plus 2-3 eggs and ~1lb of frozen veggies (~3-4oz with breakfast: broccoli, squash & carrots)

If you do the math, this diet is 82.4%/6.6%/5.5%/5.5% on the numbers. If I regularly give Denna 10% bone, she gets constipated... the veggies also help keep her poops softer and bulkier, which aids her anal gland issues (no veggies for a while, and she starts boot-scoot'n).

Denna does get a 1/2 scoop of Nupro Silver with breakfast - it has enzymes and probiotics, but also some added calcium, which you don't want until the puppy is well older than 6 months (best to wait for calcium supplements until they're over 18 months, or just avoid them all together... we don't use the Nupro for calcium, but I like all the other stuff it has in it).

About the calcium/phosphorus ratio - real, raw bone is in the proper ratio. period. So, as long as you avoid adding extra calcium (i.e. supplements or over-doing the egg shell), you should be fine.

Vitamin D... liver, kidney, egg and sardines should cover that need.

Vitamin D in food: Food Sources of Vitamin D for Bone Nutrition


AAFCO food standards: Dog Food Standards by the AAFCO
(note, nutrients are %/IU per pound [or kg] of the FOOD, not the dog].

DMikeM has some experiences with growing imbalances... he used a supplement that included vitamin C. Vitamin C is good for all sorts of ailments, so I don't think it would hurt to include that for a bit. You might do your own research to make sure that's right for you and your puppy, though.

The only other thing I can think of, is to not try and "overcome" his past deficiencies with over-feeding him goodness, now. I'd keep him very lean and try to keep his growth as slow and steady as you can.

Some other great articles and papers on feeding the big dogs can be found in links here: Topic: Large and Giant Breed Puppy Nutrition


As for your vet - mine would have been right there saying the same thing. A home-prepared diet is an "unknown". Kibble is a known quantity... if there are any questions about nutrition, I would expect a vet to say go back to kibble... "just in case". But, I think you're doing the best for your puppy, and am glad you're going to stick with raw!

 

[BAMCB]

Thank you DennasMom!! That is exactly what I am looking for. They do get chicken feet and I have pig feet also(though I have not given them one yet). I am confused about how to add these "extras" in. Same with bones. I will allow them to chew for a bit but not sure whether to add that in for part of their meals.
I think I may be too concerned about all organ meat being organic. I can source non organic tomorrow.
I am also wondering about eggs. When is a good time to start them? How do you calculate them into the meal, by weight? Should I remove the shell until he is done growing? I am trying to find sardines, they were $15 lb at our local store(I think that's a bit high).
I am going to grab some of the pre made food tomorrow as supplement until I feel I have a better balance and variety.
We really appreciate all the time and experience everyone shares thanks again.

 

[TricAP]

So glad to hear you are sticking with raw. IMO there is just too much processed junk in kibble. The more natural the better for human diets and our dogs. Vit D is fat soluble so there is no way there can be a deficiency as quickly as what you have been feeding raw. Vit D supplements can cause toxicity in dogs for that very reason.

Sorry but I would think about finding a vet that in more knowledgeable in pet nutrition. DennasMom gave you links to a couple of the same sights I was going to (Yes she is the BEST!) One of our dogs will eat the shells from eggs (Angus eats anything but green beans) and the other 2 won't - give it a try. I crush them with a work and mix into ground meat and that does help.

 

[BAMCB]

I am heading to Indianapolis today to pick up an order from My Carnivore Pet! I missed the delivery(3 blocks from my house nonetheless!) which came this past Sunday I have ordered 8lbs of whole ground up chicken and pork, 2lbs ground tripe, chopped mutton and whole fish(do not remember the species). I am planning to replace 50% of his meals with the whole ground animals and balancing the other 50% on my own. Am I correct in thinking the ground whole prey is a perfect ratio for one meal? Does this seem reasonable? I am hoping it meats his needs better and also easier for me to only have to calculate half the amount while I'm learning. I will not be ordering again until next delivery(July 25th) so are there any suggestions of other products I should grab today? Any favorite treats you can suggest?

 

[twood71]

I have not heard of a vet in our local area that agrees with RAW.

the 3 vets I have tried all had the same speech against RAW, it always started out "I understand you believe it's a better diet but parasites" -at that point I quit listening. Then they stand there with a brochure, lol

 

[BAMCB]

I have to say I really like my vet, for many reasons. I worked there(along with other clinics and vet tech school) and really agree with their minimalist approach. Plus, she encouraged me to stick with raw for the older one and to switch back to raw when Sonny was close to done growing. She is also good with my choice to delay neutering and agrees with the science behind it. I do not feel I need to do everything they suggest(hence the continuing with raw) and have also requested more than they felt was necessary. I like having a voice and also being listened to when I have a different approach it is ultimately my decision and they respect that.

 

[twood71]

I have to say I really like my vet, for many reasons. I worked there(along with other clinics and vet tech school) and really agree with their minimalist approach. Plus, she encouraged me to stick with raw for the older one and to switch back to raw when Sonny was close to done growing. She is also good with my choice to delay neutering and agrees with the science behind it. I do not feel I need to do everything they suggest(hence the continuing with raw) and have also requested more than they felt was necessary. I like having a voice and also being listened to when I have a different approach it is ultimately my decision and they respect that.

Nice that you have what you have with your vet.

I'm still finding a good one myself.

Back to your pup, you know the same thing can happen with Kibble. One of the Breeders we talked to about getting our first mastiff from (and we passed)talked about the levels and that even in kibble you have to watch rapid growth, because they grow so fast anyways. She was the one I first heard that she doesn't put her pups on puppy kibble, she goes straight to Adult kibble.

 

[Liz_M]

I have to say I really like my vet, for many reasons. I worked there(along with other clinics and vet tech school) and really agree with their minimalist approach. Plus, she encouraged me to stick with raw for the older one and to switch back to raw when Sonny was close to done growing. She is also good with my choice to delay neutering and agrees with the science behind it. I do not feel I need to do everything they suggest(hence the continuing with raw) and have also requested more than they felt was necessary. I like having a voice and also being listened to when I have a different approach it is ultimately my decision and they respect that.

Sounds like a great vet, and my primary vet is just like that. He is not "holistic" or woo; he's just seen so many raw-fed clients over the last 15+ years that he acknowleges that it is a superior diet, at least when people know what they're doing. My "secondary" vet that I use for rescue stuff mainly because they give a big discount is big on Royal Canin because, duh, they sell it but I have had my dogs in there for routine stuff like HW testing and they note the clean teeth on older dogs and general condition and when asked about diet I say I feed mostly raw and they have learned to shut up with me.

But vets are trained in the scientific method and there simply are no (that I am aware of) longitudinal impartial studies on feeding raw v kibble. So I do understand the reticence from a vet's perspective. The whole raw thing just falls outside of their experience and training.

Oh, and I should add, my first Rottweiler puppy was in 1986. And his vet at the time suggested calcium supplements to his kibble, and he was the only Rottie pup I've had in the years since who went through pano. Probably because of the vet's misinformed advice and in hindsight I realised vets are not all-knowing, and sometimes they can be downright ignorant!

 

[BAMCB]

Another question I am offering a variety of meats and organs but really like the idea of sticking with chicken backs and pork rib tips for the bone. I know he also will chew some cartilage and bone off of his treat bones before I catch it and take away. Is this sufficient in the bone area? I'm assuming yes but want to be certain. I feel comfortable because he eats them easily which eases my fear of choking or swallowing too big of chunk. May not need to worry but I do. I think I finally have a system down and his poo is looking good! He gets the bought, whole ground for morning feed. His bone with some meat in the afternoon and then meat and organs in the evening. It's been a week now and I'm happy with the results. I have also found a routine for preparing a weeks work of meals though I feel it's a waste of sandwich baggies. But Tupperware containers are too bulky and will take too much space in the fridge. I like having each meal ready to just put in the bowl, anyone else do it this way and found a less wasteful means of storing?
AND.......Ava has lost 1.5lbs!!!! She looks better! She feels better! She jumps better! She has more stamina! She is patient when getting her food! She begs less! Omg! It's awesome to see this transformation!! Only 1/2 pound more and the vet and I will reassess if we want to go lower. I am so very happy to have switched to raw and thanks to everyone here who has helped guide and teach. Your patience and willingness is really appreciated and Ava thanks you for getting her health back on track.

 

[BAMCB]

I think a lot of naysayers(Umm....family!) are singing a different tune after seeing Ava's transformations. I love when that happens hahaha

 

[NYDDB]

Well done! The transformation is wonderful, but not surprising; I really believe raw is the most appropriate food to feed our canines, no doubt in my mind.

You will notice the teeth become cleaner, as well as overall body condition and health improve. Yes, it's a bit more work than pouring kibble into a bowl, but for me, it's worth the extra time. Plus, finding great meat deals is kinda fun, LOL.