Acceptable behaviour in mastiff breeds

[babyjoemurphy]

Ok now that I have made it to the end of this thread I can post. Marrow- thank you for posting the original thread from Glasgow and myself. I had posted help with Murphy LUNGING, and am looking for any advice. So this originated from me. I had asked a question and Glasgow posted here. I am looking for help in the "aggressive lunge" Murphy is doing. And as Marrow said being that we adopted him at 2 1/2, 5 weeks ago, we don't have the luxury of training from pups. We work with what we have and ask for help when we need it. This really got heated and I apologize. I don't want a lab or anything like that. I need a protector/Guardian as my husband works out of town and I am in a big city. But I also want to be able to walk my boy without worry. I am trying to get "what worked for you" info so I don't end up with a backyard dog.

 

[Oak Hill Farm]

We understand that and most members of this board try to offer advice best we can, given our experience.

We want to make this a welcoming place for people to find help. And usually it is. That is why most regular members here found this original post a tad out of line.


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[Jadotha]

Babyjoemurphy,
I have been active on both threads, and my view is that you had nothing directly to do with the original post in this thread. It was not germane or responsive to anything you described in your difficulties with Murphy. As Marrow noted, it is, in fact, a verbatim lift of GlasgowDT's blog. I cannot speak to GlasgowDTs motivations, but when I post consulting blogs/white papers on MY website, they are there to provide insight and tips, but primarily as marketing tools. You have nothing to apologise for, and we will continue to offer ideas about Murphy.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Babyjoemurphy,
I have been active on both threads, and my view is that you had nothing directly to do with the original post in this thread. It was not germane or responsive to anything you described in your difficulties with Murphy. As Marrow noted, it is, in fact, a verbatim lift of GlasgowDT's blog. I cannot speak to GlasgowDTs motivations, but when I post consulting blogs/white papers on MY website, they are there to provide insight and tips, but primarily as marketing tools. You have nothing to apologise for, and we will continue to offer ideas about Murphy.

This.

 

[angelbears]

I believe he posted this thread before he responded to your thread.

I will restate what I said earlier. I think his posting is very dangerous. People researching breeds come on here or anywhere he is posting and think they can get a Fila and with a little training they can take their Fila to the petting zoo and let kids and drunks come and love on their Fila. We get enough people on here that buy "Brazilian Mastiffs" and don't know what they have. I'm sure they are confused because they have this cute pup that overnight turns into a true temp Fila. Who no longer tolerates strangers. Socialize and train all you want if it is a true temp Fila you will not be walking it around town after it reaches a certain age.

 

[grazefull1]

I believe he posted this thread before he responded to your thread.

I will restate what I said earlier. I think his posting is very dangerous. People researching breeds come on here or anywhere he is posting and think they can get a Fila and with a little training they can take their Fila to the petting zoo and let kids and drunks come and love on their Fila. We get enough people on here that buy "Brazilian Mastiffs" and don't know what they have. I'm sure they are confused because they have this cute pup that overnight turns into a true temp Fila. Who no longer tolerates strangers. Socialize and train all you want if it is a true temp Fila you will not be walking it around town after it reaches a certain age.

so true people just dont want to face the facts, than they cry about how mean/dangerous/reactive they r it just drives me crazy sometimes ( its trying change nature bu u can only go so far)

 

[musicdeb]

I agree with angelbears, "I think his posting is very dangerous. People researching breeds come on here or anywhere he is posting and think they can get a Fila and with a little training they can take their Fila to the petting zoo and let kids and drunks come and love on their Fila. We get enough people on here that buy "Brazilian Mastiffs" and don't know what they have. I'm sure they are confused because they have this cute pup that overnight turns into a true temp Fila. Who no longer tolerates strangers. Socialize and train all you want if it is a true temp Fila you will not be walking it around town after it reaches a certain age." I read the entire thread and it almost turned into a very heated discussion. Since we're all adults here, it pretty much remained a debate.

Whenever I read someone has adopted a Fila puppy and say they are new to the breed and hope to learn more about the breed on the forum, I cringe. I cringe because they will probably end up rehoming the dog.

I'm just as guilty, I rescued Titan without a lot of knowledge about DDB's. After I got him, I started researching like crazy and this forum has been a tremendous help. In fact, I want to thank all of you who offer great and valuable information. Now I feel that I'm pretty knowledgeable about DDB's but by no means an expert.

When I first got Titan, I knew he could be protective and I thought training him would make him a "lab" dog. I learned rather quickly that wasn't going to happen. I accept Titan for what type of breed he is and accept that he will not be a lovey dovey kind of dog to strangers who might be walking in the park or in the parking lot.

Again, thank you to all of you on the forum who have helped me as well as many others.

*thumbs up*

 

[babyjoemurphy]

Oh my goodness I can't even begin to thank everyone on here for their input. It has been a "saving grace" for Murphy and myself. I just really hate the fact that this thread got to where it did. I completely understand why it did. A k-9 of any breed comes with their "absolute" traits and it can never be trained away. As I have taught my kids, you NEVER trust a dog 100% and that includes our dogs. They are still dogs...not saying that in a negitive why. Just that they come with their traits. But I at the same time would never tell my kids not to pet due to breed.
I can tell you I didn't even know anything about Filas and I would have never took one even being dumb to the breed. I always check things out. I have been to Mastiff breeders, and did alot of research as EVERYONE should. Going from my Sheppard/lab X who was very protective of us to this guy is night and day. Completely different dogs

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Oh my goodness I can't even begin to thank everyone on here for their input. It has been a "saving grace" for Murphy and myself. I just really hate the fact that this thread got to where it did. I completely understand why it did. A k-9 of any breed comes with their "absolute" traits and it can never be trained away. As I have taught my kids, you NEVER trust a dog 100% and that includes our dogs. They are still dogs...not saying that in a negitive why. Just that they come with their traits. But I at the same time would never tell my kids not to pet due to breed.
I can tell you I didn't even know anything about Filas and I would have never took one even being dumb to the breed. I always check things out. I have been to Mastiff breeders, and did alot of research as EVERYONE should. Going from my Sheppard/lab X who was very protective of us to this guy is night and day. Completely different dogs

Not your fault it happens on here occasionally, I actually found it to be a very good topic. Far too often when new breeds are discovered we tend "civilize" breeds that still have a job to do. I agree that research is the key and people need to understand what a breed is ( regardless) inside and out. Unfortunately most people don't see past the short term effect.

 

[babyjoemurphy]

Not knowing is one big reason dogs get rehomed. One thinking that training will make it all good.

 

[GM2009]

I love the members on here, you're all so realistic.

 

[neomama]

I got my girl because my husband died a I am in the country alone, she does her job! I have a fence around my house and that is her area to protect
If you meet her outside of the fence she is ok but if you try to come in my yard you will not be ok.
One thing I would NEVER trust her around young children, she was not brought up with kids and I just do not trust her with them.
Neos were breed to be the ultimate guard dog and should not be trained to guard, it comes natural.

 

[allsierra123]

I believe he posted this thread before he responded to your thread.

I will restate what I said earlier. I think his posting is very dangerous. People researching breeds come on here or anywhere he is posting and think they can get a Fila and with a little training they can take their Fila to the petting zoo and let kids and drunks come and love on their Fila. We get enough people on here that buy "Brazilian Mastiffs" and don't know what they have. I'm sure they are confused because they have this cute pup that overnight turns into a true temp Fila. Who no longer tolerates strangers. Socialize and train all you want if it is a true temp Fila you will not be walking it around town after it reaches a certain age.

I was one if those people that new next to nothing about fila's but this site did help me to figure out what I needed to know and how to proceed. I can take mine out now and have her under control. Can strangers touch her or act in strange or threatening manner no. could you train this out of her? No, no amount of training will change her. why? because that is what she is bred to do. Am upset upset or ashamed? Nope. To quote my buddy she is worst black lab he has ever seen. Lol

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[dogman#1]

I have socialized my fila to an obnoxious level...she went from going through windows to walking calmly by my side (people at least 10+' away). this took YEARS not days weeks or months and if someone even looked in my direction the wrong way it look as if I never even took her out...she would be lunginf and acting up... could I ever have taking that out completly?... I really doubt it. it seem slike the ones that say they have done it with their "Filas" just started out with ones that had little to no proper temp. then they claim that it is how they were raised... I have multiple dogs, all raised the same and the fila is the only one that reacts that way. I dont care how you raise a true game bred pit, lock that pittie in a room with a strange dog and some thing will happen.... this is like training a bird not to fly and then calling others bad trainers when you see their bird flying.. these dogs were bred to have specific traits, trying to "train" out a trait is insane and will leave you with the stupid look on your face and the words "but she never did that before"...

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Babyjoemurphy, this post has nothing to do with the question you were asking in your other post and please don't feel the need to apologise for anything. You asked a question because you were concerned about your dog's behaviour and I was in a position to help, especially since someone else recommended a prong collar which is one of the worst things you can do in instances such as this. My advice was offered genuinely and sincerely as I know from past experience how difficult it is to live with a reactive dog.

It was never my intention to cause upset in this post. Yes, my latest blog is almost a direct lift from this thread but posted here first which gave me the idea to expand on it on my blog. My advice to in other posts also predated this thread starting.

I recognise that many people here have dogs to protect their property and person. I appreciate this as a motivation for owning breeds such as these. I have never accused anyone here of having or promoting aggression in their own dogs. I hear time and again people saying to me that your dog can't X because it is a Y. I see this as an excuse not a reason for not training your dog to do what you want from it.

Mastiff breeds are natural guardians which is why proper socialisation and training is even more important than in friendlier breeds. If we don't properly socialise these breeds and we want to be able to take them out into the outside world they have the genetic predisposition because of their suspicious not to recover from bad experiences so easily. Proper socialisation, with tons of classical conditioning means the dog has literally hundreds of good experiences to fall back on to be able to recover.

We don't need to accept that our dogs react a certain way because of their breed. We can do work to rectify poor behaviours, this is what was meaning by the word "acceptable" in the thread title. I hope that helps clear things up a bit.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

It's not stereotypes, it's called breed temperament. It's part of the overall breed standard defined by the club.

If you want a lab or golden, buy a lab or golden. Don't buy a mastiff breed. It's simple as that.

I do not think breeders should be breeding guardian breeds for friendly temperaments. Will you occasionaly have friendly dogs, of course, but it's not and shouldn't be the norm.

There is a whole gray area in between. Should people create monsters by leaving them chained in the back yard? No! But that is different from a well socialized, confident, aloof dog.

I expect my dog to be controlled, calm, and obedient to me. However I own a guardian breed for a reason (cane corso, presa, CAS, boerboel). I am aware of their temperament. It one reason why I love the breeds I do. While I don't expect (or let) him lunge, bark, and be frightening to everyone; I do expect a certain amount of wariness, alertness and aloofness.

I want my guardian breed dog to do what it was designed and created to do, guard. In public he should be watching his surroundings (it's a good thing to be alert), he should be uncomfortable and even give warning if something is not right ( people approaching at night, drunks or people being disorderly). He should not be happy having people fawn all over him. If I ask him to he will, but he doesn't like it and he gets HEAVILY REWARDED after.

I agree one should take every step to socialize and create a well adjusted dog. However I disagree that any guardian should approach life like a lab. Mastiffs should guard, labs should retrieve, collies should herd, terriers should hunt vermin, it makes the traits we love in our defined breeds. Just as a lab afraid of water would be no good, a mastiff with no protective instinct is pointless. It is the whole reason breeds were created in the first place, for a purpose.


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Have I told you how much I love you lately chickie Kisses and hugs from my "guardians" lol!

Some of the books say you can't have two male adult mastiffs in the same household. I'm sure you're seen stuff like that. These are myths and it's up do experience, educated people like us to help novice owners and potential owners about what is fact and fiction in these breeds.
We will differ on somethings, as is the point of discussion. I'm not trying to turn guardian dogs into labs but they should be capable of being as robust as far as temperament goes as a lab is and not get spooked easily. I'm sorry but I don't think that MOST novice owners should have guardian breeds let alone try to keep 2 intact males in a house together. Crap most people I know shouldn't do this with labs let alone guardians!

The Sherilyn Allen book, The Neapolitan Mastiff, was written in the 1990s. The dogs she describes are almost akin to having a lion living in your house. Even those of us with seriously rustic breeds like Ovcharkas know this isn't the case and shouldn't be. Let's try to dispel the myths about these dogs.

You say you are not trying to change the breed but when you try to change the temperament to one that anyone can handle or have in their home you are ruining our noble guardians. With the exception of a few most of these breeds are non reactive (if stable and well bred, with training and socializing) but they are still more than the average John Smith should be owning. Making these breeds so soft they aren't able to perform their original function of being a true guardian is serious problem that we are facing with our guardian breeds.

I don't think you are going to get too many people agreeing that our dogs should be behaving like labs when they aren't. I grew up with labs and while they are great hunting dogs I have desire to have their goofy, love everyone attitude in my house. I don't think anyone gets a guardian breed to not have it guard something (even the people that should have them get them to guard something, even if it is illegal). My dogs are all social and when in the show ring will allow judges to go over them because I tell them to, they can walk through a crowd because I tell them to without reacting unless they sense a threat but I can assure that you they are far from a lab temperament and you would probably deem them aggressive if you attempted to visit my home. My kids are safe, my possessions are safe! It is the reasons we get GUARDIANS not sporting or lapdogs!

 

[Sadies Mom]

WOW!! Where was I when this was going on???? I have read Glasgows post over and over. And even though I agree with all of you, There is a reason why we have the dogs we have, I do not think his post was meant to imply that we need to change our dogs instincts to guard and protect. I had a Lab (RIP) and even though they are not guard dogs by heart, she did scare of some woud-be burglars, and we really appreciated that. I just think he meant that there are some people that blame their dogs behavior on the "stereotypical" breed disposition, not necessarily the breed standards. I have an EM and even though they are guard dogs, the biggest reason we decided on this breed was because of "A combination of grandeur and good nature, courage and docility" (taken from the AKC web page). She is only 6 months old and have not yet started to "guard" anything. We work hard to make her a good citizen and our goal is to make her in to a therapy dog. So, needless to say I do not need her to "guard" anything or anybody on our visits and hospitals and nursing homes. I understand that the temperament of the EM is different from a Fila, and a Fila would not be suited for our home and/or life style, that is why we got an EM.
Like I said earlier, we all have our reasons why we have the breeds we have and we all work hard to enhance their strengths and work on their weaknesses. I don't think Glasgow ever though he would get this kind of "vomit" for his post. He is a PDT and some of us have a pet dog, not just a working dog. Even though I do not agree with some of his methods he has mentioned in other posts, does not mean he does not have the best of intentions. Some of his suggestions might help someone. I have taken Sadie to multiple puppy classes and there are somethings they teach at these classes that just does not work for us, and I have to tweek them a bit. But that does not mean I hate the trainer. In one of our classes we have a shar-peiX, french bulldog, Min.Schnauser and Sadie. Not all commands will be/sound the same for every dog in the class, but our end goal is the same. To have a well behaved dog that is a good member of society.

 

[ruthcatrin]

To have a well behaved dog that is a good member of society.

Sadie, the problem is that Glasgow's apparent definition of that in a mastiff is that the mastiff have a lab's temperment and behavior. And I agree with the others that attempting to state that they SHOULD be that way is dangerous to people looking for information to get their first mastiff. A pet mastiff still has the instincts of a working mastiff. Some are "softer" temperment wise than others yes, but that doesn't make them "lab-like" in temperment and insisting that they can be trained to it is wrong.

I agree with Jadotha that this is basically an attempt to promote himself as a trainer, as in "oh look, he says he can make mastiffs act like labs, lets get HIM to train our dogs".

I also agree with dogman "these dogs were bred to have specific traits, trying to "train" out a trait is insane and will leave you with the stupid look on your face and the words "but she never did that before"". If you're lucky that "never did that before" won't result in the dog being put down....

We don't need to accept that our dogs react a certain way because of their breed. We can do work to rectify poor behaviours, this is what was meaning by the word "acceptable" in the thread title. I hope that helps clear things up a bit.

So you're saying that we don't need to accept that herding dogs WILL herd and scent hounds WILL track scent too? Those are as much ingrained in those breeds as the guardian instinct is in our dogs and can lead to negetive behaviors, and yet I have yet to see a trainer who insists that those traits can be trained out. Controlled or redirected yes, trained out no. And what you're describing for our mastiffs is NOT controlled, its trained out. And if you can't understand the difference then you seriously aren't going to get far on here.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Not knowing is one big reason dogs get rehomed. One thinking that training will make it all good.

It usually is, and understanding or lack their of the breed they chose.

---------- Post added at 09:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 AM ----------

Sadie, the problem is that Glasgow's apparent definition of that in a mastiff is that the mastiff have a lab's temperment and behavior. And I agree with the others that attempting to state that they SHOULD be that way is dangerous to people looking for information to get their first mastiff. A pet mastiff still has the instincts of a working mastiff. Some are "softer" temperment wise than others yes, but that doesn't make them "lab-like" in temperment and insisting that they can be trained to it is wrong.

I agree with Jadotha that this is basically an attempt to promote himself as a trainer, as in "oh look, he says he can make mastiffs act like labs, lets get HIM to train our dogs".

I also agree with dogman "these dogs were bred to have specific traits, trying to "train" out a trait is insane and will leave you with the stupid look on your face and the words "but she never did that before"". If you're lucky that "never did that before" won't result in the dog being put down....



So you're saying that we don't need to accept that herding dogs WILL herd and scent hounds WILL track scent too? Those are as much ingrained in those breeds as the guardian instinct is in our dogs and can lead to negetive behaviors, and yet I have yet to see a trainer who insists that those traits can be trained out. Controlled or redirected yes, trained out no. And what you're describing for our mastiffs is NOT controlled, its trained out. And if you can't understand the difference then you seriously aren't going to get far on here.

Since we lack a "like" or "thanks" option I'll create my own.

DD liked this post.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Sadie, the problem is that Glasgow's apparent definition of that in a mastiff is that the mastiff have a lab's temperment and behavior. And I agree with the others that attempting to state that they SHOULD be that way is dangerous to people looking for information to get their first mastiff. A pet mastiff still has the instincts of a working mastiff. Some are "softer" temperment wise than others yes, but that doesn't make them "lab-like" in temperment and insisting that they can be trained to it is wrong.

I agree with Jadotha that this is basically an attempt to promote himself as a trainer, as in "oh look, he says he can make mastiffs act like labs, lets get HIM to train our dogs".

I also agree with dogman "these dogs were bred to have specific traits, trying to "train" out a trait is insane and will leave you with the stupid look on your face and the words "but she never did that before"". If you're lucky that "never did that before" won't result in the dog being put down....



So you're saying that we don't need to accept that herding dogs WILL herd and scent hounds WILL track scent too? Those are as much ingrained in those breeds as the guardian instinct is in our dogs and can lead to negetive behaviors, and yet I have yet to see a trainer who insists that those traits can be trained out. Controlled or redirected yes, trained out no. And what you're describing for our mastiffs is NOT controlled, its trained out. And if you can't understand the difference then you seriously aren't going to get far on here.

Since we lack a "like" or "thanks" option I'll create my own.

DD liked this post.