How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

[jcook]

How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

I was talking to some people today and they said I should not be measuring out 80% meat 10% bone and 10%organ. I don't need to be exact and that I am hurting my dog by not making it varied enough. I should just eye ball it, because in nature they don't get a balanced diet. I like being as exact as possible. And should I feed liver with every meal? They said I shouldn't... I'm confused.

Also, Stella will not tear meat off a big slab of meat. I cut it up for her. I tried giving her a drumstick several times, she will not actually eat it. So I take the meat off the bone. She crunches it up just fine. They said it could cause intestinal perforation or she could choke. Oh and she only gets chicken bone (but not just chicken meat). Should I start leaving more meat on the bone? Is the way I'm feeding her unsafe??

I feed RAW because I want to know what Stella is eating and I want to feed her food that her body is intended to digest. I know Stella would shred her meat in the wild but wouldn't she also bury in the ground for later use. Not all things that she would encounter in the wild are good for her. I just want to feed her what is best and I didn't think cutting up her meat was bad, but if it isn't I will slowly teach her to shred her food.

Also, what are the main reasons a dog who is the RAW experiences intestional blockage and intentional perforation? How do I best prevent that? It's my main fear with RAW feeding.

 

[ZoeOwner]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

1. Dogs are not carnivores. They are omnivores. Dogs are NOT domesticated wolves. They are NOT evolved to live in the "wild". They have evolved to eat a varied diet of human-type foods. Your dog needs to get a significant percentage of her calories from fat and also non-grain carbs - not just protein. While the kibble foods may not be as good as a raw diet, the proportions that the premium kibble makers use are about right. It's usually about 25% protein.

2. Modern domesticated meat animals are extremely genetically modified from what they were like even 100 years ago. Most especially chickens. Unless you are feeding your dog heirloom chickens that you raise yourself, the "bones" are almost incomparable to what an actual chicken bone should be like. Because of this it's a bad idea to feed your dog chicken bones, even raw bones. While it's true that cooking them is especially bad and makes them splinter, even uncooked bones of modern chickens are likely to shatter and cause problems.

3. Feeding a dog raw food on occasion or as part of its diet is a great idea. Feeding an all raw diet is a stupid fad which is not backed up by any reputable scientific evidence whatsoever. Again, dogs ARE NOT WOLVES. They never evolved to live by hunting down game in the wild. They supplement their diets that way, true, but they are also evolved to eat cooked scraps from humans. (Though not modern scraps, as our modern diets are horribly unnatural.) They need cooked vegetables, non-grain starches, and even cooked meat as a significant part of their diet. I really encourage you to do some real research - meaning that you look at multiple credible scientific sources, not just the people who tout the "raw food" fad diet.

 

[jcook]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

Hmm interesting. I have done extensive research on RAW diets. But I still hear varying viewpoints. I have access to great scholarly articles because I'm a college student at 3 different schools. Plus I know how to find scholarly information and I am very critical consumer of information. I have tried to find true scientific research on RAW diets for dogs but they all refer to bacteria. So if you have some great information please share I am always eager to learn more.

So, I imagine that they put calcium in dog food, are you saying that the calcium in dog kibble is better than feeding a chicken bone? Dont most dog food companies use the same chicken I feed my dog, but they have to cook the chicken, thus cooking out some nutrients in the chicken then supplement the food, correct ? I just want to know what is best to feed my dog...

I'm not sure i understand what you are suggesting. Cooked meats, some raw, some fruit, some veggies, and some non grain carbs? No bone?

I'm not sure i agree with you about the "extreme" genetic modification of dogs within the last hundred years. Ant significant modification of a genome through selective breeding takes hundreds of years.... I haven't looked into that much though, I just happen to know a thing or two about genetics and that immediately stood out to me as incorrect. I will look into it more though

 

[ruthcatrin]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

ZoeOwner, just so you're aware there's ALOT of us on here who feed raw....

I don't feed raw because "its what the wolves eat!!!" I feed raw because my dogs ARE healthier on it. I feed raw because I got pissed at the pet food companies. I feed raw so that I KNOW what my dogs are getting without having to worry about sources for supplements and weird preservatives, and other such STUFF getting added to the foods.

There is a thought process for raw that does add vegi's and fruits, I don't feed that because I find it harder to balance out that way. My dogs get fruit and vegi's as treats. Also dogs have a shorter digestive system than humans, digesting large quantities of vegetable matter is HARD on their system. They may not be obligate carnivores like cats, but they are carnivores.

There is ALSO a thought process for raw that insists that "measuring and percentages" is totally un-needed and just feed your dog "meat, some bone and some organ" and it'll be balanced! "After all thats how nature does it!" The problem with that line of thought is that unless you're litterally feeding whole prey its NOT "balanced by nature". The large majority of us are feeding meat from this animal (or animalS), organs from this other animal, bone from this 3rd animal....therefor some percentage and measuring is required to ensure that you're balancing out the requirements of what your dog eats. I recently ran into one of this group on another message board. He insists that HIS version of raw came FIRST, and its BEST, and of COURSE its balanced, but he couldn't explain HOW its balanced other than "balanced by nature!!!" and every time I pointed out that he said he isn't feeding whole prey therefor its not balanced by nature he got even more stuck up and rude, and just kept insisting that HIS version of raw was better, and he's helped 100s!!! of people switch and its PERFECT!!!!! He also insisted that there was NO NEED to explain HOW it was balanced cause, after all, the majority of humans don't have a clue how THEIR diet is balanced therefor they shouldn't care how their dog's diet is balanced. He managed to get himself banned from the board by insisting on turning every thread he posted in into an arguement on raw. To say I wasn't impressed was an understatement. If his line of thinking is how that whole subculture of raw thinks that I have no interest in interacting with any of them.

There WAS just a study done that says that dogs are genetically different enough from wolves that they can digest starches just fine. I've not read it yet. And honestly I'm not sure I care. I've never said that raw was ideal and perfect for every dog, much less every owner. There are dogs out there that HAVE to have grains in their kibble to have good digestion and there are dogs who can't have any grains. Every dog is different and I've always believed that.

Intestinal blockages: make sure that all bone you feed is raw and chewable, and try to make sure that she's actually chewing it. Raw bone SHOULD digest even if its not chewed, but I suppose in theory a whole intact chicken wing could pass through the stomach still intact enough to cause intestinal problems. I'd be more worried about the non-edibles she might eat causing problems than the raw bone. On the yahoo board for raw feeders most of the "OMG, I think a BONE is STUCK!!" end up being nothing more than constipation cause they fed to much bone. I can't recall the last time I saw one that turned out to REALLY have a bone stuck in the intestine.

 

[VentiandMe]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

I've read studies (for what that's worth) that dogs digestive system IS made to eat meats/bones, ie raw meat like in the wild. Shorter intestines, stronger stomach acids to break down proteins/bones faster for quick absorption and this also limits the risk of health issues due to old/rancid meats...often which are found in the wild. Carnivores have this type of digestive track..NOw, I'm sure they CAN eat other stuff (veggies, grains, cheese, trash, etc) if they had to, to live...but dogs will show a bias towards raw meat and I don't need a study for that...I did my own and its conclusive...My EM loves the raw meat!! Carry on....

 

[TN Dogues]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

I raise chickens on our farm- both modern 'meat birds' and the 'heirloom' breeds. I butcher both and have yet to see any disernable difference in bone structure. The only difference is the meat birds have much more 'breast' meat and have a better feed to meat ratio. And my dogs have no trouble eating the RAW bones of either type of chicken.

 

[cwayaustx]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

Trying to be on my best behavior here but Zoe you might want to reconsider the way you present yourself. If youre going to come here calling a good number of our members stupid fad followers you might want to present some proof to back up those statements up. The way youre talking in this and other threads maybe you can also share your credentials, I for one would love to find out where exactly you learned everything there possibly is to know about mastiffs.

 

[jcook]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

Trying to be on my best behavior here but Zoe you might want to reconsider the way you present yourself. If youre going to come here calling a good number of our members stupid fad followers you might want to present some proof to back up those statements up. The way youre talking in this and other threads maybe you can also share your credentials, I for one would love to find out where exactly you learned everything there possibly is to know about mastiffs.

thank you, I am glad I am not alone on this thought. I looked at some previous posts on yours Zoe, and honestly, I felt you were very offensive. Looking back on my response in this thread I may have reacted a little too strong. I had just had people get on my case because I dont give Stella a whole duck and just let her go at it. I was literally told that I was doing my dog a disservice and that measuring out the 80/10/10 was unacceptable. I was also told that I probably learned how to feed my dog RAW by watching too many cartoons... I am by no means a dog nutrition expert. But I didn't just switch my dog over night to raw because i thought it would be "cool". I am trying very hard to do what is best for my dog. I appreciate that you gave some advice but I still dont understand exactly what you were suggesting, it seemed like a lot of unsubstantiated criticism. I see now that the genetics comments was in reference to chickens, not dogs, i apologize for thinking you said that about dogs. and I never said I dont give my dog occasional fruits and veggies or other supplements. The fact of the matter is that there is not extensive research/data about raw feeding, this means a lot of things are a matter of personal opinion/preference.

I am going to start leaving meat on the bone for Stella. oh, and I do feed her bones from rabbits, duck, and turkey, but because i dont know where to get rabbit I just get a pre made RAW meal that has rabbit with rabbit bones and organs (all ground-up). I think I am going to take the skin off first to see if that will make her more likely to eat it. She has eaten chicken wings and some other meat covered bones, but she usually leaves those pieces in the bowl and refuses to eat them.

 

[Tailcreek]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

If a dog gets 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organ each and every day or over the course of a week or two that is perfectly acceptable. Unless there is a individual medical reason of that particular dog to measure closely every day it is otherwise not necesary.

Is Stella fairly new to eating raw? Some dogs can take a little time to get used to eating larger pieces of food. You could try smashing the chicken drumsticks with a mallet first. It will still be whole but less chewing will be required until she gets more accustomed to this food. Intestinal blockages from raw bones are extremely rare. Choking can hapen, it is more likely to happen with a dog who is new to eating raw and is consuming his/her food very fast and not breaking the food into small enough peices before trying to swallow them. Raw bones ar pliable and easily digestible by dogs, except for the long bones of large ungulates (deer, moose, bison, cows etc).

Yes, wild carnivores will bury excess food for later consumption. Their digestive systems are able to handle the bacterial load that occurs with this process.

Cutting up her meat is not "bad". Yet, there are more benefits with having her eat whole items...healthier teeth & gums, works her neck & jaw muscles & is more mentally stimulating.

Jennifer
www.thenaturalcarnivore.com
www.tailcreekmastiffs.com

 

[jcook]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

Thank you for your response.

Cutting up her meat is not "bad". Yet, there are more benefits with having her eat whole items...healthier teeth & gums, works her neck & jaw muscles & is more mentally stimu

how big should I make the pieces? I dont cut them very small, she still has to chew a little.

 

[Tailcreek]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

Thank you for your response.



how big should I make the pieces? I dont cut them very small, she still has to chew a little.

For the most benefit I would leave her food in a big of pieces as possible. Don't do any cutting unless it's to portion out food that is for another day's meal.

Jennifer
www.thenaturalcarnivore.com
www.tailcreekmastiffs.com

 

[jcook]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

thanks, I will give it a shot. ha Stella is going to be so confused. If she refuses to eat it should I just put it away and let her get the point where she is really hungry (that way she will be more motivated to try and eat it)?

 

[ruthcatrin]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

Trying to be on my best behavior here but Zoe you might want to reconsider the way you present yourself. If youre going to come here calling a good number of our members stupid fad followers you might want to present some proof to back up those statements up. The way youre talking in this and other threads maybe you can also share your credentials, I for one would love to find out where exactly you learned everything there possibly is to know about mastiffs.

Lol! So polite! I was thinking the same thing, very much coming across like they're trying to start a fight....

 

[Tailcreek]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

thanks, I will give it a shot. ha Stella is going to be so confused. If she refuses to eat it should I just put it away and let her get the point where she is really hungry (that way she will be more motivated to try and eat it)?

Yes, exactly

Jennifer
www.thenaturalcarnivore.com
www.tailcreekmastiffs.com

 

[VentiandMe]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

Well she will probably lick at it for a while...my EM did..and then finally start nom noming on it once she figures out its food. I was more weirded out the first time watching him eat than he was.

 

[DennasMom]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

JCook - I saw your post on the other forum, and would have responded there, but I know my response would have been rejected from that list. They can be a bit fanatical over there. I love that they say you MUST feed 80/10/10... but then their experts say "oh, I don't do that"... sigh.

I portion out an 80/10/5/5 mix on a weekly basis, then just feed at will during the week (I do still weigh each meal to make sure the total will last all week, though). So I know Denna is getting her "whole prey model" mix at least weekly. Day in and day out is different. Most days she gets her bit-o-liver with breakfast. But some days I'll give her 1/4 of a 12lb turkey around noon and that's it for the day. She gets that piece outside, and can take ~20 minutes to chomp through it.

Most days, she gets chunked pork and beef. Each 'chunk' is about 6oz. That's what fits best in the container I have in the fridge. It's big enough that she has to chew and not just swallow the pieces, but she can pick them up from her bowl and not need to put them on the floor, too - which keeps things a little cleaner in the house.

For bone, I mostly use poultry - either half a chicken I cut up, or I picked up some chicken quarters on sale. We went through a lot of turkey over the holidays, too... when they were available at good prices. Denna once swallowed a whole chicken thigh, which had me worried... but it was digested, no problem. Some of the turkey bones are worse - they're bigger and harder. Plus, when she goes through a 1/4 turkey, that's a LOT of bone at once. I'd say 1 out of 3 times she's had the turkey, she's vommitted up a few bits that didn't want to go all the way through. They were small pieces, so I think her stomach just said "enough!". She's also eliminated bone fragments out the other direction - nicely lined up for transport. That doesn't seem to cause her any grief, either. The yahoo list people also said that was completely normal.

I do keep reading up on this "fad" diet... and a friend sent me this link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...510-11e2-85f5-a8a9228e55e7_story.html?hpid=z2
Which I thought was really interesting.

I find Zoe's suggestion that modern chicken bones are not the same as wild poultry bones interesting. In today's world of genetically modified food crops, we are definitely eating stuff our anccestors would not recognize. But, I think it's probably 80-90% similar. I do sign up for venison and other interesting food items when my raw food coop offers them, so I get Denna additional variety - which may help fill in any gaps left by the domestication process & feedlot practices.

I also read on Dr. Mercola's site about some studies which found dogs on the raw diet who also got some portion of veggies (especially greens and cruiciferous versions) had lower instances of cancer. So I'm very glad Denna loves her broccolli (frozen broccolli stems are one of her favorite afternoon treats).

I'm with Ruth - I feed raw because I'm a control freak and I want to know what my dog is eating. I was also getting tired of running around to 3 or 4 different stores looking for the last bag of MY kind of kibble on the shelf. And, being able to ignore the increasing frequency of kibble recalls is a major side-benefit.

I'll also add - since Denna was given an "excellent" on her recent health exam at the vet - our vet is not against raw feeding, but she mentioned she has seem more instances of malnutrition with dogs on a home-prepared diet than those on kibble... So I think knowing the proper balance and staying educated is a necessity when we take on control of our fur-kid's diet.

Whew. Sorry for the long post!

 

[jcook]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

Ya I was feeling very discouraged that day. I had one forum of people tell me that im clearly an idiot for only feeding my dog raw bones lol, totally misunderstood my post. Then "Mr. know-it-all Zoe" starts throwing out crazy information that made my mind want to explode... so I need to raise my own chickens if I want to feed chicken bones?! nooo problem! lol
I am going to slowly change up the way I feed her, but for right now I am still going to measure things lol, I am not comfortable yet with just eye-balling.

I have a new issue/question that I will post in a new thread. Thank you for your support guys!

 

[ruthcatrin]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

I do have to admit that I don't weigh out every portion. I mark the bags as 5lbs pork or 1lb beef liver or the like, and then eyeball portions off of that. But I do weigh it before I freeze it for storage so I know whats what.

 

[jcook]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

I do have to admit that I don't weigh out every portion. I mark the bags as 5lbs pork or 1lb beef liver or the like, and then eyeball portions off of that. But I do weigh it before I freeze it for storage so I know whats what.

I am sure i will get to that point one day. But Ive only been doing this for a little over a month. I just have people telling me to make sure her diet is complete and balanced. Plus weighing it out has taught me what the appropriate portions should look like. one day i seriously eye balled everything because I didnt have time to be exact.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Re: How much does feeding RAW need to mimic a dogs "natural" diet

Yah, it took me probly close to a year to really get to the point where I was comfortable with it. But now I know how many days that 5lb package should last, and its not that hard to divide it up that way. You get used to it.