Ethical breeding? Future breeder really questioning past/present practices.

[wheelsonmeals]

I posted some of this in another thread, and was asked to move it along so I'm gonna crop it up here. The original thread was talking about inbreeding line breeding and ethics. My post was specifically dealing with ethics, outcrossing,line and inbreeding. I know the difference between the three and believe all are effective methods when done with a purpose, up to a point. Before I start I would like to give a shout out to the people that do put in the due diligence, working and culling their dogs regardless of breed type, pure or not.

Many Dogo breeders believe that in just a generation of breeding to a standard of anything but the standard set in 1947 is the beginning to a new breed. Now think about all the changes to breed standard most mastiffs have undergone. By the definition of the youngest and currently most tested "purebred" mastiff; we can see that mostly these breeds are big dogs that resemble mastiffs. A title that went from battle tested multi purpose working stock, to show room loafing and PP laughing stock. I think mastiff is a title to be earned, in my opinion a bluetick isn't a coonhound till it chews fur!

Many people don't know what they want to begin with, and don't realize it's hard to produce dogs with working capabilities. All dogs were originally bred for a purpose; in any breed a percentage of them is better suited to being a lovable couch dog than perform the function for which they were created. That said the ability to bask in the sun isn't worth reproducing; this is where culling and puppy placement come into play. If you want a house dog ask a working breeder for one, they still have them. Don't take a cull breed it to a cull,pocket the quick cash and think you did something helpful. If you can't handle a breed, don't?!

I would also would like to point out this isn't a contained incident only seen in these dogs. This is a problem affecting dogs from Mastiffs all the way down to terriers and everywhere in between.
I don't know about y'all but I've seen several articles talking about the collapse of the mastiff breeds. Since the invention of kennel clubs we've seen a decline in the functionality of virtually every breed, but especially associated with mastiffs.

I'm gonna throw up a couple up links highlighting some points, and give credit to some of the people that have lead me to believe this way.

Dogo Argentino - Argentine Dogo : The Original US Breeder Upholding the Standard! : Las Pampas Kennels : Los Andes Kennels : Puppies for Sale
For the stuff I said about the dogo standard.They ask buyers not to interbred with lesser dogs.Funny to me because the originators had no problem mixing it up them in the creation of his superior one. Kind selfish seeing as this breed wouldn't exist if they were held to their own standards, and the potential this dog could have as a new outcross for other mastiffs.

I have too much respect for this program! Mastiff "hybrids" outdoing at least 90% of todays "pure" mastiffs on every level.
Visual History of Bull and Mastiff Dogs | Midgard Kennels The author brings up a lot of great examples of how these dogs have been degraded throughout the years. This site is also providing proof that outcrossing with a purpose in mind,hard testing, and culling can provide superior offspring.

Highlighting The creation and maintenance of any breed is only possible from existing stock or hybrids.
JAMES HINKS - Hinks Old Tyme Bull Terriers It would seem that there are no breeders following his practices of outcrossing to dalmatian, pitbulls, or terriers. And as a result this breed is a deformed shell of its predecessors.

Showing the health benefits of dedicated outcross and how little it affects the breed dimensions.While providing proof even the AKC is starting to readjust its beliefs.
luadalmatians These people are doing the dalmatian a big favor. How many generations of Dalmatians have had pain just using the bathroom? Given the breeds past popularity and current rarity probably too many. The fact some would purposely deny a dog healthy urinary tract in the pursuit of purity is asinine. Fixing this problem and getting recognized took nearly 40 years.


Does anyone think that taking a more traditional breeding approach to dogs is the ethical way to proceed in the future? It seems that in the last hundred years people have been trying there best to undo the previous couple centuries worth of work that created these dogs. Not only has it led to health and temperament problems, it's a major slap in the face to all the people who developed these breeds in the first place.


No breed of dog is perfect, but some are working on being completely shot out. Show bred Neo's are just sad, Great danes are getting frail, the DDB bite and athleticism are getting worse constantly, and the OEM just like most of the others listed have poor dispositions as a true guard dog. Strict line and inbreeding have left them deficient in one manner or the other.


Its kinda funny to propose but in so many words:Follow tradition of taking from the best health and work tested representatives of each breed,"hybridizing"( inbred hybrid dogs) while continuing to test and cull the offspring to ensure a healthy future for these breeds.


The last time I posted this I got a couple replies talking about this Creating a new breed. Most of these breeds have been used for hundreds of years in the formation of each other, and used for homogenous functions. I fail to see how anything New would be produced.It would seem that something traditional would be produced; and the genetic bombshells surrounding us today are a new breed.


DDBxDogo.The Dogue de Bordeaux was used when creating the Dogo Argentino,and has little potential for improving the dogo any further.But at this point the Dogo could help recreate/ save the DDB as a breed.The options are open though maybe a dash of American bulldog (they're developed from small mastiffs). You could even back cross with the Am bullies that are already pit bull DDB crosses and get a closer historical representation of the french mastiff.


The Neos, Cane, and Presas were interbred for a long time and would be a logical bunch to cross and select from again. Why did breeders stray from a proven system laid out by originators? I bet rotisserie chickens turn less than traditional Mastino breeders in the grave.


I think Between the Tosa Boerboel Fila Great Dane and OEM one could eventually own what was once considered an English Mastiff.



We've seen where exclusive in/line breeding takes us and what it gives us. It gives us greater consistency and flaws, leading to even more extreme versions of the former. If you're not making outcrosses testing and culling then how do you know you aren't on a plateau headed for the other side? Are you even locking down the right traits, or even reproducing the same breed for that matter? And to the people that are aware they are headed downhill, and continue to hurt the ones bank rolling them shame on you! Way to start the trend of back tracking in agricultural evolution, you're a real pro LOL.

Any opinions about all this non-sense?

 

[alejandro]

I agree with you in mostly everything(and i also think many other things you left out), what worries me is the world "cull", just as you many people use it and give it many meanings, so what you mean by culling, exactly.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I understand your points but you are asking for a change to human nature which is unlikely to happen.

First when these breeds were developed they were made for a specific purpose, which for the most part they are no longer required for so new jobs have to be made/found and the dogs adapted to the new jobs.

I have no problem with those people that have a desired goal and breed bandogges or something similar as long as they are taking the same steps as those trying to preserve the breed. Meticulous records on who was bred where, to produce what, the results, health testing on the parents, etc. The problem is not the dogs loosing what they originally it is people's greed causing the issue and breeding dogs that should not be bred. That is human nature and unless you are going to change how those people think you are not going to change any direction of how things in this world go. It is the same in dogs, horses, etc.

From the stand point of a Corso the last thing we need is to bring in another breed, we are struggling enough to produce consistent type as we are still getting far too many genetics expressing from breeds that were used in recovery. Temperament is important, is one of the big things for me but it is also a total dog and when you can look at 50 CC breeders and not see consistency then bringing in new genetics for just temperament at this point is in my opinion not going to help. Find a corso that looks like a corso and has the temperament you desire.

There are also varying view points on what correct temperament is for my breed. Is it a dog that should be hands off to everyone except the owners? A dog that if the owners say the situation is fine then the dogs are fine, and evaluate each new situation for a threat? It is a dog that you can't put in a show ring? And who's opinion do you trust on who is right and knows what is best? I got the meet two very important gentleman in my breed this summer, one being considered on of the originals in the recovery of the breed and his insights were wonderful to hear.

I don't believe in entirely line-breeding with no new genetics any more than I believe that always out-crossing is going to get you anywhere in the end as you are always dealing with new genetics coming into you program. There is a balance that I hope those leading the future but regardless of one's ideas mother nature is also something that must be taken into consideration, she is quite good at making a laughing stock of those with the best laid plans.

 

[Dan]

Hi Wheelsonmeals
I found that a really interesting article.
I'm no expert on breeding but certainly there seems to me to be too much emphasis on "purity" of breeds.
It's as if some people think that all the mixing that created a breed or type magically stops at some point and that anything not "pure" after that point is a "mutt".
Some people also seem to assume that just because a dog is from a certain breed, it will necessarily and inevitably behave in a certain way (particularly in terms of protection work) - this just isn't so.
Quite apart from the way some breeds have become less physically capable , others have become temperamentally unsuitable for their original work.
Rottweilers certainly seem to have "softened" a lot over the last 15 years or so (in the UK at least).
I'll look out for other articles on the subject as it really is fascinating.

 

[wheelsonmeals]

Thanks for replying!
I'm gonna try to do this in order.

Alejandro- Basically what I mean by culling is taking the dogs that don't further the onward and upward trend of the breeding programs goals out of the program. It's an area with great controversy because what one person thinks is a cull another claims it to be a foundation stud or bitch. Which leads people to thinking that it's a broad term. It's very definable, but it's application is strictly up to us humans and up for interpretation. I generally mean neutering or spaying. It really depends on why you are removing the dog from the breeding program though. If it just didn't perform has a underlying health problem or isn't even close to resembling what you're breeding for give it the snip and find a home for it. In almost any breed if the dog is skiddish,lashes out against its owner without cause, or attacks a neighborhood child the dog should be put to sleep. I got examples of it applied to breeds if you'd like me to elaborate.

Mary/black shadow- Mother nature must've heard my parents plans for me lol, great looking dog in you're avatar.I get what your saying about human nature, and the realistic accomplishment of this being a pipe dream.

They were all created for a specific function in mind, and it had nothing to do with looks or pedigree.The mastiffs all had pretty similar jobs, and I think they placed a higher value on a true utilitarian worker than what we see today.I think people who breed should have a specific job they give the dogs,otherwise its pure puffery when they make claims about the animals they produce. The job shared between the Presa and Cane is virtually indistinguishable to the functions carried out by each other,a past Dogue, or even a modern Dogo. But this is where I'd stop drawing from looks and start dealing with functionality and natural inclination as a guide for breeding instead of strict lineage. Instead of having a hodge podge collection of attitudes in a uniform body literally producing inconsistent results every litter; you'd have greater conformity in attitude and workability but greater variation in appearance.

One question I have is doesn't the difference in the type of dogs being produced by CC breeders around the world, make it easier to select for a pair that compliment each other to fully link up for a total package?Whether or not this is about attitude or crossed in blood I'd assume this is why Cane Corsos still enjoy a decent percentage of functionality. The thought that there is only one acceptable attitude for any breed is asinine,especially when no thought is given to varying degrees. These are still individual beings that display a range of emotion and have different attitudes. Nobody thinks the CC should be selected for pure companionship, just certain levels of intolerance to a potential threat right?

One of the things that I saw in the bull terrier article that I would like to note was the need for 2 outcrosses as well as a standard type.All were accounted for, called bull terriers, and were shown as such.I think its crucial in understanding the way that the italians went about the health of their beloved dogs, and a general guide for who's breeding practices were right seeing as they created the breeds to begin with. What did the old timers say to you about the road ahead?

Dan- You've got it right about all that Purity business, elitist BS. We created a system that only worries about Labeling everything and if it doesn't fit the cookie cutter standard its garbage and to be thrown out.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

If you breed strictly for functionality and work ability and give no thought to the actual appearance it ceases being a CC or a Dogo or anything else. It simply becomes a mutt that works. Don't get me wrong all dogs started or were recovered with genetics from other dogs, but at some point all those breeds had individuals that said, this is correct. This is what the breed should be in looks, temperament, behaviour, etc. There are lots of breeders that choose to not even look twice at what that means, breeding dogs simply because they paid for them, mixing them randomly without a thought for the historic significance of some of the ancient breeds.

There are very few places that still require these breeds for what they were originally bred for, so they have had to adapt to a new jobs. Some of the breeds have the versatility to do this, others have not.

The difference in appearance in the CC at present is not a positive thing. Do you believe that a dog with a severe undershot that is being sold like wild fire can actually work all day like the dogs of old? For those that fall in love with a breed (at least before these latest fads) appearance is a big part of it. Do corso still have a good number of functional dogs? I guess it depends on the function you are looking for but we have had a huge increase in dogs that have skiddish or overly aggressive temperaments being bred by people like you describe. They put two dogs together, regardless of genetics or understand the make up behind them then sell them as breeding stock and the cycle continues. Taking extremes and breeding them together in hopes of the breed meeting in the middle, you aren't likely to get the desired result. You will get a percentage that will hopefully will if you choose to go that route but there are no guarantees when doing so as each puppy pulls from each parent and predicting which genes they will pull from which, while studying pedigrees and lineage and others from similar pairings you hope you have a handle on it can all quickly go awry. Breeding isn't black and white, and while it would certainly make it far easier if genes behaved in a certain manner that I want them too I have yet to have mother nature be kind enough to not decide to show me who is boss on more than one occasion. I don't think I have ever said that the corso is one temperament or one attitude, as there are varying degrees in one litter but does that mean that you should breed whatever you want as long as it works without taking into account the other aspects of the breed and that they will have to function in society or end up on BSL lists? We live in a society that does not view animals the same way, horses were used on farms, as transportation, etc. Now they are kept for pleasure often spending huge amounts of time in pastures as they can be seen as a social status.

I have no issue with those that choose to breed CC a certain way to preserve what they think the breed should be used for, but you are hoping to turn and entire world's way of thinking and convince them that pets are not a valid reason to own these breeds. That screams far too much like a PETA argument to me, perhaps that companion dog that you don't agree with is also used to protect the house and home, and his/her owners view that as a very important job when they have children or valuables in there. Who gets to dictate what is a valid job for versatile breeds?

I am not an elitist but I believe if you are breeding you better have a plan and a damn good one based on the number of dogs in a shelter that need homes these days. I think if you are going to breed, even mixes you should be held to the same standards that I have to hold myself to when breeding. Proving a dog's worth (if it is for workability then I guess working the dog in what that owner views as a job), health checking for genetic issues and with mixing checking for health issues that plague both of those breeds not just one or the other and only keeping those that meet the criteria that the breeder should have set in place before the breeding takes place.

Finding individuals that can or will do this as the $$ can quickly add up to be throwing away puppies or fixing/culling animals that do not meet the criteria, are likely to be few and far between.

Hemi thanks you for the compliments by the way, she is a stately old girl but would not be considered a working dog, not due to her temperament which I personally love but due to her appearance which would not allow her to function in the manner required.