Acceptable behaviour in mastiff breeds

[allsierra123]

Hopefully I don't get barred from the group. Wow GlasgowDogTrainer! I realize you Scotts "tamed" the terrorist who bombed the Pan Am flight over Lockerbie and sent him back to Libya but that doesn't mean you can also turn a CC, Presa, or a Fila into a lab or a golden. We're talking DNA here. And let's say you changed the behavior of a CC, Presa, BB, Fila, etc., and he behaved like a lab you would actually have a very unstable dog.

Unstable and dangerous you would never know when that training will fail.

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk 2

 

[Hoffm]

If I'm walking down the street with a bunch of drunk people around me I would expect my mastiff to look extra alert and unapprochable. I wouldn't expect my dog to lunge but I would like my dog to bark if a drunk man was approaching us. I am a woman and would appreciate the type of dog that would ward off drunk men. That's just me.

 

[Jadotha]

Hoffm, I agree! My seven mth old EM is friendly and outgoing with kids. With adults he has been introduced to, he is friendly and likes to greet them. With strangers he is relaxed but watchful -- unless an approaching person is doing something, or moving in a way that looks 'suspicious' to him. Then he will go on total alert and do a 'risk assessment'. If decides it's ok, or I reassure him, we move right along; if he decides there really is something to worry about he will go on full alert: staring, positioning himself between me and the person(s) and puffing himself up, until we have passed them. This is exactly the kind of behaviour I wanted and expected from a guardian...... and I will go so far as to say, if someone tried to grab or assault me, I WOULD expect him to lunge, or physically intervene in some way.

 

[dogman#1]

Make sure you actually put that to a test, dont leave it to chance only to find out he wont physically intervene. If you test him and he passes then great but if he doesnt pass then at least you know you need a back up plan.

 

[Cody]

Make sure you actually put that to a test, dont leave it to chance only to find out he wont physically intervene. If you test him and he passes then great but if he doesnt pass then at least you know you need a back up plan.

True enough.
Luckily for the most part, here in Canada at least, not many are going to risk being the one that is tested on.
The display is enough to make them move onto the next.
Unless they are armed, willing to shoot the dog, in which case you screwed as it is likely personal...

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Make sure you actually put that to a test, dont leave it to chance only to find out he wont physically intervene. If you test him and he passes then great but if he doesnt pass then at least you know you need a back up plan.

I agree! Now that I know what Thor won't do....Now I need to start on Stone, he needs to do something right, lol

 

[excelrn]

Okay, I'm a bit late coming to this discussion, so I don't even know if anyone will see this (I was doing a search on something else, and this came up)

Neo: The Neapolitan Mastiff is steady and loyal to his owner, not aggressive or apt to bite without reason. As a protector of his property and owners, he is always watchful and does not relish intrusion by strangers into his personal space. His attitude is calm yet wary. In the show ring he is majestic and powerful, but not showy.

That is the Neo breed standard. I would like to tell you how the Mastiff uninitiated reads it as they are doing breed research into what type of dog is going to be a good fit: "not aggressive or apt to bite without reason"- won't take a lot of training to keep from biting others, as they naturally tend that way; "steady and loyal to his owner"- won't "bite the hand that feeds it" so to say; "calm yet wary"- needs socialization to not be wary around lots of new things. 1 out of 3 isn't so bad, right?

I am new to this forum, I found you as I sought help for my Neo pup that was not what I expected. (I am glad to say there is plenty of help here!) But all of you are reacting to the OP as long time Mastiff owners, or at least, those who have experience with Mastiffs. I have always thought that if there was an aggressive dog, it's because of training or neglect/abuse. I knew about breeds that have a natural rise in aggression as they hit adult age that you NEVER train aggressively as a pup if you want them around your kids, but breeds that have that as a desired trait? Didn't know that, didn't think that was possible. Just to clarify- what you are calling wariness/aversion towards strangers, I call aggression. Also, correct me if I'm way off on this, but how important are AKC standards to someone in Glasgow? I researched different breeder sites all over the states, looking for information about Mastiffs (turns out a lot of Mastiff breeders breed more than one type of Mastiff). I hit links from their sites, visited parent clubs, etc. Nowhere did I get some of the behaviour information that I got on this forum, and if I had found this forum first, I wouldn't have gotten a Neo, or probably any Mastiff.

Coming from that viewpoint, I think I understand what Glasgow is saying. It's what I'm counting on with Astrid. She's showing aggression as she's coming into the teens, but I'm not going to let her just get away with it because she's a Neo. I'm going to work with her so that she knows it's not acceptable behaviour. I'm going to continue to work on socializing so that there won't be many situations that she feels the need to be wary in. Do I expect her to act like a lab? I sincerely hope not, I stayed away from labs on purpose. My last pup was a St Bernard, very sociable, much more dignity than a goofy lab. I don't even expect her to act like a St Bernard. But I do want to see her grow in to the dog that I see hints of in her puppyhood. She will be a great dog one day, if we can give her the training she needs to learn to be that dog.

All that being said, maybe the standards need to be rewritten to be a bit more realistic....but that's probably a different thread....

Hhmmm...looking at the "topic review, newest first" before posting, I think I must've read only the first of several pages. Not going to rewrite, just please keep it in mind as you read. As I said, new to the forum, still getting the hang of everything.

---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 PM ----------

I have read almost all the posts and wondered if I should say anything. I have a beautiful Bullmastiff pup she is 5 1/2 months old. I did a lot of research before getting her I'm not looking for a lap dog even though she thinks she is at times, but I do want a dog that is well socialized that I can take out with me anywhere I go. I want a dog who will defend my home and family when needed, but who is good with children and other animals. I have made a point of bringing her on many outings and socializing her often. I can see both angles of the conversation and see nothing wrong with hearing both sides. I look forward to these forums for help as my baby grows.

I like this....this is kind of what I was trying to say, in part. Except I do want a lap dog, and Astrid's not so sure about the whole lap thing.

 

[excelrn]

I have read almost all the posts and wondered if I should say anything. I have a beautiful Bullmastiff pup she is 5 1/2 months old. I did a lot of research before getting her I'm not looking for a lap dog even though she thinks she is at times, but I do want a dog that is well socialized that I can take out with me anywhere I go. I want a dog who will defend my home and family when needed, but who is good with children and other animals. I have made a point of bringing her on many outings and socializing her often. I can see both angles of the conversation and see nothing wrong with hearing both sides. I look forward to these forums for help as my baby grows.

I like this....this is kind of what I was trying to say, in part. Except I do want a lap dog, and Astrid's not so sure about the whole lap thing.

 

[dpenning]

Be careful what you ask for. I always get the butt end of Daisy now because she thinks she is a 140 lb lap dog so she climbs over me on the couch so she can land her butt in my lap. Then she lies down and I'm stuck with the wrong end. <G>

I like this....this is kind of what I was trying to say, in part. Except I do want a lap dog, and Astrid's not so sure about the whole lap thing.

 

[angelbears]

She has a Bull Mastiff, in general a much softer temperament than a Neo. I would expect a Bull Mastiff to be more outgoing. I would not expect most Neo's to be.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Just to clarify- what you are calling wariness/aversion towards strangers, I call aggression.

Wariness and not wanting to have much to do with strangers is not aggression, and if you think it is you're going to continue to have problems with your dog that training will not solve, and you may want to consider that she will not work well in your home and accept that now instead of years of frustration down the road.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

She has a Bull Mastiff, in general a much softer temperament than a Neo. I would expect a Bull Mastiff to be more outgoing. I would not expect most Neo's to be.

:clap2:

Neos are not labs.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Wariness and not wanting to have much to do with strangers is not aggression, and if you think it is you're going to continue to have problems with your dog that training will not solve, and you may want to consider that she will not work well in your home and accept that now instead of years of frustration down the road.

I agree completely with this! If you did not want a dog that has aversion or wariness of strangers then you should have picked a different breed! We have enough problems in our breeds with people wanting softer temperament so just anyone can own them instead of perhaps choosing a breed that is better suited to what you wish as opposed to what is correct for the breed.

With the exception of a few of the breeds on here most of us have breeds that we have no issues taking out in public, who have that aversion/wariness of strangers and we prefer it. That is why we got the breed we did, we did not want a happy go lucky dog that anyone can approach and love on. I want a dog that is stable and confident to know when to perceive a threat and be able to react accordingly. I do not want a breed that is more concerned with how to get the most snuggles from every stranger it meets.

I would re-evaluate your dog and what you want from the dog and what you think that training is going to "fix" and ask if that is fair for you to ask of your dog. To be something they aren't? These are guardians and you want them to change to fit your lifestyle instead of getting a breed that would have been better suited to what you had envisioned.

Also please clarify why you think standards that portray our breed historically should be re-written? To make it acceptable to have a softer temperament? So our breeds can go the same way the rotties, dobermans, etc all have. I will thank you to kindly keep your mitts of our standards as I happen to think that what it describes is a beautiful majestic breed, I don't see it as a rough draft to make the breed better so everyone can have one.

 

[excelrn]

The first part of my post on this thread was to point out that people see/define things differently. Being aware of a moose up ahead on the path, and being on alert status (wariness) is great; lunging at a stranger, growling with teeth bared at a stranger (what I have seen some on this forum describe as wariness of strangers) is not great to me- it is aggression to me. Replace the word moose with stranger in the first part, and it is still okay, and I am now prepared for that (although if you've followed any of my posts on this forum, you'll know I didn't choose a guardian with a "guardian" in mind). Please don't ask me who defined wariness that way, it is the general concept that I've gotten as I've read the forum, and the language is probably more from this thread, since it's what I've been reading most recently.

At this time, Astrid has been widely socialized from the day I got her, until it got to be too cold to take her all the time. I took her everywhere. The biggest problem I have with her out in public is that she wants to play with other dogs that don't want to play with her, and she pulls at her leash and barks to get to them, which scares others, as she already sounds like a 200# dog. She has played very well with other dogs in puppy class, and has not shown aggression to others in public (I also don't let others approach her without permission and having her sit/down first, but not always successful with this, esp if another dog is around). The aggression problems that I've had have been about resource guarding, so far. I'm on watch for other behaviours, always. If you read all of that first post on this thread, you also read that I'm continuing to work with Astrid, because I know she is going to be a great dog! Our family experienced a trauma with our last dogs, which I won't go into here but have posted elsewhere on the forum, that makes me unsure if Astrid is absolutely the right dog for our family, but at this time, everyone in the household has agreed to participate in her training and work on the issues that we're having. If, in the end, we decide at some future point that Astrid just doesn't fit well with our lifestyle, we'll have done our best to make sure that she is well trained and well socialized for her next home, and her next home will be picked out with a lot of care (masteneo has offered to drive up from TX if she needs a home, lol ).

The standards remark was made tongue-in-cheek, and it wasn't about "softening" the standards, or even "changing" them, really, just rewording so that ignorant newbies (i.e. me) get a more accurate picture of what a Mastiff is like. The Fila standard (I noticed it wasn't AKC) was much more blunt, not a lot of leeway for misunderstanding there.

---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------

@dpenning: I'm well aware of the risks ....I've mentioned my last pup was a St Bernard, right? Cotton was definitely a lap dog...on the couch, in the bed, in the car (really had to work on setting boundaries in the car)...her person's lap was her preferred spot, and she tried to get as much of her body on said lap as possible.
Astrid might settle her bum on my lap for a moment whilst she noms on a toy, but really, she is not a lap dog. Oh, well! We have talked about our next pup (so, companion for Astrid) being a St Bernard or Bernese Mtn dog, maybe a rescue. There were no rescues when I was actively looking, and we found Astrid instead.

 

[excelrn]

@dpenning: I'm well aware of the risks ....I've mentioned my last pup was a St Bernard, right? Cotton was definitely a lap dog...on the couch, in the bed, in the car (really had to work on setting boundaries in the car)...her person's lap was her preferred spot, and she tried to get as much of her body on said lap as possible.
Astrid might settle her bum on my lap for a moment whilst she noms on a toy, but really, she is not a lap dog. Oh, well! We have talked about our next pup (so, companion for Astrid) being a St Bernard or Bernese Mtn dog, maybe a rescue. There were no rescues when I was actively looking, and we found Astrid instead.

 

[ruthcatrin]

lunging at a stranger, growling with teeth bared at a stranger (what I have seen some on this forum describe as wariness of strangers) is not great to me- it is aggression to me.

That is not wariness and the only person I recall refering it wariness that way was Glascow (which was part of our problem with him, if you read the entire thread). Wariness is watchfullness, especially of the new, but even of the familier, to determine threat. Aversion to strangers is not wanting to have much to do with them, a lack of interest in strangers other than determining they're not a threat. With the exception of the extremely soft tempered dogs (a fair number of BMs and EMs but less and less of the others) these dogs aren't interested in interacting with strangers other than determining they're not a threat. Properly socialized and trained these dogs learn that just because its new doesn't mean its a threat, but they still are going to be wary of the new, and not accepting of strangers. That is what they are. They aren't SUPPOSED to like strangers.

As for the standards I think:

Neo: The Neapolitan Mastiff is steady and loyal to his owner, not aggressive or apt to bite without reason. As a protector of his property and owners, he is always watchful and does not relish intrusion by strangers into his personal space. His attitude is calm yet wary.

is about perfect for the description of the breed, thats what Neos are. The fact that you neglected to look into what that meant doesn't make it incorrect or in need of change. I'm surprised the breeder you got your pup from didn't explain it to you since you're a first time mastiff owner.

And I don't believe Fila's are recognized by the AKC, though they might be in their rare breeds section since I've not paid attention there

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Well said Ruth.

 

[masteneo]

All right All right, enough, i read the whole post and several but not all responses. I have a wife and a 3 year old . we all live in a town that has forced entrys and robbery, rapes and so on and so forth. I also own Many firearms as i build them . I have absolutely no desire for people to show up in my house , on my porch or in my yard for that matter. I expect my dog to be aggressive with strangers , but willing to be called off. She also is expected to be a perfect FAMILY MEMBER! Chloe does this to a tee. If i wanted a Lab , buddy i would have got one for my son to play with. But that's not what i needed as part of the security of my property and family. My dog does not have to be good in public as she doesn't go in public. she does have to mind me when we go to the vet. This is a life the dog has to fit into. As such , i have always sought out neos, bulls, and pits for this job. And with my " pac" training they have all Loved there lives.

 

[Cody]

Well said Mary and Ruth!