Acceptable behaviour in mastiff breeds

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

This is quite a lengthy post but please bear with me.

Our dogs have been bred to very quickly work defensively and to be wary of strangers. Unfortunately, this causes a lot of us to accept behaviours in ours dogs which we shouldn't. Well socialised dogs should be friendly or at least neutral to strangers and friendly or at a minimum tolerant of other dogs.

I have been involved with the Neapolitan breed for over ten years. We manned the Discover Dogs stand at Crufts five or six times with our girl Kitty until she died last year. DD, for those who don't know, is one of the most popular parts of Crufts among the general public who visit. Hundreds of individual breeds are represented and it's purpose is for owners to educate the public about their breeds.

During my time with Neapolitans, and at DD, I have heard many "gems" of wisdom from owners and breeders about these dogs. One guy proudly boasted that his male NM could stand strangers and was anchored in hi garden with two heavy chains and that he couldn't take his dog out in public or have anyone pet his dog. This unfortunately plays into the bad boy image of the breed and makes them prizes for status dog seekers.

My journey into behaviour was hastened by my use of metal collars on Kitty and Bosco and my subscription to the notion of pack theory. In my ignorance and inexperienced, I effectively trained both my dogs to be react to other dogs.

It took us seven months to get Kitty used to other dogs to the point she would play with them. She was extremely reactive to other dogs and I was then able to use her as a stooge dog a few years later with dogs I was working with and her dog-dog communication skills became excellent.

In her later years, she became increasingly wary of strangers in general and specifically people walking past the property. We continued to work on this not only because it's the right thing for the public but also because it reduced her stress levels and in return would increase her life expectancy. React dogs are stressed dogs and stress causes illness and an decreased life expectancy.

Some breeders unfortunately play a role in this. Many have been breeding for so long and giving the same flawed behaviour advice that it has become gospel within the breed. Breeders are experts on breeding but most know little or nothing about behaviour. I don't give breeding advice because I don't know enough about it.

With our breeds you can have the super friendly, easy going, well adjusted, pleasure to own dog. Our dogs can be like Labrador and goldens, it just takes a ton more work and a much more proactive approach on our part. They can be fit and active and well trained. It's just more work on our part. Proper proactive socialisation and a shed load of classical conditioning are in order.

Don't settle for breed stereotypes. You owe it to yourselves and your dogs.

 

[allsierra123]

Try that with a fila lol.

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[Oak Hill Farm]

It's not stereotypes, it's called breed temperament. It's part of the overall breed standard defined by the club.

If you want a lab or golden, buy a lab or golden. Don't buy a mastiff breed. It's simple as that.

I do not think breeders should be breeding guardian breeds for friendly temperaments. Will you occasionaly have friendly dogs, of course, but it's not and shouldn't be the norm.

There is a whole gray area in between. Should people create monsters by leaving them chained in the back yard? No! But that is different from a well socialized, confident, aloof dog.

I expect my dog to be controlled, calm, and obedient to me. However I own a guardian breed for a reason (cane corso, presa, CAS, boerboel). I am aware of their temperament. It one reason why I love the breeds I do. While I don't expect (or let) him lunge, bark, and be frightening to everyone; I do expect a certain amount of wariness, alertness and aloofness.

I want my guardian breed dog to do what it was designed and created to do, guard. In public he should be watching his surroundings (it's a good thing to be alert), he should be uncomfortable and even give warning if something is not right ( people approaching at night, drunks or people being disorderly). He should not be happy having people fawn all over him. If I ask him to he will, but he doesn't like it and he gets HEAVILY REWARDED after.

I agree one should take every step to socialize and create a well adjusted dog. However I disagree that any guardian should approach life like a lab. Mastiffs should guard, labs should retrieve, collies should herd, terriers should hunt vermin, it makes the traits we love in our defined breeds. Just as a lab afraid of water would be no good, a mastiff with no protective instinct is pointless. It is the whole reason breeds were created in the first place, for a purpose.


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[grazefull1]

It's not stereotypes, it's called breed temperament. It's part of the overall breed standard defined by the club.

If you want a lab or golden, buy a lab or golden. Don't buy a mastiff breed. It's simple as that.

I do not think breeders should be breeding guardian breeds for friendly temperaments. Will you occasionaly have friendly dogs, of course, but it's not and shouldn't be the norm.

There is a whole gray area in between. Should people create monsters by leaving them chained in the back yard? No! But that is different from a well socialized, confident, aloof dog.

I expect my dog to be controlled, calm, and obedient to me. However I own a guardian breed for a reason (cane corso, presa, CAS, boerboel). I am aware of their temperament. It one reason why I love the breeds I do. While I don't expect (or let) him lunge, bark, and be frightening to everyone; I do expect a certain amount of wariness, alertness and aloofness.

I want my guardian breed dog to do what it was designed and created to do, guard. In public he should be watching his surroundings (it's a good thing to be alert), he should be uncomfortable and even give warning if something is not right ( people approaching at night, drunks or people being disorderly). He should not be happy having people fawn all over him. If I ask him to he will, but he doesn't like it and he gets HEAVILY REWARDED after.

I agree one should take every step to socialize and create a well adjusted dog. However I disagree that any guardian should approach life like a lab. Mastiffs should guard, labs should retrieve, collies should herd, terriers should hunt vermin, it makes the traits we love in our defined breeds. Just as a lab afraid of water would be no good, a mastiff with no protective instinct is pointless. It is the whole reason breeds were created in the first place, for a purpose.


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i'd have to agree i got a cc for a purpose not for a lap dog althought he mostly well manner if he feels im in danger i would want him to play his roll, thats y people should do there best to read about the breeds if u try to train a dog again it temp them life for u will b much hard its best to train based on the temp of the dog

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

I think you've both kind of missed the point. Some owners excuse behaviours in guarian breeds because of the type of dogs they are and what they've been bred for. Aggression and wariness of strangers is excused because the dogs is a Dogue, Fila, Dogo, Rottie etc. The point I'm making is this is an excuse. Rottweilers make great family pets if socialised and trained properly. The Boerboel has a similar temperament to the Rottweiler but is used to great effect in South Africa as a property protector if it isn't socialised with people because it sees all novel things as something to guard against. They can also make fantastic pet dogs, I've seen it.

The vast majority of all dogs are bought as pets and should be capable of living in society without being a menace to anyone. If you want a dog for protection, train him to protect you, don't rely on the dog having to make the decision for himself which could cause him to be PTS if he bites the wrong person and you in court, criminally or civilly.

I'm sure everyone here has heard small dogs being excused as being barky because they are small dogs. This is an excuse not a reason the bark. Terriers bark because they are genetically predisposed to barking but they are bark because they've not been taught when it's appropriate to bark and when to be quiet.

Mastiff breeds should be able to be handled by others. They shouldn't growl or lunge at strangers. If you don't want your dog to be petted by others don't let them but they should be able to be touched without reacting aggressively if a drunk person goes to touch them or a small child runs up the them and wants to pet them.

My mentor, Dr Ian Dunbar, has an 8 year old American Bulldog who is phenomenally stable. Ian actually challenges people to try to get a rise from the dog and no one has ever so much as caused the dog to growl. Dune is protection trained and will bite and defend on command, but he is still super social. And Ian has probably forgotten more about dog training and behaviour than all of us on this forum know.

Don't make excuses for your dog because of his or her breed.

 

[grazefull1]

well it seen to me like u r conpearing your dog to other different breed which isnt too pair if u ask me we i know its hard to get that perfect dog but thats why there's training n if u were looking for a different temp in this breed than u should have looked for a breeder that breeds for that temp which may r may not b hard to find
oh by the way what is the point i may just b a little off(slow) on what u r getting at sorry

also if u go to akc standard website u would also c that most of the mastiff breed r to b guradain type some more than others n r to b most close to family than to some strangers lol maybe u would of done better to get a great dane
i do understand some the dumb breeders bragging on what there dogs can do but than u seen like a smart preson to choose from the good n the bad n also its not alway a muncho thing there r also women n males that breed mastiff type dogs n show how proud they r of there dogs in shows, compations, n especialy in working habits/ablities

oh ya one more thing everyone have there likes n dislike, what is unacceptable 2 u maybe accepted 2 to others as u can c, people get dogs for so many reasons, weather its to b a house pet or 2 b a working dog r just to b protection u just have to understand that, thats y there is some any types of dogs n temp to fit our needs so its your dog n if u can fix that behavior than good for u but if u cant u should of known what u were getting yourself into n just have to do your best with what u have (n from what i get from u i would think u would have of done your rearch on the breed so it isnt like u didnt know this couldnt happen to your dog)

 

[angelbears]

The point that I got from your post is that our mastiffs can be happy go lucky labs that will open the front door for you as your leaving with my prized heirlooms. Most of us who did our research of the breed are looking for guardians that like OakHill says will take direction if needed but I don't want mine being friendly.

 

[Jadotha]

I agree with OHF, Anglebear and Grazefull: Breed standards -- very much including temperament -- provide the goals which all breeders should be striving to achieve and to consistently and uniformally reproduce through their programs. In some breeds temperament is one of the primary distinguishing characteristics.

If we look at the Labrador temperaments standard: The ideal disposition is one of a kindly, outgoing, tractable nature; eager to please and non-aggressive towards man or animal. The Labrador has much that appeals to people; his gentle ways, intelligence and adaptability make him an ideal dog. Aggressiveness towards humans or other animals, or any evidence of shyness in an adult should be severely penalized.

Now let's move on to our Guardian breeds:


English Mastiff: A combination of grandeur and good nature, courage and docility. Dignity, rather than gaiety, is the Mastiff's correct demeanor. Judges should not condone shyness or viciousness.


Neo: The Neapolitan Mastiff is steady and loyal to his owner, not aggressive or apt to bite without reason. As a protector of his property and owners, he is always watchful and does not relish intrusion by strangers into his personal space. His attitude is calm yet wary. In the show ring he is majestic and powerful, but not showy.


CC: The Cane Corso as a protector of his property and owners is unequaled. Intelligent, he is easily trained. Noble, majestic and powerful his presence is impressive. He is docile and affectionate to his owner, loving with children and family.

DDB: Dogue de Bordeaux is gifted for guarding, which he assumes with vigilance and great courage but without aggressiveness. He is a very good companion, being attached to and affectionate toward his master. He is calm and balanced with a high stimulus threshold. The male normally has a dominant character.


Tibetan Mastiff: The Tibetan Mastiff is a highly intelligent, independent, strong willed and rather reserved dog. He is aloof with strangers and highly protective of his charges and his property. In the ring he may exhibit reserve or lack of enthusiasm, but any sign of shyness is unacceptable and must be severely faulted as inappropriate for a guardian breed.


Fila (CAFIB standard) It is a courageous, determined and daring dog. It does not hide its aversion to strangers, or its traditional tenderness to its owners and family. Consequently, it is an unsurpassed watch dog in the cities, and an excellent herding dog and a hunter of big animals on farms. As a result of its temperament, at dog shows it does not allow the judge(a stranger) to touch it. And if it attacks the judge, such a reaction must not be considered a fault, but only a confirmation of its temperament.


Tosu Inu (FCI) : The temperament is marked by patience, composure, boldness and courage

I am sure I have forgotten to include some breeds on our forum, but I think the above is a fair representation. Nowhere in our guardian breeds' temperament standards do we see " super friendly, easy going,' or 'kindly, outgoing, tractable natured'.

I have an EM -- certainly one of the 'softer' of the Mastiff breeds, but I expect him to be dignified, and alert. He is very friendly with friends and neighbors and people I tell him are ok. But he is cautious with strangers. He will sit quiety and observe them, waiting for me to give him a cue as to whether and how to approach them. If he senses something he considers could be a threat, he will stand quietly in front of me with his chest puffed out -- never showing the slightest bit of aggression, but simply waiting and observing.

I also agree that our dogs should be well trained, obedient and socialised.

Finally GlasgowDT, whilst I did enjoy hearing more about your Kitty, I am curious as to what the purpose of your post was.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Finally GlasgowDT, whilst I did enjoy hearing more about your Kitty, I am curious as to what the purpose of your post was.

Ummmm....don't think you want me to state my guess.

I agree with the others really, and I HAVE a people friendly TM. Socialization and training are required so that the dog understands that people are weird and not all weirdness is a threat, but friendly is by no means required or expected, neutral is good. Neutral and watchfull ideal. But expecting a mastiff/guardian breed to be cheerfully friendly even with strangers on the property?? Um, no. Get a lab or a golden if thats what you want.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Ok, I've edited the second post and expanded on it. The point of my original post is that you should be able to walk down the street at night, with drunks around you without your dog reacting unless you are really in danger. If you can't do this, if your dog growls, lunges etc, the temperament isn't stable. I would have to disagree that a well socialised, well trained guardian breed will let people break into your home and steal your things. It's like putting a well trained collie in a field full of sheep unsupervised and expecting it not to herd them.

If your dog lunges at people in the street, doesn't like other dogs barks constantly, chases cars etc it's usually because of lack of proper socialisation and training.

 

[ruthcatrin]

With our breeds you can have the super friendly, easy going, well adjusted, pleasure to own dog. Our dogs can be like Labrador and goldens, it just takes a ton more work and a much more proactive approach on our part. They can be fit and active and well trained. It's just more work on our part. Proper proactive socialisation and a shed load of classical conditioning are in order.

I would have to disagree that a well socialised, well trained guardian breed will let people break into your home and steal your things. It's like putting a well trained collie in a field full of sheep unsupervised and expecting it not to herd them.

You're the one who said they can be like labs or goldens. And no one but you said anything about expecting the dog to allow people to walk into the home.

If your dog lunges at people in the street, doesn't like other dogs barks constantly, chases cars etc it's usually because of lack of proper socialisation and training.

And not one of us said that was a good thing. Have you actually READ what people are posting or are you just that full of yourself?

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

No, I'm not full of myself at all, I haven't tried or meant to insult anyone so let's try to keep this discussion friendly like the board rules say. We're all here to learn and pass on the benefit of our experience.

I didn't say anyone who posted was making excuses for their dogs either. I was asked what the point of the original post was and tried to expand on it. These dogs can be like labs and goldens if we want them to, and if you have on as a pet dog, then you should want to. If you have one as a home guardian or ppd then that's something else.

I recognise that people want dogs for different reasons and am totally cool with that. I'm just trying to make the point that we don't need to live with a mastiff who is aggressive or reactive if we don't want to which so many people seem to accept theay have to and so many others say it's because if the type/breed of dog they are.

another example to illustrate, pitbulls should be friendly towards all friendly social dogs and robust enough and have good enough social skills with other dogs not to immediately react with the serious aggression the are capable of.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I recognise that people want dogs for different reasons and am totally cool with that. I'm just trying to make the point that we don't need to live with a mastiff who is aggressive or reactive if we don't want to which so many people seem to accept theay have to and so many others say it's because if the type/breed of dog they are.

You're on the wrong message board if you think anyone here thinks that exceptable. But neither do any of us think trying to make them labs or goldens is exceptable either.

Considering you keep harping on how owners are ok with reactive aggressive dogs you obviously HAVEN'T read any of the responses here.

 

[grazefull1]

ooooooooooooooooo ok ok ok sorry for giving off that vib n yes your rite people can also make the dog evil but i seen to be a reasable onwer so i have u beef with u lol but when u get a certain type of breed going into it u most know the good n the bad n just work harder to have to best pet u can but just know that having a guradain dog is abit different from other dogs n u most b on top of things the same thing goes for having a pit u just get to b on top of things because there always way that things can go wrongs

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Again, I didn't say so. A lot of people will look at forums like these when researching what type of dog to get. Ruthcarin, have you ever heard phrases like

"You can't have dogs like these round kids, dogs, female dogs, male dogs, livestock, strangers (insert any other thing you can think of)" ?

Some of the books say you can't have two male adult mastiffs in the same household. I'm sure you're seen stuff like that. These are myths and it's up do experience, educated people like us to help novice owners and potential owners about what is fact and fiction in these breeds.
We will differ on somethings, as is the point of discussion. I'm not trying to turn guardian dogs into labs but they should be capable of being as robust as far as temperament goes as a lab is and not get spooked easily.

The Sherilyn Allen book, The Neapolitan Mastiff, was written in the 1990s. The dogs she describes are almost akin to having a lion living in your house. Even those of us with seriously rustic breeds like Ovcharkas know this isn't the case and shouldn't be. Let's try to dispel the myths about these dogs.

 

[Oak Hill Farm]

No I don't think we missed the point, I just think we disagree with you.

I don't want a lab like personality, I want a protective mastiff. Being protective is not a bad behavior that needs to be trained out, it a breed trait that we all knowingly selected for a reason. If we wanted amiable, friendly, outgoing dogs, we would all be on the lab forum. We're not. The day my CAS lets people on my property, is the day he is not useful.

You are a PDT, and that's fine. I have read a great deal of Ian Dunbar's work. I agree with a lot of it. Some I don't. To each his own. You'll find many people here do not agree 100% with you. That's fine too. It's why its a forum, to meet new people and express differing opinions and ideas.

However being new to the board, its probably best not to start by adding a "holier than thou" attitude and telling us because all our dogs aren't friendly, we are all doing something wrong. Not the way to draw people to your way of thinking.

I'll just end with agreeing to disagree. I don't believe all dogs should be overly friendly. It's a sad day for dog breeding when dogs are expected to all act the same way.

 

[GM2009]

I think you've both kind of missed the point. Some owners excuse behaviours in guarian breeds because of the type of dogs they are and what they've been bred for. Aggression and wariness of strangers is excused because the dogs is a Dogue, Fila, Dogo, Rottie etc. The point I'm making is this is an excuse. Rottweilers make great family pets if socialised and trained properly. The Boerboel has a similar temperament to the Rottweiler but is used to great effect in South Africa as a property protector if it isn't socialised with people because it sees all novel things as something to guard against. They can also make fantastic pet dogs, I've seen it.

Do you understand how - excuse me - idiotic this sounds? A Rottweiler has ZERO protection/guard work in its history. Zilch. It's main purpose was to help drive cattle, that's why it's a herding breed. I know many breeders world wide that would be at your throat right now over this. So of course any Rottweiler that is properly socialized as a puppy will be people, dog, cat, monkey friendly. That's expected. The fact that you're comparing a Rottweiler to a FILA is just ridiculous. If I saw someone who owned a Fila that let all the kiddies in the neighborhood pet them, I'd probably have a good laugh. It's not in their breed to be "social". If you want a social dog, well then don't buy a Fila! Every Fila owner I've ever come across where I live has very obedient dogs, they are not a "terror", but they will not accept strangers coming up to them. Does this mean they'll rip their face off? No! Yet they are also very stable, confident dogs. That's what a Fila is. Comparing a Rottweiler (a herding breed) to a Fila (a serious guarding breed) in my mind you just said this, "Well if horses can be ridden, I'm sure with serious training we can teach our dog to be ridden as well!"

You're missing the point... The way you're talking about "aggression" is if my dog were to growl at someone, they're aggressive. That isn't the case at all. Aggressiveness is unstable temperament and the inability to control themselves often due to nervousness or lack of confidence.

I don't understand what you're saying at all. The only part I agree with is when people promote true aggressiveness and lack of training. Everything else, I just don't understand why you're saying all of this? Quite frankly you're saying we should be able to change thousands of years of breed history in "hard work with socializing and training". ??? :dunno:

 

[ruthcatrin]

Again, I didn't say so. A lot of people will look at forums like these when researching what type of dog to get. Ruthcarin, have you ever heard phrases like

"You can't have dogs like these round kids, dogs, female dogs, male dogs, livestock, strangers (insert any other thing you can think of)" ?

Where on this forum is that honestly stated as part of the definition of the breed?

And in case you missed it, we're not myths here. We're guardian dog owners....

 

[ruthcatrin]

No I don't think we missed the point, I just think we disagree with you..................I don't believe all dogs should be overly friendly. It's a sad day for dog breeding when dogs are expected to all act the same way.

That. I want a lab I'll go get a lab. I wanted a guardian breed, so I got a guardian breed. Someone posts on here how they want a dog that'll be friendly with everyone and happy to meet strangers I can't think of ANYONE on here who's going to tell them to get a mastiff. THATS NOT WHAT MASTIFFS ARE. And I'll thank you to stop trying to change them.

 

[grazefull1]

alsome it true u have some mastiff that outside the box but the idea is to know the gearal things on the breed so there is no supprises, n again like i said there r mastiff type breeders out also breeding outside the box but yet again in all depends on what your looking for n how u train im thinking u have a puppy so u have alot a time to change the behavior n all puppies got spooked sometime in there life lol know if u have an adult that is spooked easy that a problem because they r aware not scare