Aggression

[Deepbreath]

Our 13 month old BB female is gradually becoming agressive to our older lab. Several fights, the problem is our lab is now submissive and last night BB attacked her just for receiving attention from my DH. She has also become beligerant to strange, large dogs which I understand can be a feature of the breed. We took her to socialization courses 2-3x per week from 12 weeks when we got her to 8 months, plus several obedience. My BF is freaked out now, says next attack will be the last and our lab is miserable and hides in the bedroom. We have our trainer coming in soon to help. She's only this dominant inside the house. Ideas? I don't want to get rid of my dog

 

[musicdeb]

I'm sorry that you are experiencing this behavior. Females tend to be the top dog in the household. Is she coming into heat? Their behavior changes drastically before the heat. Is the lab a male?

 

[Deepbreath]

Oh I should have said. Both females both fixed. What I am currently doing is keeping the gentle leader on my BB with a lead attached, and we have revoked doggy privileges that we probably should have avoided like bed n couch (dammit I WANT to snuggle my bb on the couch) and she is now sleeping outside the bedroom. We aren't promoting the lab as dominant either but she is traumatized and we are trying to help build her confidence without making her feel dominant again-as best as we know how until we can get trainer over. In hindsight a male may have been a better fit but I do not own a time machine to fix that. So that's what I have for now. They seem to be fine alone, it's us that cause the problem

 

[Hector]

Probably another case of resource guarding.

If attention or proximity of lab to either you or DH triggers these reactions, then I would say resource guarding.

Resource guarding you two can extend to other things too like beds, food, etc.

Go back to basics and most importantly train a place command. Place the dog on a mat, bed, spot and the dog is not allowed to get off until released. The important thing is to catch the BB before it escalates. Sometimes all it takes is a direct stare with the ears perked up and mouth closed. You must learn to read the BB and act ahead of her. You must stop the BB when you see the early signs and send her off to her cage or bed or a place command. The BB needs to be taught what the place means and then corrected for breaking it.

It is good to have the BB in place and perhaps muzzled unless you have confidence you have control while you give the lab attention. It is a way to proof her place (down/stay) command.

Things will escalate more each time the BB gets an opportunity to aggro on the lab. Either keep them separated or keep the BB on leash/drag line.

 

[Deepbreath]

Thank you ! I brought out two beds in the living room, I make both of them stay on them for the time being. I wish there was a way to explain to a dog I have more than enough love to go around, no need to fight

Going to keep her on the lead inside. She's miserable according to my DH-I'm at work-but I would die if our lab got hurt and the thought of re-homing my BB makes me want to barf from upset.

We have stopped giving any treats, scraps or high value bones for the foreseeable future as well. Oddly enough the bb doesn't care about her food dish, just our food. You are so right about the stare-that's all the warning you get and I stomp my feet and tell her enough. My DH is far less observant, so wish me luck . She doesn't challenge us at all so here's to hoping we can correct this asap

 

[Deepbreath]

I feel like a dog failure really. I try to train with her frequently.
How do smart mastiff owners feel about e collars?

 

[musicdeb]

Hope this helps: Aggression between Dogs in the Same Household | Psychology Today

Multi-Dog Household Aggression - Whole Dog Journal Article

 

[AZ Boerboel]

I feel like a dog failure really. I try to train with her frequently.
How do smart mastiff owners feel about e collars?

I am a firm believer in e collars when used properly. If you go that route, get with a trainer and learn to use it. Mine has saved 3 dogs (they started it, Lucia would have finished it) and 1 idiot mans skin from being shredded. Just make sure you use it properly or you'll make one hell of a flinchy and fearful dog. The e collar is a way to redirect attention. Use it on the lowest setting your dog can feel. The only time my dog has ever received more than a light pulse is when she tackled a guy and stood on his chest for trying to grab her collar at the park after he was told several times to leave my dog alone and not to interact with her since he clearly wouldn't listen or see Lucia's warning signs that she didn't like him.
I don't use mine for obedience training at all, mine is used solely as an "off button" and the beeper as a return button when we're out hiking. I started using it due to my BB and my pug going at it. It worked great for keeping the BB in line, but my female pug just takes the zap and keeps going after the BB. I have to keep them seperate now because apparently the pug has a death by teeth wish.
Most of the time I no longer need to even use the e collar as it has firmly reinforced the "leave it" "no" and "off" commands.

Good luck with your dogs. I know it's terrifying trying to seperate something as strong as a BB when it is getting its whoop ass on.

 

[dperkins31]

I have a male English Mastiff and a much older lab/pointer mix both males, and have had the same issues with my Mastiff. He is a resource guarder and guards everything from the food container, house, bed that he is sleeping on to myself and my daughter(my daughter no longer lives at home and now has her own mastiff so its mostly me now). This has definitely caused issues over the years and caused problems with out lab mix. They can be fine for long periods of time and then as soon as our Mastiff thinks that he is too close to me or something else that he doesn't feel he should be he will lunge at him. Our lab is the old man around the house so this not to be tolerated and can be upsetting at times. I am home the most as my husband works away a lot so I have come up with some ways to deal with it. Also, on a side note this is never an issue when my husband is home because he is firmly established as the pack leader and isn't challenged, so this never seems to be an issue when he is home. I have become an expert at reading our Mastiff and most of the time can tell just by the look in his eye and his stance when he is about to do it. If I know its about to happen I immediately grab his collar and firmly yank him back while scolding him and this generally ends it right there. When letting the lab back into the house after he has been outside can be an issue if the Mastiff is already in. To avoid issues here I take the Mastiff by the collar again and move him out of the way and keep him blocked so that the lab feels comfortable walking in the door. I really try to catch it before it has time to unfold as it has also at times traumatized and frightened our lab to the point of sometimes avoiding any contact and hiding but the situation is much better then it used to be. I also do not leave them in the house together when I am not home. I used to and nothing ever happened but I worried about it and decided it was better to be safe and just keep them separated when not home. Now the lab is left in the main part of the house and the Mastiff is in the attached garage that is heated and he has a bed and what he needs for the day. This has worked well. Although its an ongoing issue that we have to stay on top of it is under control mostly because we stay on top of it and never let it escalate and its gotten much better than it was when it first started, and as I said before they can go for months and have no issues, and then there will be 1 or 2 small outburst that are immediately brought under control. I am by no means an expert but have dealt with this behavior so I am familiar with how frustrating it can be! If you keep working on it the situation will hopefully improve likes ours did!

 

[Hector]

I feel like a dog failure really. I try to train with her frequently.
How do smart mastiff owners feel about e collars?

You still have to go through basic foundation work (crate, recall, sit, down, place, etc.). You still have to go through the teaching and corrective phase on the leash before moving on to the e-collar. There are no shortcuts. Also, when you move on to the e-collar for obedience, you have to go through the same teaching / corrective phase. Some dogs freeze or get distracted by what and where the shock is coming from so you have to layer this at first with leash pressure and that is why the first part is so important.

E-collar use meaning what here, as a correction for aggression??

You have to be careful with that and the timing has to be impeccable. There is actually no room for error to use the e-collar to correct aggression. Used wrongly, it can actually put the BB more on edge.

Also, grabbing the collar - only do this when you know the dog would not redirect on you. Most of the time, the dog will not redirect when they are at a lower level state of arousal, but they will redirect once they are in full blown attack mode - so just be aware.

And yes - I am dealing with the same exact thing you are. With catching it early and redirecting (crate), we have not had another incident. Catching it early for us meant a stare because that's how everything escalated within 3 seconds.

 

[DMikeM]

I have seen this before with 2 Boerboel females and other female housemate dogs same type and different type dogs. Seems the females are very needy/dominant and don't tolerate other females stealing their resources (food/attention).

Using an E-Collar, wow this can turn a good dog into a bad one if used wrong real fast. You must trigger before the dog fixes on the other dog, never after or during.

When my dogs fixate on another dog I flat out tell them LEAVE IT or STOP and distract them or pull them away with the leash and collar. I hope your trainer is well versed in Boerboel, many trainers try to use common techniques that just won't work with a Boerboel.

 

[AZ Boerboel]

Yeah, the E Collars are definitely not a substitute for consistent training and constant positive reinforcement. Definitely do not buy one and just start hitting the button as a correction, you need to go through training on how to properly read the dog and use the collars otherwise you'll have a far worse mess on your hands.

 

[DennasMom]

We had similar issues when we adopted a 65lb, 1-yr old bulldog/boxer mix into our home - with a resident 100lb 6yr old DaneX... both males in our case. The DaneX was happy to be submissive, but that just made the new guy want to be dominant - and I became the resource that needed guarding. If an argument broke out, I left the room, and it stopped (most times).

We found ourselves in your position - unable to cuddle or spoil either dog with lovin'. Not a happy scene.

It sounds like you're going about it right, to me - provide the lab some safe space, don't force her to be dominant... and try to take "top dog" status away from the BB, in a firm, yet gentle way.

We also tried an eCollar for the bulldog... he reacted quite badly... not sure if our timing was off, or it's just in the bulldog psyche: "if you feel pain, attack it, don't back down at any cost".... so we stopped using that pretty quick.

Hopefully the trainer will have some good ideas for you!!

If you can somehow communicate to the BB that the lab is a pack member that needs protection, and not a female to be in competition with... that would be awesome... I'm just not sure how one goes about getting that idea across to a dog...

 

[LizB]

Wonderful info above.

The only comment I have is that the BB needs to see you as leader, boss, person in charge, and therefore not wiling to make the decision to go after your lab, since your lab belongs to YOU, kind of like it would be with a human child. YOU make the decisions, and it is not acceptable for her to issue any type of correction to your lab, especially not in your presence like that (when you were petting the lab). Any corrections will be issued by YOU, and you don't need her "help" in showing the lab her place. We definitely allow our dogs to settle into roles and rank and all that between the two (or three) of them, but we would not allow any kind of tussle or scuffle right next to us like that. No matter what rank they hold between the two of them, they are equal in your eyes, and they must behave as such. She is at an age where she's trying new things, feeling a little bold and teenager like behavior is expected. This is a great time to review obedience and remind her what is and isn't acceptable. I know human children aren't dogs but if you think of your lab as like a small child, perhaps, it gives your "energy" (the mood your BB detects from you) the right tone so the BB knows that the lab is not hers to abuse as she sees fit. I don't think it will be hard at all to communicate this, as long a your energy is confident and clear.


We've been through this plenty of times over the years, as I have friends we visit with old/elderly dogs, small and large, that my boisterous young dogs have wanted to dominate, and we recently had an elderly and terminally ill dane mix that was bigger than your young dane mix, but he needed protection in this way as his health deteriorated.

I'd perform exercises in which you deliberately have her sit and watch while you pet the lab, then reverse the exercise with the lab sitting for you to pet the BB, etc.

Best of luck, and rest assured, you WILL CUDDLE AGAIN!! You just have to get through this little phase.

 

[Deepbreath]

Hey all, thank you for your support! Things are going much better since we changed some of the rules, and also made some changes to how we react to dangerous situations. We no longer yell if we see a situation approaching critical mass, our trainer said that just sends her over the edge-now we either tell her to come (non negotiable with the e collar it works) or head her off using happy voices only.

I was in Mexico for 12 days , we boarded her with another trainer from the same company who she has known since puppyhood and is comfortable with, we told him to watch for situations and he essentially cured her with a squirt bottle, which we have incorporated to great success. It's so nice to be able to relax around our dog again, although our lab is still scared she is less so and starting to interact with us more now that we have the BB under control.

We did order a muzzle just to be safe, no one in town had one big enough so we are waiting for a special order (baskerville deluxe size 8). But I'm super thrilled about the progress we have made.

 

[Deepbreath]

Wonderful info above.

The only comment I have is that the BB needs to see you as leader, boss, person in charge, and therefore not wiling to make the decision to go after your lab, since your lab belongs to YOU, kind of like it would be with a human child. YOU make the decisions, and it is not acceptable for her to issue any type of correction to your lab, especially not in your presence like that (when you were petting the lab). Any corrections will be issued by YOU, and you don't need her "help" in showing the lab her place. We definitely allow our dogs to settle into roles and rank and all that between the two (or three) of them, but we would not allow any kind of tussle or scuffle right next to us like that. No matter what rank they hold between the two of them, they are equal in your eyes, and they must behave as such. She is at an age where she's trying new things, feeling a little bold and teenager like behavior is expected. This is a great time to review obedience and remind her what is and isn't acceptable. I know human children aren't dogs but if you think of your lab as like a small child, perhaps, it gives your "energy" (the mood your BB detects from you) the right tone so the BB knows that the lab is not hers to abuse as she sees fit. I don't think it will be hard at all to communicate this, as long a your energy is confident and clear.


We've been through this plenty of times over the years, as I have friends we visit with old/elderly dogs, small and large, that my boisterous young dogs have wanted to dominate, and we recently had an elderly and terminally ill dane mix that was bigger than your young dane mix, but he needed protection in this way as his health deteriorated.

I'd perform exercises in which you deliberately have her sit and watch while you pet the lab, then reverse the exercise with the lab sitting for you to pet the BB, etc.

Best of luck, and rest $#@!ured, you WILL CUDDLE AGAIN!! You just have to get through this little phase.

Yes, exactly. Being aggressive to our poor lab in front of us is disrespectful, if we had big boss pants she wouldn't do it. Hopefully the things we have done will continue to hold up

 

[Deepbreath]

PS about the e collar I was upset because I thought using the e collar for training caused her aggression, as that is what the internet tried to tell me-our trainer is very familiar with them and said (as you all know) they never work for aggression and usually make it worse. We weren't using it like that, just for recall off leash and to define our property lines (or she would guard five yards at once I swear) and that we were using it correctly. I was just concerned I'd turned her into a beast

 

[Deepbreath]

You still have to go through basic foundation work (crate, recall, sit, down, place, etc.). You still have to go through the teaching and corrective phase on the leash before moving on to the e-collar. There are no shortcuts. Also, when you move on to the e-collar for obedience, you have to go through the same teaching / corrective phase. Some dogs freeze or get distracted by what and where the shock is coming from so you have to layer this at first with leash pressure and that is why the first part is so important.

E-collar use meaning what here, as a correction for aggression??

You have to be careful with that and the timing has to be impeccable. There is actually no room for error to use the e-collar to correct aggression. Used wrongly, it can actually put the BB more on edge.

Also, grabbing the collar - only do this when you know the dog would not redirect on you. Most of the time, the dog will not redirect when they are at a lower level state of arousal, but they will redirect once they are in full blown attack mode - so just be aware.

And yes - I am dealing with the same exact thing you are. With catching it early and redirecting (crate), we have not had another incident. Catching it early for us meant a stare because that's how everything escalated within 3 seconds.

I hear you, exactly. When there were fights I would grab her back legs like a wheel barrow and pull her off at an angle, as soon as I disengaged them she would stop the attack. All we got was a stare too-the posturing is so, so slight-all of a sudden I would notice her shoulders seemed more squared and her gaze more intense and BOOM

 

[DMikeM]

Watch her back fur, and her tail or nub for aggression signs. The back fur on a BB will just change from light to dark sometimes and it is barely noticeable. Sometimes it is just at the base of the tail other times it will be the whole topline. Petting it down will often diffuse the situation. The nub or tail will stand hard and erect when they are irritated or about to attack as well.

 

[Deepbreath]

Re: Aggression1381

Watch her back fur, and her tail or nub for aggression signs. The back fur on a BB will just change from light to dark sometimes and it is barely noticeable. Sometimes it is just at the base of the tail other times it will be the whole topline. Petting it down will often diffuse the situation. The nub or tail will stand hard and erect when they are irritated or about to attack as well.

Yes, I have noticed when she is feeling intense her tail poofs up like a pom pom at the end. I haven't noticed a color change so much as light reflection when it bristles a wee bit-she's a very dark brindle and almost seems to absorb sunlight. Hard to photograph too