Barf Diet Disaster, do I need to supplement? or go to Kibble?

[davidtq]

Ok my Mastiff mix, is growing ridiculously fast, and is 96lb at 22 weeks and slim and is approx 26" at the shoulders.

We noticed last week that his right knee is turning in took him to the vets, and after a couple of consultations theyve done a load of x rays yesterday. At just 5 months old he has really bad hip dysplasia, and thin bone walls from too little calcium . There is no question that he will need both hips replaced at 18 months old, and its a case of managing the condition until then. Unfortunately it seems for all the talk about keeping calcium low in kibble diets to slow growth in fact if they are going to grow fast they will grow fast and leach the calcium from the bone walls.

We have been mainly feeding chicken drumsticks and chicken carcasses stuffed with one of three different minces. He enjoys emptying the mince from the carcass eating that, then crunching the carcass. Typically he would have 5 of these carcass a day over 3 meals. The minces are either a beef offal mince, whole chicken mince or a beef muscle meat mince. This diet went pretty well untill he started losing his teeth 2 weeks ago, since which he has been on the minces more, with less carcass.

The vet wants us to go on to their 1.3% calcium giant puppy kibble, but Im not convinced at all that the total calcium he gets from that would be as much or as high quality as he gets from carcass's and drumsticks?

Im considering supplementing with bonemeal to increase calcium levels and some glucosamine+chondroitin+omega 3 supplements to help reduce arthritis setting in.

 

[davidtq]

Might be worth noting that the vet said the femoral head looked perfect, it was the sockets being really shallow, as in virtually none existant.

 

[marke]

don't supplement calcium , feed him a good quality large breed puppy food like your vet said ...... imo you should walk him a lot , as long as it doesn't make him sore walk him as much as you can .... don't run him , discourage it ..... at 5 months you really can't see the acetabulum completely , it's not fully formed , an experienced vet could see abnormal though ....... muscle up his rear , as much low impact exercise as you can give him , walk him up hills ......

 

[davidtq]

don't supplement calcium , feed him a good quality large breed puppy food like your vet said ...... imo you should walk him a lot , as long as it doesn't make him sore walk him as much as you can .... don't run him , discourage it ..... at 5 months you really can't see the acetabulum completely , it's not fully formed , an experienced vet could see abnormal though ....... muscle up his rear , as much low impact exercise as you can give him , walk him up hills ......

Hills are something we have no shortage of where I live in fact a flat walk is hard to find. More walking isnt an issue, weve been trying to keep it down to discourage hip problems, one vet says 10 minutes per month of age maximum another says 5 minutes per month of age max. He tends to get somewhere between 40 and 50 minutes a day of gentle paced up and down hill walking split over 3 walks. I dont know if thats supposed to be a daily total or a per walk maximum?


No idea on how much experience it would require to tell abnormal in a 5 month old puppy, especially one growing at his rates, he is bigger than. I must be getting old, but he didnt seem as if he could have been any older than 25 at the very most. Wouldnt have looked out of place as McDonalds staff. That said he would know far more about what he was looking at than I would, the x-rays themselves were nice and clear, and the sockets really seemed pretty much none existant to my eyes as well. Ive seen xrays of normal adult hips. with a nice fitting socket and femur ball and it was nothing like that, although it all looked smooth and natural so to speak.

 

[marke]

personally i don't believe there is a set maximum , it's whatever the pup can handle , i've never seen a pup hurt by walking ...... if i could give my pups the ability to be moving 24/7 i would ...... i'm convinced the more free range a pup is given the better they turn out orthopedically....... personally i'd shoot for a higher protien than i believe hills has , and i don't think you need to feed puppy food as long as the calcium phosphorus ratios are inline with what is recommended for growing large breed dogs ....at 20 weeks you should see the dorsal rim of the acetabulum behind the ball of the femur too some extent , it will get deeper , but normally there should be some there now , usually the femoral head will show some deformation , it'll be shifted downward as if it's sliding off the neck ........ i'd get my pup stronger , carefully , and not give up on hopefully normal to near normal , or normal enough .....

 

[tmricciuto]

If you are feeding a mince, are you making it yourself or going through a supplier? I am going to start using a supplier and in her mince ingredients it clearly shows that there is bone in the content. I need to ask her how much to make sure mine are getting the right amount, although apparently you can tell a lot about that by their poop.

I'm not going to be any help with the hip stuff, but will be interested in following this thread to see what everyone else has to say.

Good luck with your puppy.

 

[Hector]

Feed a quality kibble. This is exactly my concern when feeding raw to a pup. I did feed raw to my pup up until 2 yrs old. If I had to do it over, I think I'd stick with a quality kibble as I am afraid of screwing up.

Who knows what the real cause is. It could be from diet, it could be genetics.

I'd put him on a quality diet for now and wait.

Did you get him from a breeder?

 

[DennasMom]

I think it's a combination of genetic predisposition with nutrition support, personally... nutrition may or may not be able to overcome the genetic issues, depending on the severity.

Without knowing what's in the "mince"... it's hard to say if this is a nutrition-based issue or purely genetics. Don't beat yourself, in either case... stuff sometimes just 'happens'.

I've heard many breeders say they've raised dogs on the "whole prey model raw" formula successfully... but... they've probably been doing it so long they don't remember any early issues they may have rectified already.

Some things I would point out:

1. you need 'enough' calcium, but not 'too much' - thus the <1.5% recommendation for kibble calcium levels. (from bones in the raw diet)

2. you need calcium balanced with 'enough' phosphorus - about 1.2% phosphorus to go with that 1.5% calcium in the kibble (comes from meat in the raw diet).

3. you need vitamin C for proper cartilage production. In the raw diet this is from the organ meats. Vitamin C is a recommended supplement for dogs going through pano/growing pains.

4. you need vitamins D and K2 to provide support to get the calcium from the food into the blood and into the bones properly... they supplement this in kibble. In a raw diet, this is from things like eggs and sardines, a bit from liver, and then the dog can make some from sunbathing (although fur coverage and latitude play a role, there).

In your shoes, I think I would also transition over to a quality kibble (which is probably NOT from the vet... I'd go chicken & grain-free), just to remove nutrition from the equation. I might also look at some vitamin supplements - especially C, D and K2... you can over do D, and cause a D toxicity, so be careful, there.

If you know of any breeders in the area that raw-feed... maybe they can take a look at your menu and offer some advice, so you can keep him on the barf diet with some adjustments. I do believe the barf/raw diet is the best you can do - but growing puppies also scare me. Denna is our first raw-fed dog, and we didn't make the leap until she was 6 months old.

This is still a young and growing pup... hopefully with some extra special nutrition and steady exercise (walking hills, as suggested above, avoiding any jumping or jogging on pavement) to build muscle to hold the joint in place as new bone develops, you can get the pup on a track to avoid surgery.... but, I'd open a savings account for surgery expenses, just in case...

Bummer.

 

[tmricciuto]

I agree with DeenasMom. I would look for a Raw Food co-op to get some resources to those who feed raw in your area. I can't wait to start ours in Jan, they will be 11 months then, and am positive it will prove beneficial to them. I have and am doing a lot of reading up on the subject and am looking forward to starting them off right.

 

[DDSK]

One thing I would do after you decide which feed to go with and exercise him is to contact an experienced orthopedic vet to re examine your baby. Some Vets love to do unnecessary surgeries to make their car and boat payments.
You have some time waiting till 18 months so I would do some research into really good orthopedic vets.

 

[Liz_M]

I've been a pretty committed fan of raw since 1999 and have raised several large-breed (and one smaller one) puppies on this diet BUT Booker is my first giant-breed pup (EM, not as humungous as yours but still growing a a pretty good clip!) Because let's face it, raw may be the best "evolutionary, natural" diet out there but I am not sure there is a carnivore in natural existence that grows at that rate; we are not dealing with wolves here but with domesticated canines that have been human- bred to grow to unnatural size at an unnatural rate.


So my last big Rottweiler puppy, I bought mostly whole/ground raw product for him, ie presumably balanced, where the supplier was basically dropping entire animals, sometimes fur and all, into a grinder. But it was ridiculously, ridiculously expensive, like $10-$15 per day just for the one pup and I have two other dogs.


So with Booker, I do feed him some raw meals but mainly I have been sticking with kibble (Earthborn grain-free large adult) along with various table scraps and so far so good. Great muscle, firm poops,steady growth, and fingers crossed no ortho issues. So that is my recommendation for you: Feed mostly kibble until long bone growth is done, at your pup's size maybe two years, then go back to more raw if you want. My adult dogs eat mostly raw.


One thought though; if you tell the vets what you are feeding they are likely to automatically blame the "non-standard"diet. Like, I have a good friend who used to be morbidly obese and for years, every doctor she ever had, for every medical condition she ever had, would just blame her weight. Which was justified in some cases but not all. Don't let a vet guilt you into thinking it's your fault! It may very well be all genetics; HD and ED is very very common even in kibble-fed dogs.

 

[davidtq]

I think it's a combination of genetic predisposition with nutrition support, personally... nutrition may or may not be able to overcome the genetic issues, depending on the severity.

Without knowing what's in the "mince"... it's hard to say if this is a nutrition-based issue or purely genetics. Don't beat yourself, in either case... stuff sometimes just 'happens'.

I've heard many breeders say they've raised dogs on the "whole prey model raw" formula successfully... but... they've probably been doing it so long they don't remember any early issues they may have rectified already.

Some things I would point out:

1. you need 'enough' calcium, but not 'too much' - thus the <1.5% recommendation for kibble calcium levels. (from bones in the raw diet)

2. you need calcium balanced with 'enough' phosphorus - about 1.2% phosphorus to go with that 1.5% calcium in the kibble (comes from meat in the raw diet).

3. you need vitamin C for proper cartilage production. In the raw diet this is from the organ meats. Vitamin C is a recommended supplement for dogs going through pano/growing pains.

4. you need vitamins D and K2 to provide support to get the calcium from the food into the blood and into the bones properly... they supplement this in kibble. In a raw diet, this is from things like eggs and sardines, a bit from liver, and then the dog can make some from sunbathing (although fur coverage and latitude play a role, there).

In your shoes, I think I would also transition over to a quality kibble (which is probably NOT from the vet... I'd go chicken & grain-free), just to remove nutrition from the equation. I might also look at some vitamin supplements - especially C, D and K2... you can over do D, and cause a D toxicity, so be careful, there.

If you know of any breeders in the area that raw-feed... maybe they can take a look at your menu and offer some advice, so you can keep him on the barf diet with some adjustments. I do believe the barf/raw diet is the best you can do - but growing puppies also scare me. Denna is our first raw-fed dog, and we didn't make the leap until she was 6 months old.

This is still a young and growing pup... hopefully with some extra special nutrition and steady exercise (walking hills, as suggested above, avoiding any jumping or jogging on pavement) to build muscle to hold the joint in place as new bone develops, you can get the pup on a track to avoid surgery.... but, I'd open a savings account for surgery expenses, just in case...

Bummer.

The minces are made for pets by the local butcher, The Offal mix is literally a cows worth of heart live kidney lungs etc minced and blended The "Beef" mix is beef muscle and trim meat minced up, the chicken mix as far as I know is literally prepared bird dropped in the mincer. We "roughly" worked it out to be a 80% meat, 10% bone. 10% offal (including liver, we tried seperate feeding liver but he wont touch it and has became quite adept at detecting and eating around it when we tried to chop it and put it in with other stuff) Between 4 or 5 chicken carcass's and mince he gets about 1.8kg of food a day (just under 4lb), we are currently upping the bone proportion a fair chunk whilst we make up our mind which way to go. I think we need more information from a vet really.

Unfortunately whilst I know a few pet owners on barf diets I dont know any breeders who feed raw, and certainly not any giant breeders who feed raw apart from the "breeder" who sold us the pup. Unfortunately they were a farmer not a full time dog breeder, and it was a case of cheapest kibble on free feed and cheap beef mince.

Fortunately surgery costs shouldnt become an issue, we have very good lifetime cover from one of the best respected dog insurance companies over here. £7000 per year, life time cover so they dont bump prices because youve got a claim and dont make a new diagnosed problem in one year a pre existing condition the next year. The insurance are already covering the initial X-rays which was over £500.

Feed a quality kibble. This is exactly my concern when feeding raw to a pup. I did feed raw to my pup up until 2 yrs old. If I had to do it over, I think I'd stick with a quality kibble as I am afraid of screwing up.

Who knows what the real cause is. It could be from diet, it could be genetics.

I'd put him on a quality diet for now and wait.

Did you get him from a breeder?

We got him from a farm, breeding the next generation of working dogs, not from a full time breeder.

One thing I would do after you decide which feed to go with and exercise him is to contact an experienced orthopedic vet to re examine your baby. Some Vets love to do unnecessary surgeries to make their car and boat payments.
You have some time waiting till 18 months so I would do some research into really good orthopedic vets.

Will see what I can track down. I would love to get some tests done to know where he stands on calcium phosphorus and Vit D levels. Im more than little surprised that there was a suggestion of glucosamine chondroitin msm supplements to help prevent athritis setting in and reduce chances of pain, there was no real solution except feed this food we sell and at 18 months we will replace the hips. When he starts getting pain bring him in and we will prescribe something for the pain. ID also like to get an idea on how long remineralisation of his bones will take once calcium levels are corrected...

I've been a pretty committed fan of raw since 1999 and have raised several large-breed (and one smaller one) puppies on this diet BUT Booker is my first giant-breed pup (EM, not as humungous as yours but still growing a a pretty good clip!) Because let's face it, raw may be the best "evolutionary, natural" diet out there but I am not sure there is a carnivore in natural existence that grows at that rate; we are not dealing with wolves here but with domesticated canines that have been human- bred to grow to unnatural size at an unnatural rate.


So my last big Rottweiler puppy, I bought mostly whole/ground raw product for him, ie presumably balanced, where the supplier was basically dropping entire animals, sometimes fur and all, into a grinder. But it was ridiculously, ridiculously expensive, like $10-$15 per day just for the one pup and I have two other dogs.


So with Booker, I do feed him some raw meals but mainly I have been sticking with kibble (Earthborn grain-free large adult) along with various table scraps and so far so good. Great muscle, firm poops,steady growth, and fingers crossed no ortho issues. So that is my recommendation for you: Feed mostly kibble until long bone growth is done, at your pup's size maybe two years, then go back to more raw if you want. My adult dogs eat mostly raw.


One thought though; if you tell the vets what you are feeding they are likely to automatically blame the "non-standard"diet. Like, I have a good friend who used to be morbidly obese and for years, every doctor she ever had, for every medical condition she ever had, would just blame her weight. Which was justified in some cases but not all. Don't let a vet guilt you into thinking it's your fault! It may very well be all genetics; HD and ED is very very common even in kibble-fed dogs.

His unnatural growth rate is one of our concerns, especially when we look at dog weight charts for his age, 22 weeks, 96lbs. A guideline for St Bernards suggests 76lbs, There was a litter of well bred saints that we were looking at when we got him and weve kept tabs on them and they are only at 68lbs. English Mastiffs at 22 weeks according to charts we find are "supposed" to be at around 75lbs. Theres a good 22% more dog than is expected for a giant puppy his age. At just 5 months old he is roughly the size and weight of a decent year old Gray Wolf. how can a kibble fed per instructions, formulated to be right for a giant breed that is so much smaller than him possibly deliver the nutrition needed for his actual size and growth rate? If a diet is designed to support regular growth without being too much, will it contain enough extra to remineralise the thinned bone walls as well as support his extra fast growth?

Without some sort of regular testing we couldnt hope to supplement at just right either. Im not sure if blood tests are good enough to show if a diet is too much or too little calcium or phosphorus? To my mind he needs more calcium than just a growth ammount to repair the damage done. On the positive side, at least we know his excessive growth rate isnt being forced by too much calcium in the diet...

 

[marke]

i'm gonna say i'm about positive supplementing with calcium will not undo any damage that has been done ....I think it would cause more problems than any possible benefit , of which I think is none ....... I know a breeder who has weaned and raised many ddb litters on raw .... orthopedically their dogues are above average ....... I've gotten pups from them and they turned out orthopedically outstanding , I did change them over to kibble when I got them at 9 weeks ..... imo the best chance your dog has is through exercise ...... I think lack of an acetabulum is due more than likely to lack of the femur being held tightly in place as it was forming ...... I've read an injury to a young growing pups rear leg for as little time as a week will be measurable in the acetabulums depth as an adult ......

 

[marke]

I don't believe your pup is much different in size than a great dane or wolfhound pup of a similar age ?

 

[Liz_M]

I'm going to go with marke on this, I don't think (although I don't KNOW) that the solution to insufficient dietary calcium - if that is indeed the case - is to supplement with MORe calcium, which has its own set of bad consequences. Seriously, I would go to a "professionally balanced" diet, give him plenty of exercise as tolerated and swimming/low impact is best, and hope that nature and nurture sorts it out.


Anecdote: I had a Rottweiler puppy that I had very high hopes for get diagnosed with bilateral elbow dysplasia at 10 months old. My regular vet sent me to an ortho specialist, who went me to the ortho department at MSU, and the general consensus was my dog would be arthritic by three years old and would not be able to work or trial. Well guess what, by seven he had obedience and tracking titles and got agility tiles in two venues (UKC and AKC) and by eight years old was a Grand Champion agility dog, UKC and had also titled in USDAA. A little over eight he had surgery for "joint mice"and at almost nine he was diagnosed with osteo in the left elbow and despite heroic efforts that's what killed him. But joint problems and bone cancer are extremely common in Rottweilers, so I never did blame myself for raising him on raw.


But my point is, I kept him arthritis and surgery-free despite predictions, for almost eight years, and they were an extremely active eight years. I did lots and lots of low-impact exercise, joint supplements daily for life, delayed neutering on both his breeder and the ortho vet's advice, and kept him extremely lean, like almost ribby, for a Rottweiler. So it is not necessarily doom and gloom.


Also, we need updated photos of your giant fluffy boy. (As an aside, the Rottweiler I just wrote about was long-haired, even though from otherwise impeccable lines.) He actually contributed to the MSU study that later identified the "fluffy" recessive gene in several breeds, so now breeders can test for and identify that gene in their breeding dogs and avoid breeding fluffy litters.

PS, I do disagree with marke that your pup's size and development is similar to that of a Dane or any other giant breed. Wolfhounds, deerhounds etc might be very tall but they are actually quite light; most sighthounds are. Even EMs - the largest and heaviest of all dog breeds - are not usually the size of yours.

 

[marke]

my point on the size is I think to assume normal nutrition is not enough for this pup because of his size is incorrect and will cause you a problem ........ my dogs run 24-26" , I've seen great dane pups no more than than 6 months tower over them ....... I believe he said his dog was 25" at 5 months , I don't believe that is unusual for a great dane or wolfhound pup ? as far as weight , he said 80lbs , 80lbs could be 70lbs if the dog was skinny , or 90 if he were fat , weight is easily variable , height is not .... while weight will affect joints through environmental factors , bone growth and weight are independent to the best of my knowledge .....

 

[davidtq]

my point on the size is I think to assume normal nutrition is not enough for this pup because of his size is incorrect and will cause you a problem ........ my dogs run 24-26" , I've seen great dane pups no more than than 6 months tower over them ....... I believe he said his dog was 25" at 5 months , I don't believe that is unusual for a great dane or wolfhound pup ? as far as weight , he said 80lbs , 80lbs could be 70lbs if the dog was skinny , or 90 if he were fat , weight is easily variable , height is not .... while weight will affect joints through environmental factors , bone growth and weight are independent to the best of my knowledge .....

Not sure where I said he was 80lb? Thats where he was around week 19-20, Ive been keeping the forum up to date with his weight. He was 96lb and quite slim with it, at 5 months 2 days, vet and dog trainers both happy that he doesnt want to lose any weight! I have asked both specifically if he should lose weight after the x-rays, and neither thought so even with his problems. He is 5 feet to nose tip stood on his hind legs now today (5 months 1 week) Heres a couple of new photos along with some that have already been posted elsewhere on the forum. He has put on close to another inch at the shoulders, and still has 3.5 weeks to go to the 6 month mark. Great Danes and Irish wolf hounds may be a similiar height but the builds are entirely different, mastiff builds are WAY m ore solid which means a lot more weight for the hieght over the joints even in similiar body condition. Theres no fat covering over the ribs (as assessed by 2 vets), he tucks in all the right places, hes just big, far more substance than a great dane or irish wolfhound.






Im starting him on glucosamine based joint supplements and getting him up and down the hills more. looking at different brands of dry foods.

 

[marke]

I assumed on 9/22 he was at least 21weeks ,

9 weeks 12.5 / 27.5
10 weeks 16 / 35.2
11 weeks 18 / 39.7
12 weeks 19 / 41.9
13 weeks 21.2 / 46.7
14 weeks 22.8 / 50.2
15 weeks 25 / 55.1
16 weeks 27.5 / 60.6
17 weeks 32.2 / 69.9
18 weeks 34.2 / 75.4
19 weeks 34.8 / 76.7
20 weeks 36.8 / 81.1
21 weeks 41.4 / 91.3

he is a big dog , but unless he has some sort of metabolic disease where he cannot absorb some nutrient , raising him like any other giant breed imo would be sufficient , and in his best interest .......... dog foods didn't randomly come up with their formulas , well possibly some of the newer trendy brands may have , but there is real science behind todays kibble .......... I know an orthopedic vet with 31yrs experience , he told me in 31yrs he has seen maybe 2 dogs he felt needed supplemented ..........is your dogs problem nutritional ? having raised the dog on a homemade diet , no telling .....I know folks who have raised their pups on raw without any issues , but they have decades in experience in feeding raw , it's a fulltime job for them ....... ask someone who raises great danes how they feed their pups ........ poor acetabulum development is not confined to giant dogs ...... the chart below is claimed to be the average of thousands of great dane dogs over decades .

http://www.chromadane.com/index.php...l-breed-info/103-height-weight-data-for-danes Birth weight: 1-2 lbs Week 1: 2-3 lbs Week 2: 3-5 lbs Week 3: 4-7 lbs Week 4: 5-8 lbs Week 6: 10-20 lbs Month 2: 15-30 lbs (13-17") Month 3: 30-45 lbs (17-22") Month 4: 50-65 lbs (21-25") Month 5: 65-85 lbs (25-30") Month 6: 70-100 lbs (27-32") Month 7: 75-110 lbs (27-33") Month 8: 80-115 lbs. (27-34") Month 9: 85-120 lbs. (28-34") One year: 90-135 lbs (28-36") Full grown: 100-190 lbs (28-38")--> For males: 135-170 lbs. & 33-36" is typical. for females: 110-140 lbs. & 30-33" is typical.

 

[davidtq]

I assumed on 9/22 he was at least 21weeks , he is a big dog , but unless he has some sort of metabolic disease where he cannot absorb some nutrient , raising him like any other giant breed imo would be sufficient , and in his best interest .......... dog foods didn't randomly come up with their formulas , well possibly some of the newer trendy brands may have , but there is real science behind todays kibble .......... I know an orthopedic vet with 31yrs experience , he told me in 31yrs he has seen maybe 2 dogs he felt needed supplemented ..........is your dogs problem nutritional ? having raised the dog on a homemade diet , no telling .....I know folks who have raised their pups on raw without any issues , but they have decades in experience in feeding raw , it's a fulltime job for them ....... ask someone who raises great danes how they feed their pups ........ poor acetabulum development is not confined to giant dogs ...... the chart below is claimed to be the average of thousands of great dane dogs over decades .

Im almost convinced the weakness of his diet is Vitamin D, he doesnt spend much of the day outdoors, his food hasnt been supplemented for it, he eats no oily fish, no mushrooms, and only a little liver which unfortunately has a counter productive Vitamin A to Vitamin D ratio. Vitamin D is well supplemented in Kibble Foods about 55 mcg / 100g, Vitamin D is contained in very very few natural foods . Poor vitamin D, or a bad vitamin A to Vitamin D ratio would both cause a loss of bone calcium. I could supplement Vitamin D to the same level as in kibble foods, Ive got a list now of every nutrient and the levels recommended for dry food. Its one heck of an effort though to gather the numbers for raw ingredients etc to match it all up.

Im going to go with Arden Grange Junior Food, its 1.4% calcium. Im still absolutely convinced that having low calcium in his bones and being on the edge as far as growth rates goes that a bump to calcium is important particularly as I want him to remineralize his bones without me having to judge supplement levels (which is a natural process, bones act as calcium stored for the body and will leach calcium when levels are low or vitamin d is low and regain it when the situation corrects itself). Im going to monitor the situation though, Last thing I want is him having to choose between too many calories or insufficient nutrition for growth. Looking at the feed ammount table He is on the second week of the third row age range (22 weeks range 21-32 weeks), and in the last colloumn for body weight already - He weighed in at 45.2 today just under the 100lb mark, but Tuesday is his weekly weigh day for the chart, just wanted to see how he was going...

Not sure what Im going to do when he reached the end of the weight chart before needing to move on to the next age range...

 

[marke]

I believe if he had a vitamin d deficiency you would see it in all his joints and bones , not just a lack of acetabulum depth ...... give him fish oil , it should at worst be harmless ...... i'd find him a quality kibble and start with the least amount for his age and weight , and never look at the recommended amount again , just look at the dog ...... you talked about wolf pups , wild dogs are almost never dysplastic , and usually the ones that survive to adulthood have had to survive starvation at some point in their growth ....... I had a dog that weighed 150-160lbs as an adult , she had a problem as a pup and became anorexic , the vet and myself thought she may starve to death , she lived to almost 9 , died from cancer , she was orthopedically perfect , i'd guess she would have ofa'ed good or excellent .......